Transpennine Industrial Relations

[DorkingMain]

Has this "They don't know how lucky they have it" race to the bottom attitude actually ever worked to motivate anyone? Or has it just resulted in people leaving in droves, and the people who rely on the service suffering?

Look at buses, which once were on the same level as railways in terms of pay and conditions, and have been slowly ebbed away. Has anyone actually benefitted from more and more being squeezed out of staff, or conditions gradually ground down? Is the bus industry in a better way for it?

 

[dctraindriver]

What’s so special about Sundays? Maybe train crew feel the need to be in church or some such?!

This is 2022 not 1922. A business that operates 24/7 should not be relying on volunteers for one day of the week.

I’m compelled to work Sundays on my TOC, some months 3 out of 4 weeks. I’m not moaning about that, it’s part of my working week. I don’t get paid extra it’s part of the working week. However I understand what some of my colleagues are getting at. Most of my friends have weekends off due to their work and good for them. I don’t begrudge them for having weekends off and now a Monday and Friday fair play to them. However for those of us that work shifts that’s what so special about Sundays, having a Sunday off. It can be quite demoralising missing out on family events, meeting friends for lunch doing things what a lot of the population still do and take weekends off for granted. no matter how much we are told it’s now a 24/7 society.

As for your second point, the business plan regarding staffing levels is fully at the feet of the companies/DFT and now Treasury not the unions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Nope, just get the job done.

Explains a lot why a lot of our diagrams aren’t great; get the job done. Don’t worry about the ramifications on the staff that could lead to an incident. Just tick those boxes due to the stresses you are under. I don’t envy your role and I’m sure it drives you crazy some days. I’ve edited this as I was a little blunt about your role. When I look at my weekend diagrams I am aghast at the amount of work we get, it’s not great TBH. Do you like most at my TOC WFH?

 

[nedchester]

I’m compelled to work Sundays on my TOC, some months 3 out of 4 weeks. I’m not moaning about that, it’s part of my working week. I don’t get paid extra it’s part of the working week. However I understand what some of my colleagues are getting at. Most of my friends have weekends off due to their work and good for them. I don’t begrudge them for having weekends off and now a Monday and Friday fair play to them. However for those of us that work shifts that’s what so special about Sundays, having a Sunday off. It can be quite demoralising missing out on family events, meeting friends for lunch doing things what a lot of the population still do and take weekends off for granted. no matter how much we are told it’s that it’s now a 24/7 society.

As for your second point, the business plan regarding staffing levels is fully at the feet of the companies/DFT and now Treasury not the unions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


Explains a lot why a lot of our diagrams aren’t great; get the job done. Don’t worry about the ramifications on the staff that could lead to an incident. Just tick those boxes due to the stresses you are under. I don’t envy your role and I’m sure it drives you crazy some days. I’ve edited this as I was a little blunt about your role. When I look at my weekend diagrams I am aghast at the amount of work we get, it’s not great TBH. Do you like most at my TOC WFH?

I actually think that if Sundays are not currently in your contract then there should be some enhancement in pay to compensate for Sunday being in the working week. I do also think that many TOCs are reluctant to do this because it would result in them needing to employ more staff so there are faults on both sides. But for a modern 21st Century railway there shouldn't be the need for volunteers (and that includes RDW). I accept that very occasionally there may be the need for a shout out for extra staff but this should be the exception rather than the norm.

However, coming up with comments like 'I need to see my family on Sundays' so I don't want to work Sundays are just silly.

As for the ticket check thing that is just taking the pi**. Ticket checking is just ticket checking by whatever means. Old methods of ticket checking help the company the same as new methods so a pair of eyes is the same as using the mobile device. I think it's a case of pushing your luck.

There also has to be a realisation that the railways are not swilling with money following Covid. Not it is not train crew's fault that Covid exists but sadly we are all affected by it.

It is also true that the Tories are up with a fight with the rail unions (as per their manifesto) so care should be taken not to poke the hornets nest.

 

[43066]

Has this "They don't know how lucky they have it" race to the bottom attitude actually ever worked to motivate anyone? Or has it just resulted in people leaving in droves, and the people who rely on the service suffering?

It motivates bus drivers, and others scratching around on £25k, to moan about our Ts and Cs. I’m closing in on £90k this year; I’ve earned every single flaming penny of it (why am I still awake despite not working yesterday or tomorrow?).

I know people who earn far more, with less responsibility, for tapping around on excel.

