Southern Further Timetable changes from 19th Feb

[Nicholas Lewis]

Southern are introducing many services back to Dec 21 levels from 19th Feb although main line will be significantly altered due to Copyhold Jc renewal

The following services will be reintroduced:

• All-station services between East Croydon and London Bridge via Forest Hill
• Services between Sutton and London Victoria via Carshalton Beeches
• Services between Epsom and London Bridge via Carshalton Beeches
• Services between Horsham and Dorking will operate for extended hours.
• Services between Reigate and London Victoria
• Services between Tattenham Corner / Caterham and London Bridge (running fast between East Croydon and London Bridge).
• Services between Uckfield and London Bridge.

and there will be more services restored to Victoria from 28th Feb including to Holmwood

Further changes will take place across our network on Monday 21 February and and once more on Monday 28 February including more direct routes to London Victoria. Details of the changes for the week of Monday 21 February are available below and we will update you on changes from the week of Monday 28 February shortly.

All from Southern Timetable Update

 

[Lewlew]

Still no service up to Milton Keynes

 

[Bishopstone]

Of course, for Coastway services, reversion to the December timetable means significantly less trains than are currently running, such as the Lewes-Brighton corridor going down from 6tph to 3tph, and the Brighton-West Worthing 313s being pulled again, extending the already interminable journey times on the Portsmouth services as they pick-up the extra stops through the Brighton conurbation.

I wonder whether the rolling stock resource situation requires any 313s to be used, M-F, in this timetable? If not, Southern could compensate a little for the thin timetable by giving us the relative comfort of 377s, which also have more seats for the school, college and football trains etc.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Presuming that means the East Grinsteads going back down to hourly? Basically a reversion to the pre-Christmas timetable with the engineering works added

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There have been some interim changes today on Southern, although this might simply be down to engineering work rather than being a half way point to the 19th February changes.

Rather annoyingly, the most obvious change is that the Epsom to Victoria service at xx.01 and xx.31 is now xx.09 and xx.39. This changes it from an easy same platform connection at Sutton onto Thameslink to a missed connection - previously, it was at Sutton just ahead of the Thameslink; now it's three minutes after the Thameslink, making it much more awkward and less attractive for those travelling to any station from Streatham onwards.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

There have been some interim changes today on Southern, although this might simply be down to engineering work rather than being a half way point to the 19th February changes.

Rather annoyingly, the most obvious change is that the Epsom to Victoria service at xx.01 and xx.31 is now xx.09 and xx.39. This changes it from an easy same platform connection at Sutton onto Thameslink to a missed connection - previously, it was at Sutton just ahead of the Thameslink; now it's three minutes after the Thameslink, making it much more awkward and less attractive for those travelling to any station from Streatham onwards.

Today's changes are just for engineering work.

There is a three line block between Redhill and Gatwick Airport and the Fast Lines are completely shuts between Stoats Nest Junction and Tinsley Green Junction.

Southern are running 2tph from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport via Epsom, which is why the Epsom to Victoria services have been retimed to allow those trains to work in the timetable.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Today's changes are just for engineering work.

That's good to hear, thank you.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Presuming that means the East Grinsteads going back down to hourly? Basically a reversion to the pre-Christmas timetable with the engineering works added

Its not quite the pre christmas timetable, there are some changes.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Today's changes are just for engineering work.

There is a three line block between Redhill and Gatwick Airport and the Fast Lines are completely shuts between Stoats Nest Junction and Tinsley Green Junction.

Southern are running 2tph from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport via Epsom, which is why the Epsom to Victoria services have been retimed to allow those trains to work in the timetable.

and Thameslink are running only half hourly from Blackfriars to E.Croy usually 8TPH. Only the 9R are running though to RDH, the 9S, 9J are diverted to KX. The 9T are terminating at Blackfriars then go on a 45m round trip to H.Hill and back - why not terminate them at ECR?

There is also a Redhill to Brighton Tlk service which at least connects with the Tlk service albeit Redhill not the best station to change at but never fear they are also running a double decker every 5mins to Gatwick if you miss it which seems pretty pointless given the capacity of a 12 car 700.

Not exactly making journey opportunities easy on what is now busiest day of the week.

Anyhow i'll give credit where its due in that putting in SLW south of Redhill is good to see rather than just going for easy option and blocking the lot.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

and Thameslink are running only half hourly from Blackfriars to E.Croy usually 8TPH. Only the 9R are running though to RDH, the 9S, 9J are diverted to KX. The 9T are terminating at Blackfriars then go on a 45m round trip to H.Hill and back - why not terminate them at ECR?

