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What would be useful would be buses that fill gaps like that being in the journey planners and railway fares system. I know this was tried once (RailLinks) but it was a half-job and in the very early days of journey planners - I reckon it'd work now.
Except the Uckfield line doesn't really have anywhere large on it south of Croydon - so the demand to travel to Uckfield or Lewes is going to be quite limited.
The majority of any demand to travel towards Lewes is going to come from Uckfield and maybe Crowborough - but it's going to be pretty insignificant. Better to have the buses so they work for local demand and not worry about a link to the railway line.
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I am a strong supported of reopening Uckfield to Lewes line as Crowborough and Uckfield are rapidly growing towns. Crowborough is now a large town with a bus service which serves only a small area of the town.
Whilst the 29 (plus varations 28, 29X etc) bus Tunbridge Wells to Brighton runs every 30 minutes Mondays to Saturdays and hourly on Sundays.......... but the throughout journey time of around 1 hour 50 minutes compare with around 50 minutes when the train service operated.
As an overview I can understand that levelling up means more money being spent in the north where transport links are poor or non existent.
I'm not sure it is. The South East is often regarded as a rail land of milk and honey, and to go to London it very often is - but the cross-country connections are appalling. If you look at the North, most journeys can be made by public transport in a vaguely practical manner, even if car would usually be a bit quicker. In the SE, if you're not going to London it is very often simply not possible or incredibly convoluted to the point that cycling or even walking would be quicker, often involving going into London and back out.
East West Rail will help greatly, but the situation is worse than one line will solve.
Indeed. A good example would be if you wanted to go to Devon from the Bournemouth area, there’s simply no point attempting it by rail as it’ll take considerably longer than going by car. There aren’t many examples of that in the North, the only ones that’d even come close that I can think of are Newcastle to/from Preston/Lancaster/Blackpool, for which there’s not exactly a huge demand for.
I'm not sure there's "huge" demand for travel between Bournemouth and Devon either.
To put it in context, Bournemouth to Exeter is 90 miles as the crow flies - that's not an "everyday" journey length.
There was never a link along the south coast from Weymouth / Dorchester to Exeter in any case - it was proposed in the 1800s but never happened, that should give a pretty clear indication of the lack of demand. And when the S&D gets mentioned, it's worth remembering that Bournemouth - Bath was no slower on the other routes even though it was longer, such was the relatively slow linespeed of the S&D.
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As the levelling up white paper showed, there are plenty of places that need levelling up in the South - predominantly coastal towns, particularly in the East. The trouble is in many cases this demonstrates the limitations of rail funding in levelling up, as plenty of these towns already have decent links (in the national context) to London. It's questionable how much more the railways in particular can improve the situation.
If you look at the "deprived" areas in the south / south-east the usual suspects are Lowestoft, Great Yarmouth, Clacton - places like that. And all of those have decent rail links, in the case of the first one to Norwich, the second to both Norwich and Ipswich - which makes sense given those are the major regional centres. And in the case of Clacton to Colchester and London. So it's difficult to see what you could do to their rail links which would "improve" their fortunes.
There's a reasonable road to Poole from SE Devon, but to be honest the country inbetween is harsh & not exactly populated ( natural border country just as it's been for millenia ).
Part of Paignton is top 200 in the deprivation list & that has good links for the area, transport or the absence of does not seem a useful indicator.
Are there that many Exeter - London passengers on those services ? I Know I'm one of those people who takes the slower route, but everyone on here seems ti be at pains to remind me of how atypical a passenger I am.
Having taken it, I wouldn't, because that horrid Class 158 transmission whine was rattling my ears by the time I got there, to the point that I binned the return half* and coughed up to go back on GWR.
It does have a certain branch-line-y charm though.
Hitchin - Luton has never had a rail link and the bus service is actually pretty good - 4 buses an hour taking about 30 mins and hourly on Sunday.
Hertford's not a significant place (despite being a County town) - the University campuses are the main reason for travel between Hatfield & Hertford and even now there are frequent buses - a combinatiom of the 341/641 and 724. The rail link between Welwyn & Hertford succumbed in the early 50s, long pre Beeching, which gives an idea as to the level of demand for travel to / from Hertford.
On the contrary they're quite good examples, because they show that sometimes a reasonably good commercial bus route dors exist, but it still comes with a significant number of drawbacks that probably wouldn't be faced in a planned system e.g. poor connection with other local routes, very expensive inter-available fares, rubbish service early and late or on Sundays. Etc
South East levelling up may not be needed now, but once HS2 to Manchester has been completed in 20 years time, many northern towns will find they have a much faster connection to London than several towns in the South East. While such a scenario demonstrates that levelling up has been a success, it would end up shifting the problem as London commuters move to cheaper areas up north which now have quicker journey times.
