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Transpennine Industrial Relations

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wobman

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I really don’t understand when you work for an industry that is 24/7 that you should expect to contractually expect Sundays off. That sort of thing is for the dark ages.

Imagine calling for an ambulance and getting the message that the crew hadn’t volunteered to work Sunday! It’s bonkers. It’s that kind of thing that needs to be sorted out.
Sundays years ago were a very limited service compared to now (known as Sundays service) the work at depots was easily covered with voluntary overtime only.
It's in recent years Sundays have become a busy shopping day, judging how a job has changed over decades is an unfair comparison.
When many staff entered the industry Sundays were very different than they are now.....
 
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nedchester

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But knowing plenty of my colleagues will happily choose to work the Sunday for overtime, why should I feel the need to be compelled to work Sundays?
It works the same in loads of industries. Let those that want to chase the dollar work the Sundays etc and everyone is happy. If occasionally not enough volunteer then its hardly the end of the world. Better diagramming would help to solve the problem and encourage more to volunteer in the first place.

What’s so special about Sundays? Maybe train crew feel the need to be in church or some such?!

This is 2022 not 1922. A business that operates 24/7 should not be relying on volunteers for one day of the week.
 

dk1

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In order for any company to be able to increase pay, they need to have had the corresponding increase in their revenue. Using government support to pay for pay increases won't go down well with those taxpayers who themselves aren't seeing increases in their pay.

The money to pay for pay rises has to come from a genuine source of that money although I agree that there can be some smoothing out over time.
This is what we don’t quite get on the railway. That’s nothing many of us have ever known & certainly not for the last 25 years at least. An annual pay rise was a God given right. So annoyingly Covid has interrupted that Grrrr!!
 

LowLevel

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What’s so special about Sundays? Maybe train crew feel the need to be in church or some such?!

This is 2022 not 1922. A business that operates 24/7 should not be relying on volunteers for one day of the week.
If you have school age kids a Sunday is guaranteed family time is usually the answer, or a chance to socialise with 9-5 weekday working friends.

My mates work on the railway, mostly, so I've always worked lots of Sundays but it's easy to see why weekends are desirable to have off.
 

dk1

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What’s so special about Sundays? Maybe train crew feel the need to be in church or some such?!

This is 2022 not 1922. A business that operates 24/7 should not be relying on volunteers for one day of the week.
That’s quite an authoritarian attitude. Just dictate what your employees will do. I don’t think so matey, regardless of what year we currently live in.
 

43096

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If occasionally not enough volunteer then its hardly the end of the world.
That's where it falls down. As was said above, it's a seven days a week operation. It isn't good enough to not have sufficient staff to run the service just because it's a Sunday. It's also at risk from overtime bans/work to rule/barbecues/whatever excuse is current this month from the unions, as we have seen on a regular basis.
 

nedchester

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That’s quite an authoritarian attitude. Just dictate what your employees will do. I don’t think so matey, regardless of what year we currently live in.

Meanwhile outside the railway bubble that is exactly what happens in the airline industry, healthcare, retail etc etc.

I am sure railway staff would be well miffed if they turn up on a Sunday morning to go on their holidays and find their Ryanair pilot hasn’t volunteered for work.

And while I’m at it why do conductors feel they need extra payments to check tickets using the scanners. Maybe I should have got extra money when I got a new laptop?!

I know it actually costs the employers more to have Sundays in the working week by the way.

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If you have school age kids a Sunday is guaranteed family time is usually the answer, or a chance to socialise with 9-5 weekday working friends.

My mates work on the railway, mostly, so I've always worked lots of Sundays but it's easy to see why weekends are desirable to have off.

Let’s shut the railways at weekends so staff can have valuable family time. Maybe the same should apply to shops, pubs, emergency services etc
 

LowLevel

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Meanwhile outside the railway bubble that is exactly what happens in the airline industry, healthcare, retail etc etc.

I am sure railway staff would be well miffed if they turn up on a Sunday morning to go on their holidays and find their Ryanair pilot hasn’t volunteered for work.

And while I’m at it why do conductors feel they need extra payments to check tickets using the scanners. Maybe I should have got extra money when I got a new laptop?!

I know it actually costs the employers more to have Sundays in the working week by the way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Let’s shut the railways at weekends so staff can have valuable family time. Maybe the same should apply to shops, pubs, emergency services etc
The problem you have is that rightly or wrong, that's how it is. Consequently this contractual term has a value to them that the employer is unwilling to pay. If I turn around and say "I'll cash in my Sundays now for 6 grand on my salary and you still guarantee me a 5 day weekend every 3 weeks" the employer will decline.

There's no point whingeing about it if you don't see both sides. As I said, I speak as someone who doesn't care about Sundays. If you have kids the perspective changes and you have a valuable clause in your contract that protects your family life which you might be loathe to lose. On the basis that schools are unlikely to give your kids a weekday off and school them on a Sunday when it's convenient to you that is something you lose that you can't get back. This is why it is so emotive.

