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Once/Twice A Day InterCity Services.

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TheBigD

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On a similar topic to the thread about the withdrawal of the GWR service to Brighton...

How do the economics add up for the once/twice a day InterCity services?

Eg, if you look at LNER, the Inverness and Aberdeen services require an extra 2 sets of 9 car Azumas. 24 sets required for the full Kings Cross- Scotland service as opposed to just 22 if nothing went North of Edinburgh. Potentially drops to 20 sets if the deferred ECML May 2022 timetable goes ahead and you have 30 minute turn rounds in London/Edinburgh.

For example, would it make more economic sense to redeploy the 2 to 4 sets to the main ECML replace the 91s/mk4s than acquiring extra sets to replace them?

Similarly, how do the economics add up for sending 1 set to Hull in the mornings and evenings now that Hull Trains operate a (nearly) 2 hourly service all day?

Similarly with the twice a day Avanti extensions to Shrewsbury, would the stock be better utilised on the main WCML services.

Edited to correct a typo.
 
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Southern Dvr

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It may have changed or be changing but the reason such services exist is partly BR legacy and partly ORCATS raid.
 

yorkie

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Similarly, how do the economics add up for sending 1 set to Hull in the mornings and evenings now that Hull Trains operate a (nearly) 2 hourly service all day?
I am pretty sure the Hull services use stock that would not otherwise be fully utilised.
Similarly with the twice a day Avanti extensions to Shrewsbury, would the stock be better utilised on the main ECML services.
That would be very problematic; for example you would have to train staff on Voyagers. Also the depot for these units is Central Rivers near Burton on Trent which isn't optimal for ECML services.
 

TheBigD

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I am pretty sure the Hull services use stock that would not otherwise be fully utilised.

That would be very problematic; for example you would have to train staff on Voyagers. Also the depot for these units is Central Rivers near Burton on Trent which isn't optimal for ECML services.
I meant WCML. Fat fingers from me!
 

43096

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I am pretty sure the Hull services use stock that would not otherwise be fully utilised.
Since Hull Trains started running, the daily GNER/NXEC/East Coast/VTEC/LNER/Uncle Tom Cobley service has effectively been a reverse ORCATS raid on Hull Trains, as Hull has increased the market significantly. GNER kept very quiet about that when Grand Central was being set up.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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On a similar topic to the thread about the withdrawal of the GWR service to Brighton...

How do the economics add up for the once/twice a day InterCity services?

Eg, if you look at LNER, the Inverness and Aberdeen services require an extra 2 sets of 9 car Azumas. 24 sets required for the full Kings Cross- Scotland service as opposed to just 22 if nothing went North of Edinburgh. Potentially drops to 20 sets if the deferred ECML May 2022 timetable goes ahead and you have 30 minute turn rounds in London/Edinburgh.

For example, would it make more economic sense to redeploy the 2 to 4 sets to the main ECML replace the 91s/mk4s than acquiring extra sets to replace them?

Similarly, how do the economics add up for sending 1 set to Hull in the mornings and evenings now that Hull Trains operate a (nearly) 2 hourly service all day?

Similarly with the twice a day Avanti extensions to Shrewsbury, would the stock be better utilised on the main WCML services.

Edited to correct a typo.


Shrewsbury service stock would make no difference to any other services it is just an extension of the Birmingham service and makes a lot of sense.
 

hexagon789

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On a similar topic to the thread about the withdrawal of the GWR service to Brighton...

How do the economics add up for the once/twice a day InterCity services?

Eg, if you look at LNER, the Inverness and Aberdeen services require an extra 2 sets of 9 car Azumas. 24 sets required for the full Kings Cross- Scotland service as opposed to just 22 if nothing went North of Edinburgh. Potentially drops to 20 sets if the deferred ECML May 2022 timetable goes ahead and you have 30 minute turn rounds in London/Edinburgh.

For example, would it make more economic sense to redeploy the 2 to 4 sets to the main ECML replace the 91s/mk4s than acquiring extra sets to replace them?

Similarly, how do the economics add up for sending 1 set to Hull in the mornings and evenings now that Hull Trains operate a (nearly) 2 hourly service all day?

Similarly with the twice a day Avanti extensions to Shrewsbury, would the stock be better utilised on the main WCML services.

Edited to correct a typo.
I can't speak as to the Hull services, but the LNER Aberdeen/Inverness services are generally well patronised for both internal and cross-border journeys. Sone of the workings provide useful higher capacity traditional peak hour runs to/from Edinburgh for time thing. Surely if they can obtain business then irrespective of the exact break down of journeys, they are worth keeping?
 

