London Buses Discussion

[SLC001]

Typeface replication was an important issue but so was cost - traditional blinds being half the cost. Not sure that this is the case now. Also a survey found that passengers preferred the old type of blind.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There was a time some years back (can't now remember when exactly) when yellow destination blinds were used specifically on London's night bus routes. It was always cheery to see the yellow blinds appearing amongst the dwindling white ones if out last thing at night.

As were Green Line blinds and some special routeings, such as anticlockwise to a normal clockwise routeing.

Such as this:

LT L46

Bexleyheath Garage

www.flickr.com

And for a brief period even green blinds were used:

LT BL94

Ruislip Station

www.flickr.com

I don't mean black on yellow destinations rather than white on black - I mean the whole blind on the front of a night bus showing the number, destination, etc, in yellow against the black rather than white against the black.

Typeface replication was an important issue but so was cost - traditional blinds being half the cost. Not sure that this is the case now. Also a survey found that passengers preferred the old type of blind.

Yes - newer technology is often thought of as automatically more cost-efficient; but it frequently isn't. The old blinds were in a sense primitive, but they were quite functional and they weren't expensive. Even if cost hadn't been an issue, there was good reason to keep the aethetics of the blinds until an electronic verion could reliably imitate the style. (Even so, they're not perfect now...)

 

[ChilternTurbo]

I would imagine that the current generation of printed destination blinds or Smartblinds manufactured by McKenna are very expensive though as they are power operated rather than being wound by a handle. When London buses are cascaded out of London, the destination blinds seem to get removed immediately by the new operator and replaced by LED units.

I'll miss the traditional blinds as I think they're a model of clarity (plus I collect them!) but I can certainly see that LED items provide a lot more operational flexibility. I was very impressed by the ones fitted to the new Enviro City EVs on the 63 which actually fooled me into thinking they were blinds until I got very close.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I don't mean black on yellow destinations rather than white on black - I mean the whole blind on the front of a night bus showing the number, destination, etc, in yellow against the black rather than white against the black.



Yes - newer technology is often thought of as automatically more cost-efficient; but it frequently isn't. The old blinds were in a sense primitive, but they were quite functional and they weren't expensive. Even if cost hadn't been an issue, there was good reason to keep the aethetics of the blinds until an electronic verion could reliably imitate the style. (Even so, they're not perfect now...)

Yes and no. The problem with old style blinds is that every time new routes are added, or extended/diverted, it is necessary to produce and fit new blinds. Or produce inserts, which are cheaper, but the Labour cost and faff of inserting them is horrendous (I’m not even sure if inserts are possible with Smartblinds - someone will know!). While the capital cost of LED displays is more, they are infinitely flexible and should last the life of the bus.

 

[galwhv69]

Yes and no. The problem with old style blinds is that every time new routes are added, or extended/diverted, it is necessary to produce and fit new blinds. Or produce inserts, which are cheaper, but the Labour cost and faff of inserting them is horrendous (I’m not even sure if inserts are possible with Smartblinds - someone will know!). While the capital cost of LED displays is more, they are infinitely flexible and should last the life of the bus.

Inserts are possible for smartblinds but they need to be stuck very carefully so the sensor can read the barcode

 

[ChilternTurbo]

An interesting video on how modern Smartblinds are made. It all looks very labour intensive although the enthusiast in me really likes proper destination blinds...

 

[Busaholic]

Yes and no. The problem with old style blinds is that every time new routes are added, or extended/diverted, it is necessary to produce and fit new blinds. Or produce inserts, which are cheaper, but the Labour cost and faff of inserting them is horrendous (I’m not even sure if inserts are possible with Smartblinds - someone will know!). While the capital cost of LED displays is more, they are infinitely flexible and should last the life of the bus.

It's amazing how they almost always managed to get the new blinds on buses in time for all the massive route alterations of the latter part of the last century in London, with all the weekend variations and suffixes and split garage allocations on routes. Changes occurred far more often then: in some places like N.E. London you might have two or three major route alteration schemes in four or five years. Nowadays, with 'consultations', i-bus announcements, tendering etc the changes are far less, with almost all routes operating seven days a week between the same termini, and operated from the same single garage.

 

[Deerfold]

It's amazing how they almost always managed to get the new blinds on buses in time for all the massive route alterations of the latter part of the last century in London, with all the weekend variations and suffixes and split garage allocations on routes. Changes occurred far more often then: in some places like N.E. London you might have two or three major route alteration schemes in four or five years. Nowadays, with 'consultations', i-bus announcements, tendering etc the changes are far less, with almost all routes operating seven days a week between the same termini, and operated from the same single garage.