While not quite in the South East, I pointed out on another thread that Poole is one of the closest settlements to London where the fastest rail journey time takes at least 2 hours. With no improvements in the pipeline for the SWML, this line could really end up sticking out like a sore thumb 50 years from now, especially as it also serves Weymouth in the South West which despite being the same distance from London as Birmingham, would end up taking at least three times as long post-HS2. If this line is to keep up with others, it needs grade separation at Woking, four tracking from Basingstoke to Southampton and redoubling from Moreton to Dorchester at the very least.
It’s going to be an issue for the wider South West as well. London to Plymouth isn’t likely to see a journey time of less than 3 hours anytime soon, which could potentially make it one of the furthest major cities from London time-wise. While we need to be focusing on the North now, we need to eventually shift focus onto other regions such as the South West to prevent them from becoming the new North.
While we need to be focusing on the North now, we need to eventually shift focus onto other regions such as the South West to prevent them from becoming the new North.
On the contrary they're quite good examples, because they show that sometimes a reasonably good commercial bus route dors exist, but it still comes with a significant number of drawbacks that probably wouldn't be faced in a planned system e.g. poor connection with other local routes, very expensive inter-available fares, rubbish service early and late or on Sundays. Etc
Interestingly, both of those examples have a service level which is broadly unchanged over the last 40+ years. In the case of Hatfield and Hertford even in an "integrated" time when the buses were run by London Transport and then London Country (NBC) - the service level was relatively low, due to the lack of demand.
The only real change has been on the Hitchin - Luton corridor where previously the United Counties / Luton & District services then continued to Letchworth and Baldock - a legacy of the London Passenger Transport Act of 1933 which arbitrarily drew a line south of those places which effectively gave LT a monopoly over services in those areas. It was only in the early 90s were those diverted away from Letchworth and Baldock and towards Stevenage which was considered to be a better destination.
So suggesting there's untapped demand which could be addressed through either new rail lines or better regulation of the buses in those examples seems misplaced.
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South East levelling up may not be needed now, but once HS2 to Manchester has been completed in 20 years time, many northern towns will find they have a much faster connection to London than several towns in the South East. While such a scenario demonstrates that levelling up has been a success, it would end up shifting the problem as London commuters move to cheaper areas up north which now have quicker journey times.
The thing that will stop that happening will be the cost. You're already looking at £ 5k + season tickets from places like Northampton or Wellingborough which are firmly in the London commuter zone.
South East levelling up may not be needed now, but once HS2 to Manchester has been completed in 20 years time, many northern towns will find they have a much faster connection to London than several towns in the South East. While such a scenario demonstrates that levelling up has been a success, it would end up shifting the problem as London commuters move to cheaper areas up north which now have quicker journey times.
While not quite in the South East, I pointed out on another thread that Poole is one of the closest settlements to London where the fastest rail journey time takes at least 2 hours. With no improvements in the pipeline for the SWML, this line could really end up sticking out like a sore thumb 50 years from now, especially as it also serves Weymouth in the South West which despite being the same distance from London as Birmingham, would end up taking at least three times as long post-HS2. If this line is to keep up with others, it needs grade separation at Woking, four tracking from Basingstoke to Southampton and redoubling from Moreton to Dorchester at the very least.
It’s going to be an issue for the wider South West as well. London to Plymouth isn’t likely to see a journey time of less than 5 hours anytime soon, which could potentially make it the furthest major city from London time-wise. While we need to be focusing on the North now, we need to eventually shift focus onto other regions such as the South West to prevent them from becoming the new North.
Definitely a case for 25kv overhead electrification at least between Basingstoke and Southampton if the infills in the GWR scheme north of Didcot and electrification of Chiltern were to go ahead, allowing through electric working to the Midlands and North West from the South Coast. There is now an enormous amount of freight traffic to and from the Southampton area - mainly containers and automotive exports and imports, all of which rely on diesel traction. In addition, even with the present reduction in frequencies, there are still a fair number of Cross-Country services that are also presently diesel-operated. This results in large numbers of passenger and freight services having to operate by consuming unacceptable fossil fuels through areas which have already been electrified.
So short-term, no need to panic, but definitely a strong contender in the medium term.
So suggesting there's untapped demand which could be addressed through either new rail lines or better regulation of the buses in those examples seems misplaced.