There is also a Redhill to Brighton Tlk service which at least connects with the Tlk service albeit Redhill not the best station to change at but never fear they are also running a double decker every 5mins to Gatwick if you miss it which seems pretty pointless given the capacity of a 12 car 700.

Not exactly making journey opportunities easy on what is now busiest day of the week.

Anyhow i'll give credit where its due in that putting in SLW south of Redhill is good to see rather than just going for easy option and blocking the lot.

They are running Redhill - Brighton services as self contained for performance reasons. The last there was all weekend SLW going on between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges they ran through trains from Bedford - Brighton through the SLW and the performance was rubbish, although there were other reasons for that, so its been decided to keep it self contained for better performance this time.

Not sure why they aren't terminating the 9Txx at East Croydon though, would make sense like you say.

 

[Bishopstone]

Some significant reductions from February 28th, with Uckfield going back down to 2-hourly off-peak; no through services between Brighton and Portsmouth/Southampton, as I read it (change at Barnham or Chichester to connect onto ex-Victoria services); and Brighton-Hastings back down to 1tph. And that’s just from a quick first glance!

 

[hvordan]

Has the London Bridge - Beckenham Jct service gone back to normal frequency yet?

 

[BrianB]

Some significant reductions from February 28th, with Uckfield going back down to 2-hourly off-peak; no through services between Brighton and Portsmouth/Southampton, as I read it (change at Barnham or Chichester to connect onto ex-Victoria services); and Brighton-Hastings back down to 1tph. And that’s just from a quick first glance!

The full suite of timetables is planned to be uploaded to the SN website this weekend

 

[Galvanize]

Has the London Bridge - Beckenham Jct service gone back to normal frequency yet?

Nope. 90 minutely during the day with Additionals to cater for School Traffic in the Dulwich area.

 

[Howardh]

Do Southern run srevices London Victoria - Brighton and/or the Gatwick Express? Hoping to do a late-night Brighton - Victoria direct service early March midweek (leavig around 11pm-ish) but nothing appears on NRE; I'm confused!?

 

[Graham H]

Sorry to appear dim but why the reductions as we are getting out of the Covid issues arent we. My local station remained on its 4tph each way pretty much throughout last year now suddenly its halved ? Its not even halved really as westbound trains are at 17 and 28 mins past the hour so a significant 49 minute gap between trains for what is generally a turn up and go service. Eastbound its 40 mins max between services.

 

[LA50041]

Do Southern run srevices London Victoria - Brighton and/or the Gatwick Express? Hoping to do a late-night Brighton - Victoria direct service early March midweek (leavig around 11pm-ish) but nothing appears on NRE; I'm confused!?

it will depend on engineering works, do you have a date in mind? It may be that the new timetables being worked on now are not published downstream yet

 

[Howardh]

it will depend on engineering works, do you have a date in mind? It may be that the new timetables being worked on now are not published downstream yet

Yes, w/c Monday 7th. If the timetables are announced shortly - ie before Friday this week, I can book but not if they aren't!

 

[LA50041]

Yes, w/c Monday 7th. If the timetables are announced shortly - ie before Friday this week, I can book but not if they aren't!

The last through train to Brighton on Mon-Wednesday that week is the 2325 arriving 0036, Thursday and Friday will be the 0002 to Worthing arriving brighton 0116.

The timetables have only just been finalised, so probably wont be on National rail until late next week.

 

[Howardh]

The last through train to Brighton on Mon-Wednesday that week is the 2325 arriving 0036, Thursday and Friday will be the 0002 to Worthing arriving brighton 0116.

The timetables have only just been finalised, so probably wont be on National rail until late next week.

Thanks - it's the return journey Brighton - Victoria I need! Note that the Thameslink trains appear to cover Brighton/St Pancras which would get me close to my hotel, but would prefer Victoria as it's much quicker.

 

[LA50041]

Thanks - it's the return journey Brighton - Victoria I need! Note that the Thameslink trains appear to cover Brighton/St Pancras which would get me close to my hotel, but would prefer Victoria as it's much quicker.

Ah no Worries, the last one from Brighton that week is 2313 arriving VIC at 0041

 

[Howardh]

Ah no Worries, the last one from Brighton that week is 2313 arriving VIC at 0041

Thanks; I'm staying at the Travelodge near Euston so that would be perfect for an evening out. Hoprfully the Victoria line will be operating at that time - think it's the "night tube" but the TFL site says there's a risk of strikes *serches for the night bus timetables!*.