On the countdown system which predated IBus, drivers put a two digit destination code into the ticket machine enabling the ticket machine to pass on the intended destination.

These codes were agreed between operators and London Buses. Usually they covered one garage as there were only fewer than 100 available codes (a couple were special codes such as 99 to indicate the bus was not in service).

One operator decided to change all its codes, delivering them to London Buses on the day they started using them.
They didn't want separate codes for each garage so had 180 codes.

They'd produced new schedules for the drivers and destroyed the old ones.

Drivers couldn't enter 80 of the codes at all and Countdown signs didn't work for their routes for a week until they returned to the previously agreed codes.

 

[Busaholic]

On the countdown system which predated IBus, drivers put a two digit destination code into the ticket machine enabling the ticket machine to pass on the intended destination.

These codes were agreed between operators and London Buses. Usually they covered one garage as there were only fewer than 100 available codes (a couple were special codes such as 99 to indicate the bus was not in service).

One operator decided to change all its codes, delivering them to London Buses on the day they started using them.
They didn't want separate codes for each garage so had 180 codes.

They'd produced new schedules for the drivers and destroyed the old ones.

Drivers couldn't enter 80 of the codes at all and Countdown signs didn't work for their routes for a week until they returned to the previously agreed codes.

Do give us a clue as to the operator!

 

[Deerfold]

Do give us a clue as to the operator!

I think it's probably too recent history for that.

I had a run of bad luck - I was the Countdown contact for 3 operators for a couple of years - the other 2 went bust.

 

[Mikey C]

Interesting that TfL publicised the the new buses on the 63, with a BBC piece - E400EVs but with an upgraded spec inside such a roof window, chargers and phone holders. Indeed the airiness is in contrast with the Borismasters and the Gemini 3/Streetdeck with their smaller windows...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60348230

If this a new TfL spec for all new vehicles?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Interesting that TfL publicised the the new buses on the 63, with a BBC piece - E400EVs but with an upgraded spec inside such a roof window, chargers and phone holders. Indeed the airiness is in contrast with the Borismasters and the Gemini 3/Streetdeck with their smaller windows...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60348230

If this a new TfL spec for all new vehicles?

New snazzier buses is all very well, but my priority is reinstating lost routes, lost stretches of routes and lost frequency. That would make my life far more comfortable than adding a few USB ports and so on! This is all image over substance - typical of what's happened to London buses in recent years. If they want to do something "techy", I'd argue for the reinstatement of missing "Countdown" displays at bus stops, many of which have disappeared in recent times - and indeed their expansion to all stops, as other cities find perfectly possible.

 

[Busaholic]

New snazzier buses is all very well, but my priority is reinstating lost routes, lost stretches of routes and lost frequency. That would make my life far more comfortable than adding a few USB ports and so on! This is all image over substance - typical of what's happened to London buses in recent years. If they want to do something "techy", I'd argue for the reinstatement of missing "Countdown" displays at bus stops, many of which have disappeared in recent times - and indeed their expansion to all stops, as other cities find perfectly possible.

Absolutely agree with you on that.

 

[Edsmith]

New snazzier buses is all very well, but my priority is reinstating lost routes, lost stretches of routes and lost frequency. That would make my life far more comfortable than adding a few USB ports and so on! This is all image over substance - typical of what's happened to London buses in recent years. If they want to do something "techy", I'd argue for the reinstatement of missing "Countdown" displays at bus stops, many of which have disappeared in recent times - and indeed their expansion to all stops, as other cities find perfectly possible.

These are the sort of standards that have been commonplace outside of London for years, seems TfL have finally caught up. As for countdown displays at stops, don't most people use their mobile phones now to see how long until the next bus?

 

[dan5324]

Not exactly a good look. Mayor goes cap in hand to the taxpayer. Again! Yet they seem to have more than enough for these snazzy new buses, with unnecessary creature comforts. The phone holders will be magnet for theft. Big time! The USB ports once damaged won’t be replaced. And how earth will the skylight be cleaned?bus washes don’t often reach too well on the roof.

 

[Edsmith]

Not exactly a good look. Mayor goes cap in hand to the taxpayer. Again! Yet they seem to have more than enough for these snazzy new buses, with unnecessary creature comforts. The phone holders will be magnet for theft. Big time! The USB ports once damaged won’t be replaced. And how earth will the skylight be cleaned?bus washes don’t often reach too well on the roof.

Unnecessary creature comforts? It's what other parts of the country have had for years, and no the phone holders won't be a magnet for theft big time!

 

[cnjb8]

New snazzier buses is all very well, but my priority is reinstating lost routes, lost stretches of routes and lost frequency. That would make my life far more comfortable than adding a few USB ports and so on! This is all image over substance - typical of what's happened to London buses in recent years. If they want to do something "techy", I'd argue for the reinstatement of missing "Countdown" displays at bus stops, many of which have disappeared in recent times - and indeed their expansion to all stops, as other cities find perfectly possible.