It’s interesting to compare earnings.
Another good mate of mine is an airline pilot who nets £6k per month, despite barely flying. My training as a train driver took about as long, and cost about as much, as his.

Another friend earns £500k+ per year as a partner at an accountancy firm. That really is a silly amount per month, but he gets quarterly drawings. He has complained to me before about how his three daughters’ school fees are circa. £60k per annum. Just imagine how much he has to earn, gross wise, to pay that.

These are actual real people, friends of mine. They’re decent, functional people, who don’t fixate on the earnings of others, anything like as much as certain posters on here do.

To a man, they’ve all complained about how it’s north of £6 for a jar of beer, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

It is also true that the Tories are up with a fight with the rail unions (as per their manifesto) so care should be taken not to poke the hornets nest.

Where did the Tory party manifesto state they were “up for a fight with the rail unions”?

Please can you cite it?

 

[nedchester]

It motivates bus drivers, and others scratching around on £25k, to moan about our Ts and Cs. I’m closing in on £90k this year; I’ve earned every single flaming penny of it (why am I still awake despite not working yesterday or tomorrow?).

I know people who earn far more, with less responsibility, for tapping around on excel.

It’s interesting to compare earnings.
Another good mate of mine is an airline pilot who nets £6k per month, despite barely flying. My training as a train driver took about as long, and cost about as much, as his.

Another friend earns £500k+ per year as a partner at an accountancy firm. That really is a silly amount per month, but he gets quarterly drawings. He has complained to me before about how his three daughters’ school fees are circa. £60k per annum. Just imagine how much he has to earn, gross wise, to pay that.

These are actual real people, friends of mine. They’re decent, functional people, who don’t fixate on the earnings of others, anything like as much as certain posters on here do.

To a man, they’ve all complained about how it’s north of £6 for a jar of beer, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==



Where did the Tory party manifesto state they were “up for a fight with the rail unions”?

Please can you cite it?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/23/union-says-it-will-fight-tory-pledge-to-ban-all-out-rail-strikes

 

[43066]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/23/union-says-it-will-fight-tory-pledge-to-ban-all-out-rail-strikes

Where did the Tory party manifesto state they were “up for a fight with the rail unions”?

Please can you cite it?

I’m still waiting?

 

[Signal_Box]

Exactly. Many of those working on the railway don't know how lucky they are compared to many in the public sector.

Maybe apply for one those railway jobs ?

 

[scrapy]

Teacher here. My annual pay rise last September was zero (and unless the Government changes things it will be zero this September as well).

My pay has dropped 7% in real terms since 2010. If you include the changes to pension contributions that rises to 10%.

This dispute is largely about pay parity for Sunday working. I am not sure how a professional that doesn't work Sundays is comparable. If your union isn't strong enough to stand up to the government maybe you should do something about it?

The railway often gets compared to other public sector workers such as the NHS. It should be noted that NHS staff get unsocial hours payments. These also includes payments for working after 8pm on weekdays and working Saturdays at at least 30% extra. Sundays at least 60% extra. I am sure TPE conductors would take this over payment for scans.

A significant proportion of a conductors take home pay at TPE was made from onboard ticket sales. Up until a few years ago passengers could legitimately buy on board (at full anytime rate) without risk of penalty fares or prosecution. The penalty fares scheme has taken that away from them, so many have seen a fall in income for doing the same amount of work, whilst 3rd party company's such as the Trainline have been taking that commission. Many conductors are on a lower actual take home pay for the same hours than 3 years ago.

 

[dk1]

They are being asked to check tickets just by a different method. No extra money should be needed.

There’s the railway bubble again.

Depends what agreement they have with regard to new technology. As drivers we accepted a one off payment to agree to changing our working practices in being issued with tablets receive all bulletins, WONs & emails as it was over & above our job content. In the same way we got paid to take Covid testing for training purposes.

 

[Wolfie]

And how many have had no payrise in 3 years now? That's a huge cut when you look at the rise in inflation. Maybe ok if you are mortgage free and live alone, but for many traincrew the struggle is real. There aren't too many industries where there has been no payrise in the last 3 years. And yes, we had to go out in the blackest parts of the pandemic when many where safely tucked òut of harms way at home, and risk getting infected or bringing the virus home to our families (one driver in the southwest sticks in my mind here - he picked up covid at work, gave it to his wife, who died of it!). So a little gratitude in a modest wage increase after a challenging few years would be nice thanks.