In general there's not untapped commercial demand. That's absolutely not what I was suggesting. The private bus companies in this country are very good at finding niches where they can try to bring out demand that might make a profit, and equally at abandoning attempts where it is clear that they're not going to be successful. I could take any number of places where the government might wish to "level up" where the current commercials don't support a bus service of any kind, or only a totally useless service. To pick a few of completely random examples: Altrincham to Cadishead, Wilmslow to Poynton or Wetherby to Otley. The untapped demand would be generated by the policy inducing growth (and more importantly by the decline of the car and the rise of active modes for the shortest journeys), it's not demand which today can be exploited by the bus companies acting in isolation.
In general there's not untapped commercial demand. That's absolutely not what I was suggesting. I could take any number of places where thr government might wish to "level up" where the current commercials don't support a bus service of any kind, or only a totally useless service. To pick a few of completely random examples: Altrincham to Cadishead, Wilmslow to Poynton or Wetherby to Otley. The untapped demand would be generated by the policy inducing growth (and more importantly by the decline of the car and the rise of active modes for the shortest journeys), it's not demand which today can be exploited by the bus companies acting in isolation.
Combination with planning policy would get the most benefit, as I believe is planned for East West Rail. That is, if reopening the railway, also plan a large new town around an existing or new station.
Combination with planning policy would get the most benefit, as I believe is planned for East West Rail. That is, if reopening the railway, also plan a large new town around an existing or new station.
Indeed. There's effectively no way to "level up" without using both transport policy and land use policy (mainly new low carbon housing, both in construction and in the lifestyle of its occupiers). But of course if still comes down to resources. There has to be enough resource behind both for it to work.
Indeed. There's effectively no way to "level up" without using both transport policy and land use policy (mainly new low carbon housing, both in construction and in the lifestyle of its occupiers). But of course if still comes down to resources. There has to be enough resource behind both for it to work.
For reference it's been done many times before - John Betjeman's Metroland one of the most prominent examples. You can give up and close your railway because there's little demand for it, or you can make the demand for it by building houses and business premises around it and stations for them. Won't always work (I don't think we're going to see the next MK at Dolwyddelan, for example) but in a lot of places it will, particularly within range of London for the "new normal" of two days a week.
In general there's not untapped commercial demand. That's absolutely not what I was suggesting. The private bus companies in this country are very good at finding niches where they can try to bring out demand that might make a profit, and equally at abandoning attempts where it is clear that they're not going to be successful. I could take any number of places where the government might wish to "level up" where the current commercials don't support a bus service of any kind, or only a totally useless service. To pick a few of completely random examples: Altrincham to Cadishead, Wilmslow to Poynton or Wetherby to Otley. The untapped demand would be generated by the policy inducing growth (and more importantly by the decline of the car and the rise of active modes for the shortest journeys), it's not demand which today can be exploited by the bus companies acting in isolation.
But to take Hatfield & Hertford as a practical example, the *only* way you'd increase demand would be with a huge increase in housing. Between Hatfield and Hertford you have a couple of small villages like Essendon - that's it.
And there's precious little reason to go to Hertford from Hatfield - it's not got a large number of employers, it has few shops. It simply isn't a traffic destination.
Going the other way, there is the University, but UNO have worked their bus routes around the demands of that, yes there are jobs on what was the old British Aerospace site, but equally you've got Stevenage, London and Harlow all within easy reach of Hertford - 2 of them rail linked. So again, increasing provision won't create demand. And the ability to build a load of housing between Hatfield and Hertford is going to be limited by things like Hatfield Park.
Going the other way, there is the University, but UNO have worked their bus routes around the demands of that, yes there are jobs on what was the old British Aerospace site, but equally you've got Stevenage, London and Harlow all within easy reach of Hertford - 2 of them rail linked. So again, increasing provision won't create demand. And the ability to build a load of housing between Hatfield and Hertford is going to be limited by things like Hatfield Park.
Uno (nee Universitybus) is an extremely interesting example of forward planning. You build your university on cheap land in the middle of a field (possibly slightly exaggerated), but instead of what some would do and just rely on people driving to it, you put on a set of bus services for your students...then you grow that into a profitable bus company that provides a net income to your university, including getting together with another university in the middle of a field (Cranfield) to do the same for them too and take the money!
It's something we could do with seeing more of, but it requires a certain way of thinking the UK often lacks.
It's like supermarket free buses, but really successful.
Uno (nee Universitybus) is an extremely interesting example of forward planning. You build your university on cheap land in the middle of a field (possibly slightly exaggerated), but instead of what some would do and just rely on people driving to it, you put on a set of bus services for your students...then you grow that into a profitable bus company that provides a net income to your university, including getting together with another university in the middle of a field (Cranfield) to do the same for them too and take the money!
