Southern Further Timetable changes from 19th Feb

[Callum J]

Am I right in thinking off-peak West Croydon to Victoria via Crystal Palace, plus the off-peak Victoria-London Bridge via Crystal Palace loop services, are still not coming back? I thought we were a mere week away from pretty much all Covid restrictions being lifted? How does Southern justify this? Surely the whole line via West Norwood needs to be handed over to London Overground if the best Southern is interested in is only running services from Crystal Palace as far as Balham.

 

[JonathanH]

I thought we were a mere week away from pretty much all Covid restrictions being lifted?

Are we a mere week away from demand returning to the levels of March 2020 and Southern having a full complement of traincrew? There have to be service cuts somewhere on their network. The trick is affecting the least number of people.

Crystal Palace to New Cross Gate has the Overground. The service via West Norwood doesn't look ideal but it does look like the West Croydon to Victoria service is in the timetable for next week.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks, yes, I've looked that up. Surprised it's not an "N" number, but they appear to be every 20' will into the night. So if on schedule, Brighton to Victoria + bus to Euston might be a touch quicker than Thameslink.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2022 ==

London bus routes which run 24 hours a day serving exactly the same places and with the same end-points round the clock aren't any longer given an "N" from 1am to 5am (or whatever) as was once the case - though some of them are quite a bit less frequent during the night. They're called "24-hour" routes, but are shown on publicity along with "N" numbered routes on any maps of "night bus" routes. Many "N" routes - though far from all - are based on the day route of the same number, but just with a diversion or extension at one or both ends.

 

[Tomp94]

This is poor from Southern, for the west coastway, who's services are already busier than most, and an even worse schedule than the Dec arrangements.
No Brighton - Hove Shuttles, no direct trains to Portsmouth or Southampton.
No west worthing stoppers.
Can only go as far west as Chichester, without having to change. And passengers wanting Portsmouth will seemingly have to pick up a banger at Chichester!

 

[gray1404]

Are there any signs of the Southern services to and from Milton Keynes Central returning?

 

[Lewlew]

Are there any signs of the Southern services to and from Milton Keynes Central returning?

They've been running on Saturdays recently. Nothing during the week though.

 

[Howardh]

This is poor from Southern, for the west coastway, who's services are already busier than most, and an even worse schedule than the Dec arrangements.
No Brighton - Hove Shuttles, no direct trains to Portsmouth or Southampton.
No west worthing stoppers.
Can only go as far west as Chichester, without having to change. And passengers wanting Portsmouth will seemingly have to pick up a banger at Chichester!

If you need to do that, they should let you on the No7 for free!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Sorry to appear dim but why the reductions as we are getting out of the Covid issues arent we. My local station remained on its 4tph each way pretty much throughout last year now suddenly its halved ? Its not even halved really as westbound trains are at 17 and 28 mins past the hour so a significant 49 minute gap between trains for what is generally a turn up and go service. Eastbound its 40 mins max between services.

Its the effect of two years accumulation of lack of training and recruitment.
Train maintenance due to lack of depot staff
Lack of maintenance on the infrastructure
It cannot be fixed overnight

 

[James H]

Are there any signs of the Southern services to and from Milton Keynes Central returning?

From Monday 14 March, the following peak-hour services will be reintroduced:

• 05:27 Balham to Milton Keynes Central
• 07:01 Milton Keynes Central to Clapham Junction
• 17:16 Selhurst to Milton Keynes Central
• 19:16 Milton Keynes Central to Selhurst

Train Timetables | Train Times & Timetables | Thameslink

Find train times for your route and download timetables and maps for all Thameslink services.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

 

[D7666]

From Monday 14 March, the following peak-hour services will be reintroduced:

• 05:27 Balham to Milton Keynes Central
• 07:01 Milton Keynes Central to Clapham Junction
• 17:16 Selhurst to Milton Keynes Central
• 19:16 Milton Keynes Central to Selhurst

Train Timetables | Train Times & Timetables | Thameslink

Find train times for your route and download timetables and maps for all Thameslink services.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

AIUI all completly permanently axed from May timetable.

No incentive to restore it now.

 

[Lewlew]

AIUI all completly permanently axed from May timetable.

What is?

 

[JonathanH]

What is?

Milton Keynes beyond two extensions to Hemel Hempstead and a core service to Watford Junction I imagine.

 

[bramling]

Milton Keynes beyond two extensions to Hemel Hempstead and a core service to Watford Junction I imagine.

I wonder what the purpose of Hemel is. Either couldn’t get a Watford turn back at the required time, or to preserve crew knowledge over a diversionary route?

Notwithstanding the “run as required” paths, it’s probably at least a reasonable bet that SN won’t return to Milton Keynes.

 

[Lewlew]

Milton Keynes beyond two extensions to Hemel Hempstead and a core service to Watford Junction I imagine.

That's the Sunday service. In the evenings, if the slow lines are closed then they terminate at Watford then run up to Bourne End to reverse.

RTT is showing a normal M-F service from May through to December but scheduled as "Runs as required".