Some of us had zero pay rise for over half of the years since 2010. Based on bitter past experience HMT haven't started yet....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Staff are perfectly entitled to strike. And when they do go on strike, it impacts on service provision. It doesn't get much simpler than that. It's absolutely right that TPE guards are withdrawing their labour, as they have been offered a terrible deal.

Staff are absolutely entitled to strike. The ultimate paymaster, which is HMG in this case is absolutely entitled to take action, be that legislation or fire and hire - don't hold your breath about either not happening, in response. "Big Dog" is desperate for distractions.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Be careful not to trip up on your arrogance.

The Government are intent on cuts and up for a fight.

I work for Government. We repeatedly hear that the financial situation is dire. Some folk have a bloody rude shock coming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Teacher here. My annual pay rise last September was zero (and unless the Government changes things it will be zero this September as well).

My pay has dropped 7% in real terms since 2010. If you include the changes to pension contributions that rises to 10%.

I'm a civil servant. My take home pay in real terms (pay freezes, pension contribution rises, NI rises etc) is over 20% lower in real terms than 2010.

 

[nedchester]

This dispute is largely about pay parity for Sunday working. I am not sure how a professional that doesn't work Sundays is comparable. If your union isn't strong enough to stand up to the government maybe you should do something about it?

The railway often gets compared to other public sector workers such as the NHS. It should be noted that NHS staff get unsocial hours payments. These also includes payments for working after 8pm on weekdays and working Saturdays at at least 30% extra. Sundays at least 60% extra. I am sure TPE conductors would take this over payment for scans.

A significant proportion of a conductors take home pay at TPE was made from onboard ticket sales. Up until a few years ago passengers could legitimately buy on board (at full anytime rate) without risk of penalty fares or prosecution. The penalty fares scheme has taken that away from them, so many have seen a fall in income for doing the same amount of work, whilst 3rd party company's such as the Trainline have been taking that commission. Many conductors are on a lower actual take home pay for the same hours than 3 years ago.

Teachers don’t work Sundays? Maybe you’d like to ask a few teachers about that as I guarantee there’s many out there today who will be planning lessons, marking and other admin tasks. I’ve been there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Maybe apply for one those railway jobs ?

Which is what I did.

 

[Wolfie]

As pointed out above , all train crew realise that Sundays inside the working week will eventually happen. But it comes with a price......

With HMT that price is likely to be zero and if you are really lucky they won't screw your pension over too. I strongly fear and suspect that fire and hire is quite likely.

 

[dk1]

Some of us had zero pay rise for over half of the years since 2010. Based on bitter past experience HMT haven't started yet....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


Staff are absolutely entitled to strike. The ultimate paymaster, which is HMG in this case is absolutely entitled to take action, be that legislation or fire and hire - don't hold your breath about either not happening, in response. "Big Dog" is desperate for distractions.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


I work for Government. We repeatedly hear that the financial situation is dire. Some folk have a bloody rude shock coming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


I'm a civil servant. My take home pay in real terms (pay freezes, pension contribution rises, NI rises etc) is over 20% lower in real terms than 2010.

I'm confident we will all be fine. The railway has always evaded anything too shocking over the years. Pay talks will hopefully resume at some point although I'm in a lucky position where it & overtime are something that I don't rely on.

 

[nedchester]

Depends what agreement they have with regard to new technology. As drivers we accepted a one off payment to agree to changing our working practices in being issued with tablets receive all bulletins, WONs & emails as it was over & above our job content. In the same way we got paid to take Covid testing for training purposes.

So you state this and think it’s entirely reasonable that you get given a device that arguably makes your job easier you are ENTITLED to extra money. Really?

Meanwhile in other walks of life you get a new laptops and software, get trained on them and would be laughed out of the room for such demands.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

Some of us had zero pay rise for over half of the years since 2010. Based on bitter past experience HMT haven't started yet....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


Staff are absolutely entitled to strike. The ultimate paymaster, which is HMG in this case is absolutely entitled to take action, be that legislation or fire and hire - don't hold your breath about either not happening, in response. "Big Dog" is desperate for distractions.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


I work for Government. We repeatedly hear that the financial situation is dire. Some folk have a bloody rude shock coming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==


I'm a civil servant. My take home pay in real terms (pay freezes, pension contribution rises, NI rises etc) is over 20% lower in real terms than 2010.

