Transpennine Industrial Relations

[baz962]

which takes me back to my original comment then, offer those who don't want to work weekends or late nights a slightly lower pay, and give those who do want to a slightly higher pay. there'll be plenty of people who will be happy to be scheduled on a sunday and get a day midweek off, so you have a pool of people who will cover the more unsociable and quieter hours as well as evenings and weekends, maybe even offer them fixed early or lates (better sleep pattern = better drivers?), then you also have a pool of people who are scheduled to work during the day and week, when you have 'peak' loadings. If I could be guaranteed permanent early's I'd be fine, Im happy getting up early, but struggle to stay up late and still be useful.

Nothing stopping you applying. Even if you can get into a toc with not many Sundays. Put some ad hoc leave in , swap with other drivers etc. Won't happen straight away , but once trained I'm sure you could get out of some. Some tocs the drivers offer money to get shifts covered.

 

[muz379]

Bang on. Many people here seem to have invented this fantasy that it's "the unions" that have created these arrangements, but ultimately it's companies wanting to hire as few staff as possible. Relying on rest day working + Sundays outside is still cheaper than increasing staff numbers.

+ if you say to a load of people "we're changing the terms of your employment, if you don't like it screw off" - then plenty of people will screw off, and we'll be back to traincrew shortages, reduced timetables and "Why can't those lazy traincrew just turn up to work?"

Absolutely , as has been pointed out already countless times on this forum. The major unions on the railway want Sundays in the working week because it means a clean pensionable salary with full employment.

It's the dft protagonists who have been shy about making the necessary investment.

 

[43096]

But they don't understand what's behind these flawed agreements.

Flawed agreements need (at least) two sides to sign up to them, that's why they are called "agreements". Inevitably, both sides will need to compromise to get to the agreement, which is where flaws come in - neither side will get entirely what it wants.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Leaflets on my train this morning from the RMT. Several things which I imagine the public won't support, saying a two year pay freeze is disgraceful as I imagine many feel the same. Having a go at people who worked from home as if that makes them bad people, the government made people work from home... And also saying they want 2p per ticket for a new method of checking tickets. As I've said before that won't reasonate with the public, new technology just gets adopted in most industries.

While on the whole I get why the conductors are striking, I think the leaflets on the train will not at all capture any public support. They have hit the wrong tone all together. I'd have focussed solely on different rates of overtime for other staff as that is something that is clear and can be sympathised with by anyone.

 

[43096]

Leaflets on my train this morning from the RMT. Several things which I imagine the public won't support, saying a two year pay freeze is disgraceful as I imagine many feel the same. Having a go at people who worked from home as if that makes them bad people, the government made people work from home... And also saying they want 2p per ticket for a new method of checking tickets. As I've said before that won't reasonate with the public, new technology just gets adopted in most industries.

While on the whole I get why the conductors are striking, I think the leaflets on the train will not at all capture any public support. They have hit the wrong tone all together. I'd have focussed solely on different rates of overtime for other staff as that is something that is clear and can be sympathised with by anyone.

As usual the RMT demonstrates a staggering lack of self awareness, on the day a 3.8% rise in regulated fares comes into effect.

 

[nedchester]

Leaflets on my train this morning from the RMT. Several things which I imagine the public won't support, saying a two year pay freeze is disgraceful as I imagine many feel the same. Having a go at people who worked from home as if that makes them bad people, the government made people work from home... And also saying they want 2p per ticket for a new method of checking tickets. As I've said before that won't reasonate with the public, new technology just gets adopted in most industries.

While on the whole I get why the conductors are striking, I think the leaflets on the train will not at all capture any public support. They have hit the wrong tone all together. I'd have focussed solely on different rates of overtime for other staff as that is something that is clear and can be sympathised with by anyone.

That'll go down like a lead balloon on the same day that ticket prices go up.

 

[TheSeeker]

Leaflets on my train this morning from the RMT.

What is the policy for leaving leaflets on a train? Is it allowed? Wouldn't this open the door to all kinds of unwanted advertising?

 

[LowLevel]

Leaflets on my train this morning from the RMT. Several things which I imagine the public won't support, saying a two year pay freeze is disgraceful as I imagine many feel the same. Having a go at people who worked from home as if that makes them bad people, the government made people work from home... And also saying they want 2p per ticket for a new method of checking tickets. As I've said before that won't reasonate with the public, new technology just gets adopted in most industries.

While on the whole I get why the conductors are striking, I think the leaflets on the train will not at all capture any public support. They have hit the wrong tone all together. I'd have focussed solely on different rates of overtime for other staff as that is something that is clear and can be sympathised with by anyone.

The key to successful industrial action is to make some effort to engage with the public but ultimately forget whether they support you or not because it doesn't actually matter. Most people dislike anything that impacts them negative whether it's morally justified or not.