Peterthegreat

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In simple terms, how does that work? :?:
ORCATS was the ex BR computer program to allocate revenue between services. It uses the train service data base and estimates the amount of traffic from the fares/ticket data base which travels per minute. In simplistic terms if two operators operate hourly services 30 minutes apart each hour they would both get 50% of the revenue - if they run 45/15 minutes apart then one would receive 75% and the other 25%. Trains that are overtaken don't receive anything. It is slightly (!) more complicated as the demand curves used vary by time of day and by ticket type. Operator specific tickets just go to the operator.
A more complex example would be a Hull to Brighton ticket where revenue would not only go to Hull Trains, LNER, Thameslink but also Northern (Hull to Doncaster), Grand Central (Doncaster to Kings Cross) and Southern (London area to Brighton). It is also possible, depending on the exact timetable, some revenue may go to SWR, TPE or even XC, EMR and Avanti.
This was the situation ten years ago before I retired but the basics should remain the same as changing the parameters was deemed to be "dangerous" as no one could accurately predict what would happen!
Hope this helps.
 

Gloster

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Wasn’t there a rule that operators that provided a direct service between two stations would get a larger proportion than those where a change of trains or operator was involved? Or was this part of the system mentioned in the first paragraph?

It was said that Wales & West’s once a day services from Portsmouth and Brighton to more far-flung destinations than Bristol or Cardiff paid for themselves by the revenue allocated, rather than actual passenger numbers.
 

Peterthegreat

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Wasn’t there a rule that operators that provided a direct service between two stations would get a larger proportion than those where a change of trains or operator was involved? Or was this part of the system mentioned in the first paragraph?

It was said that Wales & West’s once a day services from Portsmouth and Brighton to more far-flung destinations than Bristol or Cardiff paid for themselves by the revenue allocated, rather than actual passenger numbers.
Certainly when I was involved direct services didn't get a larger proportion per se but may have done because they were quicker. They are also easier to be "operator" specific. The second paragraph is probably true. The ORCATS system allocates passengers (and therefore revenue) to the demand profiles and not to actual passengers carried. For example a Great Western service from Great Malvern to Brighton may be allocated, say, 2% of passengers between Worthing and Brighton and 10% between Yate and Cam and Dursley. The numbers between Worthing and Brighton being much bigger will therefore attract more revenue.
 

Ken H

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1978 timetable there were 2 Aberdeen - KX services, plus a Aberdeen - York, and the sleepers.
The extra services were added in 'marginal time' in BR days once they had east coast HST's. Trips north of made by trains that arrived in Edinburgh too late to make a return journey south. Also saved Scottish domestic train mileage.
 

43055

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On a similar topic to the thread about the withdrawal of the GWR service to Brighton...

How do the economics add up for the once/twice a day InterCity services?

Eg, if you look at LNER, the Inverness and Aberdeen services require an extra 2 sets of 9 car Azumas. 24 sets required for the full Kings Cross- Scotland service as opposed to just 22 if nothing went North of Edinburgh. Potentially drops to 20 sets if the deferred ECML May 2022 timetable goes ahead and you have 30 minute turn rounds in London/Edinburgh.

For example, would it make more economic sense to redeploy the 2 to 4 sets to the main ECML replace the 91s/mk4s than acquiring extra sets to replace them?

Similarly, how do the economics add up for sending 1 set to Hull in the mornings and evenings now that Hull Trains operate a (nearly) 2 hourly service all day?

Similarly with the twice a day Avanti extensions to Shrewsbury, would the stock be better utilised on the main WCML services.

Edited to correct a typo.
The LNER Aberdeen services replaces the ScotRail intercity service in the hours they run so by removing LNER services ScotRail would have to fill in the gaps to keep the hourly frequency.
 

TheBigD

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1978 timetable there were 2 Aberdeen - KX services, plus a Aberdeen - York, and the sleepers.
The extra services were added in 'marginal time' in BR days once they had east coast HST's. Trips north of made by trains that arrived in Edinburgh too late to make a return journey south. Also saved Scottish domestic train mileage.
Some do, some don't.

0752 ex Aberdeen is north of Edinburgh until 1025 so in marginal time.
0708 ex Leeds/1452 ex Aberdeen is north of Edinburgh 1025-1725 for example which is not marginal time.