Yep and as the railways are now effectively public sector then it shouldn’t be a surprise that some of this is gong to come their way.

 

[seagull]

So you state this and think it’s entirely reasonable that you get given a device that arguably makes your job easier you are ENTITLED to extra money. Really?

What gives you the right to judge that, given that you are not doing his job?

 

[nedchester]

With HMT that price is likely to be zero and if you are really lucky they won't screw your pension over too. I strongly fear and suspect that fire and hire is quite likely.

Agreed. I think fire and rehire is an appalling way to treat employees but would not be surprised if it happened on the railways.

 

[dk1]

Meanwhile in other walks of life you get a new laptops and software, get trained on them and would be laughed out of the room for such demands.

Would be time to look for a better job where I was more appreciated if that was the case & probably why so many clamber to join whenever traincrew positions are advertised. Decent pay, conditions & the backing of a good strong union are hugely beneficial to working life. Such a shame some other industry’s treat their employees so badly.

 

[nedchester]

What gives you the right to judge that, given that you are not doing his job?

So go on explain to me how giving you an iPad means you need to get more money (even a one off payment)?

 

[dk1]

So go on explain to me how giving you an iPad means you need to get more money (even a one off payment)?

It wasn’t an iPad. It was a Samsung tablet.

 

[nedchester]

It wasn’t an iPad. It was a Samsung tablet.

Same difference

The point is most employees would not think it was reasonable to ask for extra money for some new kit provided. Railway bubble again.

 

[dk1]

Same difference

Not to Apple it isn’t.

 

[Fokx]

You won’t see fire and rehire for traincrew (especially drivers!).

If the government even attempt to do that then you’re not going to have a train service for two years! You’ll be facing walk outs and having to scramble to find medically fit, competent and capable train staff to train before even running anything close to the normal timetable.

Currently I could earn more as a HGV driver (for example) than I do as a conductor and I’m very aware of that fact. I certainly won’t be staying in the role where I’m not appreciated or with poor working conditions, it’s the reason I’ve left my previous roles.

 

[nedchester]

You won’t see fire and rehire for traincrew (especially drivers!).

If the government even attempt to do that then you’re not going to have a train service for two years! You’ll be facing walk outs and having to scramble to find medically fit, competent and capable train staff to train before even running anything close to the normal timetable.

Currently I could earn more as a HGV driver (for example) than I do as a conductor and I’m very aware of that fact. I certainly won’t be staying in the role where I’m not appreciated or with poor working conditions, it’s the reason I’ve left my previous roles.

You’re assuming that all those fired don’t return to the role?

I doubt sacked train crew will find advantageous conditions of service elsewhere? I suspect that’s what the Tories will be expecting.

As I say fire and rehire is an appalling way to treat people but I wouldn’t be surprised if it came to the railways.

 

[muz379]

so a pair of eyes is the same as using the mobile devic

Let's stick to a pair of eyes then

So you state this and think it’s entirely reasonable that you get given a device that arguably makes your job easier you are ENTITLED to extra money. Really?

Productivity , like it or not it's union policy to try and win something for their members if the company tries to implement changes which makes things easier for the company . Why should the company be the one that reap all the rewards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2022 ==

You’re assuming that all those fired don’t return to the role?

I doubt sacked train crew will find advantageous conditions of service elsewhere? I suspect that’s what the Tories will be expecting.

As I say fire and rehire is an appalling way to treat people but I wouldn’t be surprised if it came to the railways.

You are right many might not leave , but as covid and the requirement to shield for many shows you only need a small percentage say 10% to leave and it suddenly makes it very difficult to run a full service .

Couple that with the fact that many of those that will stay will be hugely demotivated and you'll start to see people coming in doing the bare minimum and going home . That in itself can stuff the job up "sorry control this late runners not going now I don't want to work over my day "

Kinda like the resentment that's current festering with the many people that were invited to apply for voluntary severance and then denied it . Another DFT created mess .

 

[wobman]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/23/union-says-it-will-fight-tory-pledge-to-ban-all-out-rail-strikes

That's just a news article, I would like to see it as part of the Tory manifesto please.

Regarding tory manifestos they usually put it out there to get voted in and then they bin it. I can never understand the contempt towards traincrew shown by some people, I have friends that earn far more than me, some work in the public sector......

 

[wobman]

You’re assuming that all those fired don’t return to the role?