Ultimately these things go both ways - at some point a representative of the employer decided to do things this way and signed it off.
 

nedchester

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The problem you have is that rightly or wrong, that's how it is. Consequently this contractual term has a value to them that the employer is unwilling to pay. If I turn around and say "I'll cash in my Sundays now for 6 grand on my salary and you still guarantee me a 5 day weekend every 3 weeks" the employer will decline.

There's no point whingeing about it if you don't see both sides. As I said, I speak as someone who doesn't care about Sundays. If you have kids the perspective changes and you have a valuable clause in your contract that protects your family life which you might be loathe to lose. On the basis that schools are unlikely to give your kids a weekday off and school them on a Sunday when it's convenient to you that is something you lose that you can't get back. This is why it is so emotive.

Ultimately these things go both ways - at some point a representative of the employer decided to do things this way and signed it off.
Change is undoubtedly coming and I’d reckon that by the time of the next election there will be many changes in methods of working on the railway and no doubt a lot of industrial unrest along the way.
 

wobman

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Meanwhile outside the railway bubble that is exactly what happens in the airline industry, healthcare, retail etc etc.

I am sure railway staff would be well miffed if they turn up on a Sunday morning to go on their holidays and find their Ryanair pilot hasn’t volunteered for work.

And while I’m at it why do conductors feel they need extra payments to check tickets using the scanners. Maybe I should have got extra money when I got a new laptop?!

I know it actually costs the employers more to have Sundays in the working week by the way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Let’s shut the railways at weekends so staff can have valuable family time. Maybe the same should apply to shops, pubs, emergency services etc
It's quite an anti traincrew attitude you have, but you don't work the shifts we do and how it has an impact on our family life.
I work a different shift every day with no continuity, I can be moved with 12hrs notice 3hrs either way. I personally like to have at least the chance of having Sundays as a family day.

I find it difficult to be told about the job I have worked for decades by someone that has never actually done that job.

We realise Sundays need to be worked but shouldn't we have a input in how the methods are set out , but dictating what happens won't help the issue.
 

irish_rail

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What’s so special about Sundays? Maybe train crew feel the need to be in church or some such?!

This is 2022 not 1922. A business that operates 24/7 should not be relying on volunteers for one day of the week.
Errr the one day a week I can be guaranteed to spend time with my family.
As I said, plenty of volunteers happy to work them, so no reason to compel everyone to work them.
Oh, and when I signed up and signed my contract of employment, it was very clear Sundays where voluntary. So changing the goal posts now isn't gonna happen, sorry.
 

Starmill

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I'd not count on Eurostar, Great Central or Hull Trains having the resources to increase pay at the moment given they haven't had the same sort of support offered to the franchised TOCs.
Of course not. But if they chose to out-compete stagnating wages elsewhere, e.g. CrossCountry, Avanti West Coast etc, that would be a hypothetical option.
 

Fokx

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why do conductors feel they need extra payments to check tickets using the scanners.
It was TPE who originally offered it, not a conductor demand. Clearly TPE saw financial value in motivating staff to scan a greater number of tickets

Quite simply because you can check tickets without scanning them. It’s not an agreed method of work that a conductor MUST scan a ticket compared to visually checking it. The company wants staff to scan tickets to prevent refunds and digital fraud and allows them to see detailed journey information and greater analytics.
 

nedchester

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It was TPE who originally offered it, not a conductor demand. Clearly TPE saw financial value in motivating staff to scan a greater number of tickets

Quite simply because you can check tickets without scanning them. It’s not an agreed method of work that a conductor MUST scan a ticket compared to visually checking it. The company wants staff to scan tickets to prevent refunds and digital fraud and allows them to see detailed journey information and greater analytics.
They are being asked to check tickets just by a different method. No extra money should be needed.

There’s the railway bubble again.
 

Fokx

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Meanwhile outside the railway bubble that is exactly what happens in the airline industry, healthcare, retail etc etc.

Part of their contract.
It’s not part of conductors at TPE.

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They are being asked to check tickets just by a different method. No extra money should be needed.

It’s not needed, but it is motivational.

The cash-strapped DfT are currently paying other operators on the same lines and routes as TPE for the scanning of tickets, the benefits to the company from a marketing and insight perspective are worth the 2p.

It’s comparative to the Tesco Clubcard. You’re more inclined to use it (or in this case scan tickets) if you are financially motivated to benefit in some way, even if it is a negligible amount.

I could check 1 ticket or I could check 100, it makes no difference to me personally but it does in terms of the information gained and that’s valuable to any business including the railway.
 
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43066

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They are being asked to check tickets just by a different method. No extra money should be needed.

There’s the railway bubble again.