 

[seagull]

That'll go down like a lead balloon on the same day that ticket prices go up.

Undoubtedly. But also, a few, capable of logical thought and with their judgement not clouded by blind hatred for train crews, may just ponder over the 2.4% (2020), 1.2% (2021) and 3.8% (2022) fare rises with a small amount of surprise that it translates to 0% (2020+2021+2022 so far) increase in monetary reward for the aforementioned railway staff.
And they may conclude that, due to Covid and its effect on revenue, nobody can complain too much, a view with which I would broadly agree.
But eventually a line has to be drawn and negotiating started, which, if unable to be carried out in good faith, will inevitably lead to various actions.

 

[mpthomson]

This dispute is largely about pay parity for Sunday working. I am not sure how a professional that doesn't work Sundays is comparable. If your union isn't strong enough to stand up to the government maybe you should do something about it?

The railway often gets compared to other public sector workers such as the NHS. It should be noted that NHS staff get unsocial hours payments. These also includes payments for working after 8pm on weekdays and working Saturdays at at least 30% extra. Sundays at least 60% extra. I am sure TPE conductors would take this over payment for scans.

A significant proportion of a conductors take home pay at TPE was made from onboard ticket sales. Up until a few years ago passengers could legitimately buy on board (at full anytime rate) without risk of penalty fares or prosecution. The penalty fares scheme has taken that away from them, so many have seen a fall in income for doing the same amount of work, whilst 3rd party company's such as the Trainline have been taking that commission. Many conductors are on a lower actual take home pay for the same hours than 3 years ago.

It's only NHS staff that do. All other social care workers and independent healthcare workers who work 24/7 don't. I suspect that unsocial hours payments (less on call) is something that's under a lot of scrutiny in the DoH at the moment.

 

[Moonshot]

So in addition to TPE , Northern drivers have now voted for strike action.

 

[Jamesrob637]

So in addition to TPE , Northern drivers have now voted for strike action.

Great Northern you mean?

 

[Watershed]

Great Northern you mean?

No, Northern 'up norf'. GTR are very short of drivers, but no IR issues AFAIK.

Probably justifies its own thread if the Northern situation moves to industrial action.

 

[wobman]

So in addition to TPE , Northern drivers have now voted for strike action.

What's Notherns dispute ?

 

[Class 170101]

As usual the RMT demonstrates a staggering lack of self awareness, on the day a 3.8% rise in regulated fares comes into effect.

I'll just leave this here from our wonderful MPs

MPs to get £2,200 pay rise next month

The 2.7% increase will come in the same week millions of workers face a National Insurance hike.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[43096]

I'll just leave this here from our wonderful MPs

MPs to get £2,200 pay rise next month

The 2.7% increase will come in the same week millions of workers face a National Insurance hike.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is?

They had a 0% rise last year, and this year's is below inflation.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is?

They had a 0% rise last year, and this year's is below inflation.

Do you really think the DfT wants rail staff to have a pay rise this year?

 

[43066]

I'm not sure what the relevance of that is?

They had a 0% rise last year, and this year's is below inflation.

I’m not sure what the relevance of annual fares increase is to this particular industrial dispute, either.

You do realise the annual fares increase doesn’t directly correspond to a pay increase for railway staff, right?!

 

[Frankfurt]

They'll still claim they're penniless though

Huge profits hike at TransPennine Express revealed

The company's turnover also increased from £290.2m to £437.7m over the same period

www.business-live.co.uk

 

[Fokx]

I’m not sure what the relevance of annual fares increase is to this particular industrial dispute

If anything it’s higher PRIV fares

 

[scrapy]

What's Notherns dispute ?

Im told Aslef strike vote was over

1) Covid working practices (now resolved)
2) Lack of consultation over amended 'Omicron' timetables and rosters. Plus cuts to timetables blamed on drivers being unavailable.
3) Dismissal of several drivers on medical grounds and lack of alternative positions being found, going against previous agreements. Some of those drivers were awaiting NHS operations/treatment but waiting list extended by Covid and could have returned to driving once procedures done.
4) General breakdown in communications and industrial relations

 

[LittleAH]

They'll still claim they're penniless though

Huge profits hike at TransPennine Express revealed

The company's turnover also increased from £290.2m to £437.7m over the same period

www.business-live.co.uk

This doesn't really represent how the railway is run now though does it? National Rail Contracts are now in place.