In total the north of Scotland LNER services require 2 additional sets than if LNER only ran Kings Cross-Edinburgh.
 
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takno

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Some do, some don't.

0752 ex Aberdeen is north of Edinburgh until 1025 so in marginal time.
0708 ex Leeds/1452 ex Aberdeen is north of Edinburgh 1025-1725 for example which is not marginal time.

In total the north of Scotland LNER services require 2 additional sets than if LNER only ran Kings Cross-Edinburgh.
Irrespective of the timings, these trains provide a lot of valuable extra capacity. If LNER didn't run them then Scotrail would have to run extra services in their place anyway, so there's no net saving of stock to the railways.

There is also a significant amount of cross-Edinburgh traffic - I'd estimate 2-3 carriages full on most of the Aberdeens I've caught. The situation is really nothing like the GWR Brighton services.

If you wanted to really chisel out a justification for not having them it would have to be on the basis that all-electric units would have been cheaper to buy, but on that basis running through to Skipton and Harrogate represents a far worse waste of resources.
 

TheBigD

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If you wanted to really chisel out a justification for not having them it would have to be on the basis that all-electric units would have been cheaper to buy, but on that basis running through to Skipton and Harrogate represents a far worse waste of resources.

Agree with about Harrogate services. A 9/10 car train off the main route all day for what must be at best a few dozen through London punters.
The plans from a few years ago would have seen Harrogate served by a third, slower 2 hourly service (alternating with Lincoln) from London, presumably with 5 car sets.
 

irish_rail

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The ECML does seem to have a hell of a lot of extra trains going off grid, and arguably wasting capacity. Certainly when compared with GWR which has very few "add ons" overall, although I do recall the train that once ran Abergavenny to London via Hereford!
If LNER where to axe all of the additional stuff going onto places like Harrogate , Hull, Lincoln, Sunderland etc I wonder how many spare 80x sets could be made available for more useful means?
 

dk1

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The ECML does seem to have a hell of a lot of extra trains going off grid, and arguably wasting capacity. Certainly when compared with GWR which has very few "add ons" overall, although I do recall the train that once ran Abergavenny to London via Hereford!
If LNER where to axe all of the additional stuff going onto places like Harrogate , Hull, Lincoln, Sunderland etc I wonder how many spare 80x sets could be made available for more useful means?
Oh I don’t know. Hereford, Worcester, Newquay, Carmarthen, Paignton, Weston. It’s all good & great to see regardless how wasteful they seem. Many are in marginal time at many TOCs.
 

waverley47

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Most of these types of journeys fill a number of different uses, and they're usually a net benefit for both the operator and the network in general. I'm most familiar with LNER, however GWR and Avanti extensions operate under similar reasons.

From a passenger perspective, services like this offer more convenient journeys than changing. It's nice to sit in one seat for the duration of your journey from say London to Stirling. Offering direct journeys does attract marginally more passengers than changing does, although that number is very, very small.

Furthermore, while the number of end to end journeys on most of these services is very small, cross terminal journeys (such as Newcastle to Dundee on LNER, or Coventry to Shrewsbury on Avanti) add up quite quickly. Aberdeenshire and Fife have strong links to Yorkshire and the North East for example. Sit on the LNER Stirling service and you'll see a lot of people staying on past Edinburgh, despite the relatively small population of towns along the route, relatively short journey length, and regular 2tph if you change at Waverley.

From a TOC perspective, you have to consider where units are stabled overnight. LNER stable at Craigentinny, Aberdeen Craiginches, and a few others. Craigentinny isn't big enough to stable a full compliment of 80x; you'd need to stable enough units to send a fresh one South every thirty minutes until the first one from London has arrived, been cleaned and turned around. From my calculations that's about 16 units which would have to stable at Craigentinny overnight, or about 3.7km of coaches. Some of these are accounted for by stabling units at Heaton and sending them north from Newcastle, but still, you'd be struggling to stable that many.

At the same time, all the units that arrive in Edinburgh after the last train south in the evening has departed would be stuck in Craigentinny. The last train south departs at 19:30, so all eight arrivals after that should be expected to stable at Craigentinny. For a unit that arrives in Edinburgh at midnight, that's no great loss of utility. However a unit arriving at 19:00 would be a bit of a waste if it trundled off to the depot, you be loosing in effect 4 hours of utility.