 

[Lewlew]

Thanks; I'm staying at the Travelodge near Euston so that would be perfect for an evening out. Hoprfully the Victoria line will be operating at that time - think it's the "night tube" but the TFL site says there's a risk of strikes *serches for the night bus timetables!*.

Thameslink to St Pancras then it's a 10 min walk to Euston

 

[LA50041]

Thanks; I'm staying at the Travelodge near Euston so that would be perfect for an evening out. Hoprfully the Victoria line will be operating at that time - think it's the "night tube" but the TFL site says there's a risk of strikes *serches for the night bus timetables!*.

I'm not an expert on the tube, but I think the night tube only runs at weekends

 

[Lewlew]

I'm not an expert on the tube, but I think the night tube only runs at weekends

Friday and Saturday night only. Last northbound train Mon - Thurs from Victoria is at 0035

 

[Howardh]

I'm not an expert on the tube, but I think the night tube only runs at weekends

Thanks, didn't know that...looks like Victoria's out and the trip must be back to St pancras.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks, didn't know that...looks like Victoria's out and the trip must be back to St pancras.

There are easy night bus options from Victoria to the Euston area. The 390 door to door; the 24 to within a couple of minutes' walk of Euston. And with a change en route, various other options door-to-door too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Some significant reductions from February 28th, with Uckfield going back down to 2-hourly off-peak;

So is this is the price for restoring services to London Bridge? ie uses same crewing levels.

I suspect stakeholders on the line would have accepted an hourly service to E.Croydon over this option.

GTR are making a number of comments over these changes which set the tone for the future I suspect

https://www.southernrailway.com/coronavirus-information/latest-on-our-rail-service

At least they are identifying driver training is a key issue

One example is a backlog of training for drivers, meaning fewer are available than is ideal. For a long period during the pandemic, new drivers and those undergoing their standard route refresher training could not train with another person in the confined space of a train cab. This was due to social distancing restrictions. This backlog is clearing but without up-to-date training, it means fewer are available overall.

or that commuting is returning

Prioritising commuters will, however, mean some reduction in other services. Where possible, we’ve tried to make these in the middle of the day when fewer people are travelling.

but this is the telling statement

The simple fact is that we need to balance the choices we make going forward with what’s affordable to run once we establish what the ‘new world’ of travel looks like.

at least it ends on a possible positive

Our next timetable change will take place in mid-May, where we plan to provide a further uplift of services as far as possible given the careful balance we need to consider for the future.

 

[Bishopstone]

The loss of through services from Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton is the big shocker for me, as it’s a journey I have to make occasionally for work purposes. All stations to Chichester; a 20 minute connection, and then all stations to Portsmouth on the ex-Littlehampton 313 will put me back in my car, despite the A27 being slow in parts.

Some journeys I’ve searched involve a slightly faster run across Coastway, but then require a second change at Havant onto SWR. From experience, the chances of two connections ‘working’ on West Coastway are slim, and I wouldn’t rely upon this if I had a meeting booked.

 

[Howardh]

There are easy night bus options from Victoria to the Euston area. The 390 door to door; the 24 to within a couple of minutes' walk of Euston. And with a change en route, various other options door-to-door too.

Thanks, yes, I've looked that up. Surprised it's not an "N" number, but they appear to be every 20' will into the night. So if on schedule, Brighton to Victoria + bus to Euston might be a touch quicker than Thameslink.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2022 ==

The loss of through services from Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton is the big shocker for me, as it’s a journey I have to make occasionally for work purposes. All stations to Chichester; a 20 minute connection, and then all stations to Portsmouth on the ex-Littlehampton 313 will put me back in my car, despite the A27 being slow in parts.

Some journeys I’ve searched involve a slightly faster run across Coastway, but then require a second change at Havant onto SWR. From experience, the chances of two connections ‘working’ on West Coastway are slim, and I wouldn’t rely upon this if I had a meeting booked.

Travelling from Lancashire to Brighton frequently - hey that's retirement for you!! - flying Manchester > Southampton and then the train with one, maybe two changes to Brighton is and alternative to going through London. If there aren't direct trains to Southampton and connections that lose time then the advantages begin to disappear.

To get from Lancashire to the Isle of Wight though I'm pretty sure I'd fly to Southampton every time.