 

[Moonshot]

Im told Aslef strike vote was over

1) Covid working practices (now resolved)
2) Lack of consultation over amended 'Omicron' timetables and rosters. Plus cuts to timetables blamed on drivers being unavailable.
3) Dismissal of several drivers on medical grounds and lack of alternative positions being found, going against previous agreements. Some of those drivers were awaiting NHS operations/treatment but waiting list extended by Covid and could have returned to driving once procedures done.
4) General breakdown in communications and industrial relations

Only points 1 and 2 appear on ballot papers. Point 3 is not how is being portrayed via the rumour mill. Only 1 driver involved and I just happen to know him personally.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This doesn't really represent how the railway is run now though does it? National Rail Contracts are now in place.

You have to understand what it looks like from the staff perspective. It looks like a smack in the face to them when they are told there’s no money in the pot and the company is broke when headlines like this are published.

 

[LittleAH]

You have to understand what it looks like from the staff perspective. It looks like a smack in the face to them when they are told there’s no money in the pot and the company is broke when headlines like this are published.

Given your position, you should then dig into it rather than chasing headlines. Fact is the money isn't there. And nothing can be done until there's been a review by government. No operators can offer anything without their say so - blaming 'management' is ultimately a lazy argument and sadly some union reps are living in a pre-pandemic world and not doing justice to their members.

Plenty of people I know in the industry across several operators are all having their budgets cut, even in passenger information and its happening in TPE too. So to equate a subsidy from government to keep the network running, and you and I in full employment when we were carrying fresh air as massive profit is nonsense.

 

[wobman]

Given your position, you should then dig into it rather than chasing headlines. Fact is the money isn't there. And nothing can be done until there's been a review by government. No operators can offer anything without their say so - blaming 'management' is ultimately a lazy argument and sadly some union reps are living in a pre-pandemic world and not doing justice to their members.

Plenty of people I know in the industry across several operators are all having their budgets cut, even in passenger information and its happening in TPE too. So to equate a subsidy from government to keep the network running, and you and I in full employment when we were carrying fresh air as massive profit is nonsense.

This argument that trains are Carryinger just fresh air is untrue, most tocs acknowledge service usage is around 70-80% of pre pandemic numbers.

Over holiday periods the numbers are even higher, it's very easy to bash unions but the profits shown by TPEs parent company reflect the true situation.

 

[Killingworth]

Given your position, you should then dig into it rather than chasing headlines. Fact is the money isn't there. And nothing can be done until there's been a review by government. No operators can offer anything without their say so - blaming 'management' is ultimately a lazy argument and sadly some union reps are living in a pre-pandemic world and not doing justice to their members.

Plenty of people I know in the industry across several operators are all having their budgets cut, even in passenger information and its happening in TPE too. So to equate a subsidy from government to keep the network running, and you and I in full employment when we were carrying fresh air as massive profit is nonsense.

Soon to be a pre-war world too. Just limiting it to Ukraine is going to have a massive effect on the cost of oil and gas and everything that depends on them directly and indirectly. We want to limit our internal disputes as much as possible. We're living in a very uncertain world.

 

[O L Leigh]

Soon to be a pre-war world too. Just limiting it to Ukraine is going to have a massive effect on the cost of oil and gas and everything that depends on them directly and indirectly. We want to limit our internal disputes as much as possible. We're living in a very uncertain world.

No doubt. What other rights do you think we should forego for the time being, you know "just in case"...?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Given your position, you should then dig into it rather than chasing headlines. Fact is the money isn't there - blaming 'management' is ultimately a lazy argument and sadly some union reps are living in a pre-pandemic world and not doing justice to their members.

perception vs reality, I get that. The trouble is perception often speaks louder than the truth and creates prejudgements and stereotypes in the process.

However I am a forward thinking and positive guy. If you are aware of who I am you will no doubt know this. As someone who wants to actively engage and resolve for the greater good of the staff and the company sadly there has been no attempt to communicate, no dialogue, no collaboration or anything from management despite what has been stated in todays email from the comms team. From the front line it indeed looks like management don’t care. That is why many members of staff are at their lowest they have ever been morale wise and are sipped off and may explain why so many voted for industrial action. I don’t want to be in this position as much as you, I would far rather take the common sense approach but until someone offers an olive branch and starts that dialogue then we remain in this Mexican stand-off position.

 

[Killingworth]

No doubt. What other rights do you think we should forego for the time being, you know "just in case"...?

Not suggesting anyone should be foregoing anything, but going straight for the ultimate sanction is how we get into war situations from which everyone tends to lose, sooner or later. Having been in an industrial dispute (with conflicting union and managerial roles) I know how difficult it is to get both sides to engage, especially once the ballot has taken place and action commenced. A relatively few staff bore the brunt of it but they held remarkably firm and the employer blinked first. 10 years later? I'd taken an enhanced early retirement package, as did many others! 25 years later most of those jobs no longer exist, and aren't coming back. Different industry but the big difference is people will always want to travel - but not necessarily by train.