What do you do, out of interest?

Have you ever worked traincrew shifts? It isn’t the land of milk and honey some seem to believe.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Oh, and when I signed up and signed my contract of employment, it was very clear Sundays where voluntary. So changing the goal posts now isn't gonna happen, sorry.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
 

nedchester

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What do you do, out of interest?

Have you ever worked traincrew shifts? It isn’t the land of milk and honey some seem to believe.

Train planning and diagramming.

No I’ve not worked shifts but not sure what that has to do with it.
 

43066

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Train planning and diagramming.

Aha.

With all due respect, you should be careful what you wish for. If anyone is in a “railway bubble”, it’s your grade. Your job will be automated out of existence quicker than mine will be as a driver.

No I’ve not worked shifts but not sure what that has to do with it.

You just seem very quick to tell business end shift workers how they should be willing to work additional days. Maybe walk a mile in their shoes first?
 

Horizon22

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Ultimately the DfT want Sunday in the week, either for everyone or new hires. If you don't agree to that you're unlikely to get anything out of them.

And it's right to bring Sundays inside anyway. Many other roles on the railway (control and various other manager roles critical to operations), often don't have a choice about Sundays. It's shift work and shifts don't suddenly end because its Sunday. It's an attitude that's several decades out of date and would balance everything better.

How many crew complain about finishing essentially Sunday morning off a Saturday late yet getting put onto a Monday early? It's a nasty practice but it's the sort of approach which would likely lessen with Sundays inside.
 

Fokx

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Nope, just get the job done.
That’s probably why you don’t understand the reasons for incentivised ticket scanning

Every job I’ve had had had some form of incentive for productivity. It benefits me, it benefits my employer and keeps the staff motivated. It also makes the staff more likely and more willing to do the task at a greater frequency. (In this scenario it would likely be more frequent ticket checks at every stop rather than just one along a route for example)
 

Horizon22

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Errr the one day a week I can be guaranteed to spend time with my family.
As I said, plenty of volunteers happy to work them, so no reason to compel everyone to work them.
Oh, and when I signed up and signed my contract of employment, it was very clear Sundays where voluntary. So changing the goal posts now isn't gonna happen, sorry.

That's not at all true. You'll have Rest Days on Saturdays which you'll know far in advance. Nor are you going to work every single Sunday suddenly, probably somewhere between 1 in 3-8 (this is going to be highly TOC/depot dependent) That's the nature of the beast of shift-work though. It has benefits and you have to take the rough with the smooth. People are sometimes happy to do them but it isn't consistent. Ever seen Sunday coverage on a bank holiday weekend or approaching a big event or set of holidays?

Goalposts change all the time, its how we adapt, change and improve the railway (for both passengers and staff). Now that is not to say changes should be forced and it is sometimes hard to balance the needs of both groups, but Sundays inside is certainly very high - if not #1 - for reforms the DfT want to see in the short/medium term. I personally think it's the right thing to do. It's near enough a 24/7 industry and should be staffed adequately to achieve it.
 
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nedchester

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Aha.

With all due respect, you should be careful what you wish for. If anyone is in a “railway bubble”, it’s your grade. Your job will be automated out of existence quicker than mine will be as a driver.



You just seem very quick to tell business end shift workers how they should be willing to work additional days. Maybe walk a mile in their shoes first?

We are some years away from train planning automation even though it’s been tried. In any case I’ll be retired before that comes about.

On and yes I have worked weekends when matters have got particularly tricky and it was at the going rate (the same as in the week).

I have friends who work shifts on the railway (not train crew) and they are agog at some of the demands current happening especially in the current climate.
 
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43066

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And it's right to bring Sundays inside anyway. Many other roles on the railway (control and various other manager roles critical to operations), often don't have a choice about Sundays. It's shift work and shifts don't suddenly end because its Sunday. It's an attitude that's several decades out of date and would balance everything better.

How many crew complain about finishing essentially Sunday morning off a Saturday late yet getting put onto a Monday early? It's a nasty practice but it's the sort of approach which would likely lessen with Sundays inside.

I don’t disagree with this at all. I do think people who signed Sundays outside contracts should be accommodated, though. My place gets it about right by having a legacy “Sundays outside link”.

Single rest days are the work of the devil and something I’d like to see eliminated. My last place had that better, but the work was shocking, swings and roundabouts!
 

Horizon22

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I don’t disagree with this at all. I do think people who signed Sundays outside contracts should be accommodated, though. My place gets it about right by having a legacy “Sundays outside link”.

Single rest days are the work of the devil and something I’d like to see eliminated. My last place had that better, but the work was shocking, swings and roundabouts!

Yes. It might be that this is an issue that slowly disappears over the next few years as a higher % of crew are transitioned/start on newer contracts as others retire, although that might be too slow for the DfT. It might be that a one-off "golden handshake" to transition the remaining few might be a hit worth taking too, although I'm sure some will stubbornly refuse it no matter what was offered (and I admire that to some extent).