It's something we could do with seeing more of, but it requires a certain way of thinking the UK often lacks.
It's like supermarket free buses, but really successful.
With respect - I don't think you've understood the history of UoH.
It was originally Hatfield Technical College, later Hatfield Polytechnic, built around the same time as the New Town expansion of Hatfield. During the 70s various mergers etc happened which led to it having several campuses including Balls Park (Hertford) and Wall Hall near Watford.
It was in the 80s that the Polytechnic (as it still was) set up a series of shuttle buses between the campuses but it wasn't until 1992 it turned that into an 'at arm's length' bus company and opened the services up to the public.
Uno / University Bus wasn't part of the original plan of the Polytechnic / University, but was a logical development for them in the early 90s.
The solution to that issue is to upgrade the power supply so that it can handle the extra electric trains, as has been done recently on parts of the ECML.
Indeed. A good example would be if you wanted to go to Devon from the Bournemouth area, there’s simply no point attempting it by rail as it’ll take considerably longer than going by car. There aren’t many examples of that in the North, the only ones that’d even come close that I can think of are Newcastle to/from Preston/Lancaster/Blackpool, for which there’s not exactly a huge demand for.
North Downs Line
The benefit of a Woking flyover would be removing the conflicts that London bound services from the Portsmouth Direct Line currently have with SWML services continuing west. In terms of usefulness, it would easily be as useful as the Hitchin flyover is in improving capacity and reliability. A Woking flyover is probably the infrastructure project that would (apart from electrification schemes) bring by far the most benefit in the South East.
Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme is the infrastructure project that would give by far the most benefit to the South East, and the only infrastructure project that I think should go ahead in the South East in the next 10 years considering the financial situation. I doubt it will happen as there is no money, but if you were to chose one, it would be the Croydon Area Remodelling scheme. And to be honest, I'd chose somewhere like Lewisham, Tanners Hill Junction and Parks Bridge Junction over Woking as a more beneficial scheme, although one doesn't exist for Lewisham, at least as far as I'm aware.
Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme is the infrastructure project that would give by far the most benefit to the South East, and the only infrastructure project that I think should go ahead in the South East in the next 10 years considering the financial situation. I doubt it will happen as there is no money, but if you were to chose one, it would be the Croydon Area Remodelling scheme. And to be honest, I'd chose somewhere like Lewisham, Tanners Hill Junction and Parks Bridge Junction over Woking as a more beneficial scheme, although one doesn't exist for Lewisham, at least as far as I'm aware.
In a Croydon remodelling scheme would it accelerate point to point timings........No.
Whilst two extra platforms at East Croydon was originally suggested which may introduce a few more extra services..
East Croydon has already got a frequent service to London and a reasonable service to many other places.
A frequent service of buses and Croydon Tramlink serves the surrounding area.
Lewisham, Tanners Hill Junction and Parks Bridge Junction already carry a VERY frequent service of trains
Levelling up means providing services where little or none exist at present.
In a Croydon remodelling scheme would it accelerate point to point timings........No.
Whilst two extra platforms at East Croydon was originally suggested which may introduce a few more extra services..
East Croydon has already got a frequent service to London and a reasonable service to many other places.
A frequent service of buses and Croydon Tramlink serves the surrounding area.
Lewisham, Tanners Hill Junction and Parks Bridge Junction already carry a VERY frequent service of trains
Levelling up means providing services where little or none exist at present.
I was comparing this to Woking, not talking about overall levelling up. Plus those above schemes I mentioned will massively improve reliability, allow more servcies to run into London which will give more opportunity for towns in rural South East to have better connections into London.
In a Croydon remodelling scheme would it accelerate point to point timings........No.
Whilst two extra platforms at East Croydon was originally suggested which may introduce a few more extra services..
East Croydon has already got a frequent service to London and a reasonable service to many other places.
A frequent service of buses and Croydon Tramlink serves the surrounding area.
I think the point was to improve through journeys rather than help people in Croydon itself although the project might have allowed some more connections from points in South London.
However, journey times on many routes through East Croydon are already good by South East standards, certainly compared to routes like Waterloo to Reading for people travelling from Wokingham or Bracknell (or anything else with predominantly two track railway) so whilst the Croydon work would have helped with capacity there are other lines that are much more forgotten.
No work will ever happen that improves Wokingham to Waterloo journey times. Improving Brighton to Victoria times which are better than many routes elsewhere in the country isn't needed either. There is comparatively little levelling up needed in either place.