Realtime Trains | Departures from Hemel Hempstead all day on 23/05/2022

Train information at Hemel Hempstead all day on 23/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I hope it's not withdrawn, it's a very useful service when it runs.

 

[JonathanH]

RTT is showing a normal M-F service from May through to December but scheduled as "Runs as required".

For "Runs as required" read cancelled. They appear to be the services which exist in the base timetable but are being withdrawn / already don't run.

I hope it's not withdrawn, it's a very useful service when it runs.

Clapham Junction to Watford Junction maintains the link (as does using London Overground).

 

[Lewlew]

For "Runs as required" read cancelled. They appear to be the services which exist in the base timetable but are being withdrawn / already don't run.


Clapham Junction to Watford Junction maintains the link (as does using London Overground).

They also stop at Wembley Central from MK which meant I was able to get to work in less than an hour.

 

[D7666]

What is?

The entire Southern service via West London line.

 

[Esker-pades]

I hope it's not withdrawn, it's a very useful service when it runs.

The entire Southern service via West London line.

Not true. Cut back to run Clapham/Croydon - Watford Junction. Highly likely permanent.

 

[gray1404]

So from mid March 2 services a day. But from May Southern no longer serves MKC and services cut to CLJ to WFJ (with a couple of extensions to Hemel Hempstead)?

 

[JonathanH]

So from mid March 2 services a day. But from May Southern no longer serves MKC and services cut to CLJ to WFJ (with a couple of extensions to Hemel Hempstead)?

That is certainly what is suggested by RTT and the discussion in this thread.

 

[miklcct]

The loss of through services from Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton is the big shocker for me, as it’s a journey I have to make occasionally for work purposes

What?! Does that mean a change at Barnham is always required? How many trains per hour will remain between Southampton - Barnham and Barnham - Brighton?

 

[30907]

What?! Does that mean a change at Barnham is always required? How many trains per hour will remain between Southampton - Barnham and Barnham - Brighton?

To save you doing the reearch, the answers are:
Almost always (at Chichester if you prefer);
one;
two.

 

[pompeyfan]

To save you doing the reearch, the answers are:
Almost always (at Chichester if you prefer);
one;
two.

What’s the justification in significantly reducing the timetable? Surely it’s not covid related? The new calling patterns and journey times are almost like managed decline.

 

[pepperpot80]

The real kicker on the West Coastway is that there is no reasonable alternative. Between the lack of coach service, the poor train connections at Clapham, and the slow, now interrupted service by train along the coast, this corridor is poorly served. Just in time for the Easter and Summer holidays too! I look forward to packed, sweaty 377s.

As someone who regularly travels for work and leisure between businesses and friends along the coast (Sussex through to Dorset), these changes make the train a much harder choice. The changes don't particularly increase overall timings, but they remove some good (if tight) connections, and frankly the thought of yet another change being forced upon you at Chichester is leavened only by the half-decent café. Hopefully it'll be open for those evening connections: I'm sure the civil servants have thought of that, right?

Still, it's better to know in advance that you have a rubbish connection at Southampton and will be kicked off the train by Barnham; it makes a change from the penny lottery that has been going on up to now.

I suspect there is a reasonable business to be made here from a canny coach / express bus operator. It's not going to be the easiest corridor to run, as the A27 is a challenging coach corridor traffic-wise at the best of times, even before you start the Arundel works. But there is a market there - students commuting along the coast, plenty of day trippers to Dorset, Gunwharf, and the west of England, and also a significant business market. Someone needs to put the Department for Transport under some pressure here: it's civil servants making these decisions, and they can make these decisions at the moment because the revenue on these flows (limited as it is) doesn't have an acceptable non-rail alternative. People will argue that this market might switch to the car, but, again, I wouldn't wish an evening on the A/M27 on anyone, and that's if you have a licence/car/budget. If the service is truthfully more resilient as a result of this, then that might make it a bit easier to swallow. But nothing about this screams resilience: it looks more like a continued lack of staff, and no desire from the DfT to subsidise the service. As you say, pompeyfan: managed decline.

 

[bramling]

What’s the justification in significantly reducing the timetable? Surely it’s not covid related? The new calling patterns and journey times are almost like managed decline.

Managed decline seems to be a thing on various elements of the TSGN franchise. Look at something like the Hertford Loop, which now has a worse service than the 1990s in terms of frequency (albeit 6-car trains whereas in the 90s it would mainly have been 3-car off-peak).

 

[miklcct]

The real kicker on the West Coastway is that there is no reasonable alternative. Between the lack of coach service, the poor train connections at Clapham, and the slow, now interrupted service by train along the coast, this corridor is poorly served. Just in time for the Easter and Summer holidays too! I look forward to packed, sweaty 377s.

As someone who regularly travels for work and leisure between businesses and friends along the coast (Sussex through to Dorset), these changes make the train a much harder choice. The changes don't particularly increase overall timings, but they remove some good (if tight) connections, and frankly the thought of yet another change being forced upon you at Chichester is leavened only by the half-decent café. Hopefully it'll be open for those evening connections: I'm sure the civil servants have thought of that, right?