Ah yes I am glad I have a roster and manager who realises the general uselessness of single RDs when transitioning back (i.e night to late or late to early). Roster management/design is seriously underestimated by some in management with regards to job satisfaction and how much buy-in you can get from crew
 

Fokx

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Single rest days are the work of the devil and something I’d like to see eliminated.

That’s and flip-flop links where you’re constantly changing from earlies to lates to earlies on a weekly/semi-weekly basis instead of a smooth transition throughout
 

43066

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We are some years away from train planning automation even though it’s been tried. In any case I’ll be retired before that come about.

On and yes I have worked weekends when matters have got particularly tricky and it was at the going rate (the same as in the week).

I have friends who work shifts on the railway (not train crew) and they are agog at some of the demands current happening especially in the current climate.

In other words, you’ve never worked traincrew shifts yourself, you have no concept. So please stop lecturing those of us who actually do the job!


I'm sure some will stubbornly refuse it no matter what was offered (and I admire that to some extent).

There are some proper characters in the grade. Several years in myself now, I still can’t decide whether I love it or hate it.

The 0300 alarm calls are a pain, but watching the sun rise from the cab, with no office politics, has its moments. As does blowing past Thameslinks…. 8-)
 

O L Leigh

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Meanwhile outside the railway bubble that is exactly what happens in the airline industry, healthcare, retail etc etc.

Outside the railway bubble is no different from inside. An employer sets out what the terms of employment will be and the candidate chooses to accept or decline them. Once accepted these form part of your contract of employment which cannot be varied except through negotiation and agreement by both parties. Usually this can be done amicably and with mutual respect but just sometimes it happens under "take it or leave it" terms, such as was recently the case with British Gas.

That certain sectors operate differently from the railway is not an indication that things are done differently but rather that different terms have been offered and agreed.
 

muz379

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What’s so special about Sundays? Maybe train crew feel the need to be in church or some such?!

This is 2022 not 1922. A business that operates 24/7 should not be relying on volunteers for one day of the week.
I love the "its 2022" argument , the same as the "we need 21st century working conditions " argument . Why has it taken us until 21 years into the 21st century for us to start thinking about these things .

The industry was the one that put the cart before the horse trying to run sunday services without guranteeing staff coverage and relying on overtime be that enforced or completely voluntary .

If someones contract gives them the right to not work Sundays , they dont have to justify that to you , me or anyone else if they want to exercise that right .
Meanwhile outside the railway bubble that is exactly what happens in the airline industry, healthcare, retail etc etc.

I am sure railway staff would be well miffed if they turn up on a Sunday morning to go on their holidays and find their Ryanair pilot hasn’t volunteered for work.

And while I’m at it why do conductors feel they need extra payments to check tickets using the scanners. Maybe I should have got extra money when I got a new laptop?!

I know it actually costs the employers more to have Sundays in the working week by the way.
Outside that same "railway bubble" bus drivers at the same parent company have just secured an 8.9% payrise and a £750 one off payment . Im sure rail staff will be wrong though when they want some of that outside the railway bubble influence wont they .

Ill criticise any business that promises a service but does so relying on voluntary labour which leads to that service not being delivered . The railway is no different .

The ticket scanning thing has already been done to death earlier in this thread , its worth a heck of a lot to the TOC's , the TOC in question here actually come up with the idea of the incentive payment .
Let’s shut the railways at weekends so staff can have valuable family time. Maybe the same should apply to shops, pubs, emergency services etc
Nobody is suggesting that the railway should shut on a sunday , least of all not the unions who actually have a lot to gain by bringing sundays in the working week . As I earlier said it is an ASLEF charter committment and the RMT is committed to fully staffed services with a clean fully pensionable salary not reliance on overtime . Besides a few people that have never and wont ever want to work them the majority of staff get this but also rightly want their terms and conditions to be negotiated not enforced.
The cash-strapped DfT are currently paying other operators on the same lines and routes as TPE for the scanning of tickets, the benefits to the company from a marketing and insight perspective are worth the 2p.
Quite , that other operator even reported that it had saved them £10million in digital fraud . Its clearly quite valiable to tocs .
That's not at all true. You'll have Rest Days on Saturdays which you'll know far in advance. Nor are you going to work every single Sunday suddenly, probably somewhere between 1 in 3-8 (this is going to be highly TOC/depot dependent)
To be fair the talk is of a seven day railway with sunday service on par with saturday . That does probably mean more like 2 in 3 hence why its such an effort and cost to bring them inside the week .
On and yes I have worked weekends when matters have got particularly tricky and it was at the going rate (the same as in the week).
more fool you for working what was presumably overtime for flat rate .
 
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