So to solve both issues, you send units off in the evening to stable at Polmadie and Aberdeen, simply to get them out of the way. One less unit stabling overnight in Edinburgh, and you gain, in marginal time, extra hours of utility. A unit doesn't spend four hours waiting in the depot, it spends three hours heading up the coast to Aberdeen, earning revenue from Orcats and ticket sales. Then, it earns three more hours of revenue in the morning as it returns south to Edinburgh, picking up it's slot south to London after all the units in the depot have departed.



In all, LNER extensions in the middle of the day cost the operator about 6 units.

2 are north of Edinburgh during the day, in hours when they could be used in the main ECML. The morning Leeds to Aberdeen service and evening return looses a train, as it means one train is north of Edinburgh at all times. The Inverness service requires an extra unit, but it doesn't loose a unit; that unit is diagrammed south of Edinburgh during the day being used, but means you need an extra unit because it can't reach Edinburgh before the first services have arrived from London. Plus, you stable a unit in the north, and provide a very well used service from the ECML to the Highlands.

The other "lost" units aren't really lost. They're providing a service. One unit is diagrammed between Leeds and Harrogate for 90 minutes every two hours, so you loose 3/4 of the utility of one diagram. Bradford and Lincoln services are similar.

This is the main problem. You don't lose the units. You provide a service. Many of these services are important. Yes, they might have required an extra couple of units to be purchased, but they're all used all day. Saying they're wasted implies that the main trunk ECML can handle the extra services they would otherwise be used for.


Its a hard one. These services are popular and important, especially beginning/end of service extensions in marginal time. But, if by removing them you can improve woeful service provision on the trunk, as is the case with XC, then perhaps they should be culled.
 

tbtc

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It's an interesting one

I like simple clock face timetables (and I get annoyed at the "this will put out town on the map"/ civic pride arguments) but there are certainly some flows which warrant some kind of daily "extension"

Certainly, if a service can be run in "marginal time" then the economics look a lot better. As has been alluded to above, the Inverness - Kings Cross service came about because it was identified that one HST wasn't leaving Craigentinny until almost lunchtime (given that the cross border flows were a lot more "southbound in the morning, northbound in the afternoon" back then), and one HST wasn't used after arriving at Waverley at tea time - so you could run it from Inverness at eight in the morning so that it arrived in Edinburgh in time to take up the southbound path that would otherwise had been fed by an ECS move from Craigentinny - and then use an HST to provide a six o'clock service from Edinburgh to Inverness using a train that would have otherwise have headed back to Craigentinny instead.

This was all in the pre-Sectorisation days of British Rail, maybe such a use of stock would have been less likely once it became a case of "InterCity" encroaching onto "ScoRail" territory, who knows

This is based on the 1980s timetable, maybe nowadays it'd be useful to some if there were additional resources providing northbound ECML capacity in the morning - given that the fact that London to Edinburgh trains are generally based in Bounds Green/ Heaton/ Craigentinny, there's some long waits in the morning for northbound services, hence Northern having to use their Sprinters to provide a morning arrival into Newcastle from Darlington/ Durham - would it be better if LNER based an additional train at Neville Hill so that it provided additional capacity into Newcastle and allowed Northern to focus resources on the Durham Coast instead? Robbing Peter To Pay Paul, sure, but at the moment Northern are having to use their scarce resources to plug a gap in the LNER timetable because LNER are using their resources to save ScotRail from having to resource the Highland Main Line as much as they would have. At the moment there would be a gap of over half an hour in the northbound services from Durham to Newcastle (08:22 - 08:55) if it wasn't for Northern diverting a Middlesbrough service away from the Durham Coast line.

Anyhow, compare and contrast. The LNER service to Inverness uses units that would otherwise have been "spare" (albeit, I understand that they have a slightly complicated system where staff are put up in digs - I think that they the crews sit on the cushions of ScotRail services between Aberdeen and Inverness, since the evening arrival into the Highlands is too late for the staff to then be able to work the 07:55 southbound departure the following day?). The one XC service a day from Aberdeen to England needed the following:

05:17: Leaves Craigentinny (ECS)
06:32 Arrives (ECS) into Dundee
06:42 Starts in service from Dundee
07:55 Arrives into Aberdeen
08:20 Departs Aberdeen
10:54 Arrives into Edinburgh
11:06 Departs Edinburgh (to Plymouth)

.

18:08 Evening service arrives into Edinburgh (ex Plymouth)
18:13 Departs Edinburgh for Aberdeen
20:44 Arrives into Aberdeen
21:35 Departs Aberdeen
00:13 Arrives into Edinburgh
00:21 Departs Edinburgh (ECS)
00:29 Arrives into Craigentinny

...so that's running a Voyager for twelve hours a day just to serve Aberdeen - you can certainly reply that it wouldn't have been used for much else in those times, so it's "free" to use.