Still, it's better to know in advance that you have a rubbish connection at Southampton and will be kicked off the train by Barnham; it makes a change from the penny lottery that has been going on up to now.

I suspect there is a reasonable business to be made here from a canny coach / express bus operator. It's not going to be the easiest corridor to run, as the A27 is a challenging coach corridor traffic-wise at the best of times, even before you start the Arundel works. But there is a market there - students commuting along the coast, plenty of day trippers to Dorset, Gunwharf, and the west of England, and also a significant business market. Someone needs to put the Department for Transport under some pressure here: it's civil servants making these decisions, and they can make these decisions at the moment because the revenue on these flows (limited as it is) doesn't have an acceptable non-rail alternative. People will argue that this market might switch to the car, but, again, I wouldn't wish an evening on the A/M27 on anyone, and that's if you have a licence/car/budget. If the service is truthfully more resilient as a result of this, then that might make it a bit easier to swallow. But nothing about this screams resilience: it looks more like a continued lack of staff, and no desire from the DfT to subsidise the service. As you say, pompeyfan: managed decline.

But we have no choice as cheap air travel and cheap train travel are all found in the area served by Southern. People who are served exclusively by XC and small airports not served by easyJet are much worse off due to its ridiculous pricing.

easyJet is well known for its cheap flights and Southern is well known for its cheap trains, and the combination is found at Gatwick Airport, so the area around there is the best in terms of transport/

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The real kicker on the West Coastway is that there is no reasonable alternative. Between the lack of coach service, the poor train connections at Clapham, and the slow, now interrupted service by train along the coast, this corridor is poorly served. Just in time for the Easter and Summer holidays too! I look forward to packed, sweaty 377s.

As someone who regularly travels for work and leisure between businesses and friends along the coast (Sussex through to Dorset), these changes make the train a much harder choice. The changes don't particularly increase overall timings, but they remove some good (if tight) connections, and frankly the thought of yet another change being forced upon you at Chichester is leavened only by the half-decent café. Hopefully it'll be open for those evening connections: I'm sure the civil servants have thought of that, right?

Still, it's better to know in advance that you have a rubbish connection at Southampton and will be kicked off the train by Barnham; it makes a change from the penny lottery that has been going on up to now.

I suspect there is a reasonable business to be made here from a canny coach / express bus operator. It's not going to be the easiest corridor to run, as the A27 is a challenging coach corridor traffic-wise at the best of times, even before you start the Arundel works. But there is a market there - students commuting along the coast, plenty of day trippers to Dorset, Gunwharf, and the west of England, and also a significant business market. Someone needs to put the Department for Transport under some pressure here: it's civil servants making these decisions, and they can make these decisions at the moment because the revenue on these flows (limited as it is) doesn't have an acceptable non-rail alternative. People will argue that this market might switch to the car, but, again, I wouldn't wish an evening on the A/M27 on anyone, and that's if you have a licence/car/budget. If the service is truthfully more resilient as a result of this, then that might make it a bit easier to swallow. But nothing about this screams resilience: it looks more like a continued lack of staff, and no desire from the DfT to subsidise the service. As you say, pompeyfan: managed decline.

The changes are train crew led and the the Brighton to Portsmouth/Southampton services return in may.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect there is a reasonable business to be made here from a canny coach / express bus operator. It's not going to be the easiest corridor to run, as the A27 is a challenging coach corridor traffic-wise at the best of times, even before you start the Arundel works. But there is a market there - students commuting along the coast, plenty of day trippers to Dorset, Gunwharf, and the west of England, and also a significant business market.

Absolutely not. The 700 is not really a limited stop bus any more and is split into sections because of unreliability. National Express don't run the 315 any more or any other coach service.

Train or car for travel of any distance along the south coast. The train is at a very reasonable price for longer distance journeys as well. The full timetable, when it runs, offers a good service but if the traincrew aren't available something has to give.

 

[pompeyfan]

Stagecoach did attempt the 800 coach route a good 15 years ago which stayed for one season. It was a limited stop from Brighton to Portsmouth / Southampton but not enough people used it.

 

[Graham H]

Absolutely not. The 700 is not really a limited stop bus any more and is split into sections because of unreliability. National Express don't run the 315 any more or any other coach service.

Train or car for travel of any distance along the south coast. The train is at a very reasonable price for longer distance journeys as well. The full timetable, when it runs, offers a good service but if the traincrew aren't available something has to give.

I agree, the A27 is awful and from Portsmouth any road trip to Brighton is slow due to bottlenecks at Arundel and through Worthing. Even though the train takes an hour for its 40 mile journey from my local station to Brighton it beats the road trip hands down in my opinion. The bus is a joke, the old 700 Coastliner is split into 3 separate sections and I just looked and it gave me a journey time of 3hrs 45mins for the same journey from my local stop. Does a man with a red flag walk ahead of the bus ???