Paignton has excellent transport links, with both rail and bus terminals right in the town centre, and, remarkably, right next to each other, although the council some decades ago thought it was a great idea to put one leg of a two-lane gyratory system right between them, which seems engineered to encourage a daily emulation of the Monaco Grand Prix across one of the busiest pedestrian crossings in the bay! The multimodal transport hub is also within a few minute's walk of the sea front.
There are no conurbations like Manchester, unless you count all of east Devon & bits of Somerset as Exeter, which from some perspectives it is . There is more of the "North", so of course there are more people total. There *is* some funding of some sort going on down here but no-one seems to want to talk about it & there's definitely no flagship projects. Devolving the peninsula might clarify matters.
Paignton has excellent transport links, with both rail and bus terminals right in the town centre, and, remarkably, right next to each other, although the council some decades ago thought it was a great idea to put one leg of a two-lane gyratory system right between them, which seems engineered to encourage a daily emulation of the Monaco Grand Prix across one of the busiest pedestrian crossings in the bay! The multimodal transport hub is also within a few minute's walk of the sea front.
The two contrasts I remember from the last browse of the map were Paignton & Ilfracombe - both have similarily poor areas, but one's well connected to everywhere & the other has basically nothing, not even a good road. I was going to say good transport won't hurt, but it can price people out of the area ( which admittedly brings it out of deprivation, but doesn't bring the deprived *people* out of it... ). There's some poor areas in London too, noone can really argue about connectivity there...
If you look at a broad view on the 2019 map, the SW and the area round the Wash stick out. If you zoom in, then northern cities start looking awful. Maybe the idea i sto move people out of northern cities to the countryside to make the map look better...
But to take Hatfield & Hertford as a practical example, the *only* way you'd increase demand would be with a huge increase in housing. Between Hatfield and Hertford you have a couple of small villages like Essendon - that's it.
And there's precious little reason to go to Hertford from Hatfield - it's not got a large number of employers, it has few shops. It simply isn't a traffic destination.
Going the other way, there is the University, but UNO have worked their bus routes around the demands of that, yes there are jobs on what was the old British Aerospace site, but equally you've got Stevenage, London and Harlow all within easy reach of Hertford - 2 of them rail linked. So again, increasing provision won't create demand. And the ability to build a load of housing between Hatfield and Hertford is going to be limited by things like Hatfield Park.
You're commenting on exactly the kind of large expansions of residential and commercial property that real 'levelling up' would actually entail.
Of course the government's version might not end up living up to anything in particular. £25 million to clean up a town's high street is neither here nor there, it's mainly about new housing, new high wage jobs and new services to support them.
If you read between the lines of some of tge populist messaging however there's the subtle suggestion that levelling up the North comes at the expense of leveling down London and the home counties. There is of course a certain demographic for whom that will play well. The actual outcomes who knows.
If you read between the lines of some of tge populist messaging however there's the subtle suggestion that levelling up the North comes at the expense of leveling down London and the home counties. There is of course a certain demographic for whom that will play well. The actual outcomes who knows.
If your deprivation metrics just cover the country & not a comparison to a global metric, levelling down London & the home counties would fix everywhere else . All in this together!
If your deprivation metrics just cover the country & not a comparison to a global metric, levelling down London & the home counties would fix everywhere else . All in this together!
Of course that depends what "levelling down" means. More usefully it probably means moving some jobs out of the South East, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if the people are willing to move with them, to cheaper housing and a shorter commute.
Of course that depends what "levelling down" means. More usefully it probably means moving some jobs out of the South East, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if the people are willing to move with them, to cheaper housing and a shorter commute.
Yes, the Met Office moving to Exetrer was meant to be another example, I'm not sure anything much actually followed it though. I doubt it brought south-east pay with it...
Yes, the Met Office moving to Exetrer was meant to be another example, I'm not sure anything much actually followed it though. I doubt it brought south-east pay with it...
Exeter is doing pretty well as a city though, there's all sorts of development going on. I imagine the Met Office is a fairly useful selling point when trying to attract businesses to the city. The salaries for vacancies on the website look ok to me, whether they are lower than before I don't know, but they are a lot higher than average SW salaries
The thing that will stop that happening will be the cost. You're already looking at £ 5k + season tickets from places like Northampton or Wellingborough which are firmly in the London commuter zone.
Definitely a case for 25kv overhead electrification at least between Basingstoke and Southampton if the infills in the GWR scheme north of Didcot and electrification of Chiltern were to go ahead, allowing through electric working to the Midlands and North West from the South Coast.
Not so. Levelling up means enabling more opportunity for development and economic growth in deprived areas. That means building houses, offices, warehouses, factories, and lots of them, plus, yes, the transport to connect them. It does not mean opening lines through pristine countryside in areas that are not deprived.
. All in this together!