But there are costs to these kind of services. As well as the diesel etc, there are problems ensuring sufficient staff trained on the infrequent extensions. How many drivers/guards do you need to maintain route knowledge etc, given that staff may be sick, for the sake of one service a day? Do the XC staff only do a return from Edinburgh to Aberdeen and that's a day's work? i.e. two sets of staff required to run the two trips each day? But then is that cheaper than having a base in Aberdeen, where you'd have to give them accommodation and maybe pay ScotRail's staff at Ferryhill to provide some light maintenance on the unit that would stable there overnight?

Running one LNER train a day to Inverness or one XC train a day to Aberdeen (which, let's face it, it effectively is, there aren't many passengers using the contra-flow journeys) can cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. And, whilst some will be tempted to blame privatisation, it'd be expensive to provide under any circumstances (since it'd be expensive/ complicated to have Ferryhill/ Inverness staff crewing it, given that it's not their standard traction, even if they do have the route knowledge)

Some other "one a day" services look quite simple/cheap to provide - e.g. if there's a Paddington diagram that starts/finishes at Temple Meads then it's not a huge cost to extend it to/from Weston Super Mare. Others though, they involve additional trains (e.g. one LNER unit north of Leeds at all times to provide a Harrogate train). If you can use the train to provide additional capacity into a large "provincial" city without much cost then great - e.g. LNER from Skipton providing extra capacity into Leeds in the morning peak - BR running an 87 from Ayr into Glasgow before it was needed for WCML duties - but when it starts requiring additional staff or additional trains then it becomes another story.

However there's always going to be a lot of love for quirky one-a-day services amongst the enthusiast community, and a disproportionate amount of anger about anything being cut even if it wasn't used by that many people

The LNER Aberdeen services replaces the ScotRail intercity service in the hours they run so by removing LNER services ScotRail would have to fill in the gaps to keep the hourly frequency.

That is a compelling argument, but I guess that two counterpoints would be:

1. What other services do ScotRail use with their HSTs, given that LNER and XC are providing services north of Edinburgh? (e.g. if LNER provide the teatime service from Edinburgh to the Highlands then does a ScotRail HST do a different job, or does it head to the depot prematurely?). When ScotRail operated fiftysomething 170s, you could have argued that a 158/170 "saved" from the Highland Main Line was providing additional capacity on something like the Fife Circle instead - but now ScotRail have "specialist" trains for their longer distance routes then they can't be used for other services quite so easily
2. When ScotRail were taking on fifty plus HST power cars, wast here any suggestion of them taking over these paths north of Edinburgh?

The ECML does seem to have a hell of a lot of extra trains going off grid, and arguably wasting capacity. Certainly when compared with GWR which has very few "add ons" overall, although I do recall the train that once ran Abergavenny to London via Hereford!

I could be wrong here, it's going back a few years, but was this when the service was running ECS from Phillips Marsh, so was running ECS through Abergavenny anyway? In which case I'm all for that kind of marginal use of stock (but it'd be quite an additional cost if it was having to a Hereford - Abergavenny - Hereford round trip twice a day)

Its a hard one. These services are popular and important, especially beginning/end of service extensions in marginal time. But, if by removing them you can improve woeful service provision on the trunk, as is the case with XC, then perhaps they should be culled.

Agreed - hard to provide a "hard and fast rule" but some are certainly a lot harder to justify than others!
 

geordieblue

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If you wanted to really chisel out a justification for not having them it would have to be on the basis that all-electric units would have been cheaper to buy, but on that basis running through to Skipton and Harrogate represents a far worse waste of resources.
Whilst I agree that running to Skipton isn't the best use of resources, that line is electrified :)
 

TheBigD

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The one XC service a day from Aberdeen to England needed the following:

05:17: Leaves Craigentinny (ECS)
06:32 Arrives (ECS) into Dundee
06:42 Starts in service from Dundee
07:55 Arrives into Aberdeen
08:20 Departs Aberdeen
10:54 Arrives into Edinburgh
11:06 Departs Edinburgh (to Plymouth)

.