I definitely agree but I think TfL are doing this to attract passengers for more revenue.

 

[dan5324]

Unnecessary creature comforts? It's what other parts of the country have had for years, and no the phone holders won't be a magnet for theft big time!

Haha won’t be magnet for theft? Can tell you are not from london.

 

[Busaholic]

These are the sort of standards that have been commonplace outside of London for years, seems TfL have finally caught up. As for countdown displays at stops, don't most people use their mobile phones now to see how long until the next bus?

I suspect the answer to your question is 'no', given the profile of a good proportion of regular bus users. Even those with the right type of mobile phone might well be averse to standing near the edge of the pavement with it in their hand in many parts of London outside the very central area.

 

[duncombec]

New snazzier buses is all very well, but my priority is reinstating lost routes, lost stretches of routes and lost frequency. That would make my life far more comfortable than adding a few USB ports and so on! This is all image over substance - typical of what's happened to London buses in recent years. If they want to do something "techy", I'd argue for the reinstatement of missing "Countdown" displays at bus stops, many of which have disappeared in recent times - and indeed their expansion to all stops, as other cities find perfectly possible.

I may be completely wrong (it does happen when I do things from memory!), but was the issue with Countdown not that the system was extremely old and needed wholesale replacement, so actually "putting back" orange LED boxes would be the equivalent of you reverting from flat screen to CRT for your TV or computer monitor?

 

[Brooke]

I suspect the answer to your question is 'no', given the profile of a good proportion of regular bus users. Even those with the right type of mobile phone might well be averse to standing near the edge of the pavement with it in their hand in many parts of London outside the very central area.

I’m lucky enough to still have a countdown timer at my bus stop and It seems to be very accurate.

On the other hand, mobile phone (TFL, Google Maps, etc.) doesn’t reflect reality. So that plus the likelihood that I will have my phone nicked, means I never use my phone at the stop!

 

[Mikey C]

I'm happy to use my phone App when waiting at stops, I've never not done it because I was worried about the phone being stolen

 

[Brooke]

I'm happy to use my phone App when waiting at stops, I've never not done it because I was worried about the phone being stolen

Slightly off topic, but I was cycling along Hackney Road last week.

Just ahead of me, two lads on a moped were nicking one mobile phone per bus stop; they went the whole way from Cambridge Heath station to Cremer Street.

Depending where you are in London, it’s pretty much constant.

 

[Deerfold]

I may be completely wrong (it does happen when I do things from memory!), but was the issue with Countdown not that the system was extremely old and needed wholesale replacement, so actually "putting back" orange LED boxes would be the equivalent of you reverting from flat screen to CRT for your TV or computer monitor?

The current Countdown II system was introduced in 2011 and replaced the 1800 Countdown screens with around 2600 new ones.

It seems recently that when these are removed they are rarely replaced.

 

[Mikey C]

Slightly off topic, but I was cycling along Hackney Road last week.

Just ahead of me, two lads on a moped were nicking one mobile phone per bus stop; they went the whole way from Cambridge Heath station to Cremer Street.

Depending where you are in London, it’s pretty much constant.

If you stand slightly back from the kerb, then it's impossible for a moped rider to steal from you

And that sort of crime isn't representative of ALL of London

 

[Brooke]

And that sort of crime isn't representative of ALL of London

No, fortunately not!

It even seems to be very localised - e.g. it happens constantly around that Cambridge Heath area, yet I never heard of it over Globe Town / Roman Road way.

So you can be lucky / unlucky, depending where you travel.

 

[Edsmith]

If you stand slightly back from the kerb, then it's impossible for a moped rider to steal from you

And that sort of crime isn't representative of ALL of London

Exactly, look at any bus stop and not just in London and the chances are that most people are using their phone.

 

[duncombec]

The current Countdown II system was introduced in 2010 and replaced the 1800 Countdown screens with around 2600 new ones.

It seems recently that when these are removed they are rarely replaced.

Thanks - but even so, 2010 is 'getting on a bit' in technological terms.... Windows 7 was only released in late 2009!

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks - but even so, 2010 is 'getting on a bit' in technological terms.... Windows 7 was only released in late 2009!

Not "extremely old", though. The original Countdown system started in the mid-90s, but rollout was very slow.

(Have corrected to 2011 in my earlier post, too).

 

[Mikey C]

I've always thought that the choice of stop where Countdown was installed was a bit random. In my area, only one stop has Countdown, when it would be much more useful for other stops in the area, which have more routes passing through them