I doubt sacked train crew will find advantageous conditions of service elsewhere? I suspect that’s what the Tories will be expecting.

As I say fire and rehire is an appalling way to treat people but I wouldn’t be surprised if it came to the railways.

In diagramming and rosters would be the first place, that can be shipped off to others counties like call centres are nowadays. That would save a huge amount, as at my toc rosters earn as much as a driver !

 

[wobman]

You won’t see fire and rehire for traincrew (especially drivers!).

If the government even attempt to do that then you’re not going to have a train service for two years! You’ll be facing walk outs and having to scramble to find medically fit, competent and capable train staff to train before even running anything close to the normal timetable.

Currently I could earn more as a HGV driver (for example) than I do as a conductor and I’m very aware of that fact. I certainly won’t be staying in the role where I’m not appreciated or with poor working conditions, it’s the reason I’ve left my previous roles.

Very true

 

[LowLevel]

Let's stick to a pair of eyes then


Productivity , like it or not it's union policy to try and win something for their members if the company tries to implement changes which makes things easier for the company . Why should the company be the one that reap all the rewards.

I've never really had a satisfactory answer to a question I've put a few times - under BR gripping irons (ticket nippers) were totally standard items, going from the simple shape cut to denote areas/regions, to the Zifa stamper still in use today in some areas which imprinted an ID number for the inspector, headcode, date etc. Some TOCs to save a few quid stopped bothering to pay for them because they're expensive, but even then most inspectors somehow clip period tickets be it with a pen or a hole punch.

To the inspector, what really is the difference between a standard issue Zifa stamper and a scanner? You're already using the phone and in theory you might already be using a stamper too, or would have been had the TOC chosen to continue to issue them.

It would be much simpler if the RMT just admitted they wanted to attempt to replace commission, which I have no issue with, rather than the usual nonsense about wanting to share in the profits etc etc. There isn't a train operating company really making any profit at the minute

 

[Fokx]

You’re assuming that all those fired don’t return to the role?

I doubt sacked train crew will find advantageous conditions of service elsewhere? I suspect that’s what the Tories will be expecting.

Some will, large numbers won’t.

There are large numbers of drivers in the UK that are ex-BR and are approaching retirement age that will be leaving in large numbers over the next few years, those are the sort of people who would not return to work in fire and rehire practices.

Likewise on the opposite scale of the spectrum I’m fairly young in my late twenties with a fairly recent degree in marketing, and an employment background in management and HR. The railway isn’t my only employment option, and if pushed to poor working conditions I certainly wouldn’t be staying.

Advantageous conditions of service is something open to interpretation. In theory if I really wanted to I could take paycut and work less hours doing a 9-5 Monday to Friday office job with WFH. If I had kids or childcare costs this would be more attractive to me. It’s certainly more advantageous then working a Saturday payday train crush loaded with drunken revellers and finishing at 3am on a Sunday!

The life of traincrew isn’t all sunshine and roses

 

[baz962]

You’re assuming that all those fired don’t return to the role?


Some will, large numbers won’t.

There are large numbers of drivers in the UK that are ex-BR and are approaching retirement age that will be leaving in large numbers over the next few years, those are the sort of people who would not return to work in fire and rehire practices.

Likewise on the opposite scale of the spectrum I’m fairly young in my late twenties with a fairly recent degree in marketing, and an employment background in management and HR. The railway isn’t my only employment option, and if pushed to poor working conditions I certainly wouldn’t be staying.

Advantageous conditions of service is something open to interpretation. In theory if I really wanted to I could take paycut and work less hours doing a 9-5 Monday to Friday office job with WFH. If I had kids or childcare costs this would be more attractive to me. It’s certainly more advantageous then working a Saturday payday train crush loaded with drunken revellers and finishing at 3am on a Sunday!

The life of traincrew isn’t all sunshine and roses

I was thinking the same. Loads wouldn't come back. One of the main reasons that they do the job is the pay and conditions. So apparently the government are banking on train crew not getting good conditions elsewhere , but if you fire and re hire then thats to take away the conditions and then crew have less to lose by going elsewhere. Plus fire and re hire while working for individual companies like British gas , would be harder to imply over the railway. For all the talk of re nationalisation , it will still be individual private companies . Also where do you set the starting point. The tocs like LNER , which is olr and just about the highest paid toc , or the lowest paid tocs. Not only is every company on different pay , but differing amount of weekends and annual leave and turn lengths , etc. Good luck with that.