18:08 Evening service arrives into Edinburgh (ex Plymouth)
18:13 Departs Edinburgh for Aberdeen
20:44 Arrives into Aberdeen
21:35 Departs Aberdeen
00:13 Arrives into Edinburgh
00:21 Departs Edinburgh (ECS)
00:29 Arrives into Craigentinny

...so that's running a Voyager for twelve hours a day just to serve Aberdeen - you can certainly reply that it wouldn't have been used for much else in those times, so it's "free" to use.
When XC were consulting for the proposed 2018 timetable changes (they never went ahead), XC tried to reduce the cost of the Aberdeen. It proposed changing it to..

0603 Birmingham to Edinburgh extended to Aberdeen arriving around 1350. Service would have been a double Voyager between Birmingham and Edinburgh.

1808 Edinburgh to Birmingham starting back in Aberdeen at 1520, and again a double Voyager between Edinburgh and Birmingham. As there was no 1800 Edinburgh to Kings Cross this was a very busy service from Edinburgh.

Both services would have followed 30 minutes behind an ECML HST/Azuma service (0708 ex Leeds/1452 ex Aberdeen).

The same consultation would have seen Paignton XC services largely abandoned in favour of making Birmingham to Exeter half hourly. Paignton would have beeneft with just a 0705 northbound and a late evening arrival.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Whilst I agree that running to Skipton isn't the best use of resources, that line is electrified :)

Skipton is served in marginal time 0655 ex Skipton, 1803 ex Kings Cross.
Harrogate used to be similar, 0735 ex Harrogate, and 1733 ex Kings Cross. It's only recently that Harrogate saw a 2 hourly London service all day.
 

RailWonderer

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I like simple clock face timetables (and I get annoyed at the "this will put out town on the map"/ civic pride arguments) but there are certainly some flows which warrant some kind of daily "extension"

Clockface timetables are nice when you have the infrastructure to run them but they are not always a good use of resources. It also means having to run everything semi fast and stopping at alternating stations, reducing journey times for the bulk of traffic which only needs London - Peterborough/York/Edinburgh or Leeds - Peterborough/London.
Some other "one a day" services look quite simple/cheap to provide - e.g. if there's a Paddington diagram that starts/finishes at Temple Meads then it's not a huge cost to extend it to/from Weston Super Mare. Others though, they involve additional trains (e.g. one LNER unit north of Leeds at all times to provide a Harrogate train). If you can use the train to provide additional capacity into a large "provincial" city without much cost then great - e.g. LNER from Skipton providing extra capacity into Leeds in the morning peak - BR running an 87 from Ayr into Glasgow before it was needed for WCML duties - but when it starts requiring additional staff or additional trains then it becomes another story.

You assume that LNER badly need those extra units, which they don't and even if they wanted to use them to increase frequency, bottlenecks and platforming constraints exist. The extra cost is justified long as there is a small but solid market for those extensions, they run twice a day most of them so the money is well used to provide convenience. The market who uses them would almost certainly fly instead if they had to change at Edinburgh.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Oh I don’t know. Hereford, Worcester, Newquay, Carmarthen, Paignton, Weston. It’s all good & great to see regardless how wasteful they seem. Many are in marginal time at many TOCs.
I wouldn't call Worcester–Paddington a "once/twice a day service" - it's pretty much hourly between 5am and 9pm, with extras in the peaks!
 

mike57

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Hull trains start a couple of their early services from Beverley, and finish a couple of their evening services there. I imagine its marginal time, we have used the 06:04 out of Beverley a couple of times when we have been travelling to London for the day and returned to Beverley on the early evening service. Its not heavily used from Beverley but Hull trains, as an open access operator, obviously think its worthwhile. From our point of view its a lot easier to get to Beverley, and cheaper to park than Hull, we are too early to catch a train from home. From Hull trains point of view they probably win, as if we had to drive into Hull then York becomes the better option, a bit further to drive, but a quicker journey to London.
 

miklcct

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Clockface timetables are nice when you have the infrastructure to run them but they are not always a good use of resources. It also means having to run everything semi fast and stopping at alternating stations, reducing journey times for the bulk of traffic which only needs London - Peterborough/York/Edinburgh or Leeds - Peterborough/London.
The way to squeeze as much capacity into a track is to run everything with a single stopping pattern, i.e. to stop every train at every station.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The way to squeeze as much capacity into a track is to run everything with a single stopping pattern, i.e. to stop every train at every station.
Is it? Would have thought that skip-stopping or no longer calling at smaller intermediate stations would optimise track capacity; not so good though if anyone ever does need to use those smaller stations (thinking of the likes of Wedgwood and Barlaston here).
 
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