Levelling up for the South East

[pompeyfan]

With all the various much needed improvements being announced for the midlands and the north, it got me thinking what would be an “easy win” to further improve the rail network south of the Thames?

I think the much discussed Woking Flyover, Gomshall, Uckfield and Farnborough North projects all have significant merit but I also believe there’s a strong case in AC overhead Waterloo - Redbridge due to potential higher line speed, acceleration and the ability to provide infrastructure for 88 type locos.

 

[The Planner]

With all the various much needed improvements being announced for the midlands and the north, it got me thinking what would be an “easy win” to further improve the rail network south of the Thames?

I think the much discussed Woking Flyover, Gomshall, Uckfield and Farnborough North projects all have significant merit but I also believe there’s a strong case in AC overhead Waterloo - Redbridge due to potential higher line speed, acceleration and the ability to provide infrastructure for 88 type locos.

I think the levelling up assumes the South East has had its fair share, not to get more as it un-levels it again!

 

[DanNCL]

There is certainly not a case for re-electrifying third rail routes with overhead wires for as long as there are unelectrified main lines in this country.

I would agree that a flyover at Woking is needed, as well as electrification of the North Downs and Uckfield lines (with third rail). I would also say that Marshlink needs electrifying, as that would eliminate the last diesel island in the South Eastern chunk of the UK network.

Chiltern electrification is needed, in full. Also needed is completion of GWML electrification to Oxford and Bristol Temple Meads as an absolute minimum - preferably to Devon and to link up with the Chiltern route south of Banbury too.

The South East has had it’s fair share of investment over the last 20 years so doesn’t need levelling up as such. Continued investment is needed in the south east, but for the coming decade or two it’ll need to be lower than in the Midlands and North, not because the South is less worthy (as it isn’t), but because the Midlands and North are currently so far behind where they should be.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

With all the various much needed improvements being announced for the midlands and the north, it got me thinking what would be an “easy win” to further improve the rail network south of the Thames?

I think the much discussed Woking Flyover, Gomshall, Uckfield and Farnborough North projects all have significant merit but I also believe there’s a strong case in AC overhead Waterloo - Redbridge due to potential higher line speed, acceleration and the ability to provide infrastructure for 88 type locos.

There is not any case for overhead electrification on any of the routes you listed

 

[javelin]

As the levelling up white paper showed, there are plenty of places that need levelling up in the South - predominantly coastal towns, particularly in the East. The trouble is in many cases this demonstrates the limitations of rail funding in levelling up, as plenty of these towns already have decent links (in the national context) to London. It's questionable how much more the railways in particular can improve the situation.

 

[pompeyfan]

There is not any case for overhead electrification on any of the routes you listed

I wasn’t particularly clear, I meant that the North Downs, Uckfield (and Salisbury to boot) should be 3rd rail, with the SWML being AC.

It also seems that a lot of focus has been put on the comment for “levelling up”, again may not have been very clear. I meant levelling up type project.

 

[JonathanH]

I wasn’t particularly clear, I meant that the North Downs, Uckfield (and Salisbury to boot) should be 3rd rail, with the SWML being AC.

It also seems that a lot of focus has been put on the comment for “levelling up”, again may not have been very clear. I meant levelling up type project.

It is very clear that there is no money for substantial improvements in the South East for a generation, whether regarded as levelling up or not. The money that is available needs to be focused elsewhere.

Essentially the rail upgrade budget is fixed year on year for a while. That budget has been allocated as published in the Integrated Rail Plan.

Whether there is some other funding that might be able to be tapped for electrification work on the grounds of green economy is a separate matter but ultimately so long as some route is being electrified at any given time, it doesn't really matter whether it is in the South East or elsewhere. The use of 769s on the North Downs Line might still be regarded as progress if it happens even though they will still be using diesel for part of the journey.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I wasn’t particularly clear, I meant that the North Downs, Uckfield (and Salisbury to boot) should be 3rd rail, with the SWML being AC.

It also seems that a lot of focus has been put on the comment for “levelling up”, again may not have been very clear. I meant levelling up type project.

There is NO CASE for AC electrification (Overhead) on the SWML.

 

[pompeyfan]

There is NO CASE for AC electrification (Overhead) on the SWML.

There is always a case for something, whether it’s justified or weighs correctly on a cost / benefit scale is a completely different matter.

As mentioned in post 1 it would provide marginally better acceleration, and the ability for freight to run using AC on hybrid locos should more be delivered.

Also, it’s been discussed several times that the current power supply is unlikely to be able to accommodate hybrid units running on 3rd rail that serve Salisbury and Exeter.

Again hypothetical and speculative and I don’t necessarily disagree with your opinion

 

[yorksrob]

As the levelling up white paper showed, there are plenty of places that need levelling up in the South - predominantly coastal towns, particularly in the East. The trouble is in many cases this demonstrates the limitations of rail funding in levelling up, as plenty of these towns already have decent links (in the national context) to London. It's questionable how much more the railways in particular can improve the situation.

Although good transport links have helped Folkestone, as an example, overcome the Loss of its port services and become somewhat trendy. Same could be said of Margate, to an extent.

I doubt that would have happened without the excellent rail links.

I would say further capacity improvements to Waterloo - Exeter could be seen as a leveling up enabler, although this is as much South West as South East.

Hastings suffers from some deprivation (although still a lovely resort with bags of potential) so electrification of the Marshlink to enable longer services integrated with the rest of the coast would fit the bill.

 

[Wynd]

Surely this thread is oxymoronic by nature?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely this thread is oxymoronic by nature?

I'm not sure it is. The South East is often regarded as a rail land of milk and honey, and to go to London it very often is - but the cross-country connections are appalling. If you look at the North, most journeys can be made by public transport in a vaguely practical manner, even if car would usually be a bit quicker. In the SE, if you're not going to London it is very often simply not possible or incredibly convoluted to the point that cycling or even walking would be quicker, often involving going into London and back out.

East West Rail will help greatly, but the situation is worse than one line will solve.

 

[Wynd]

Im going to have to take your word for it, but my understanding is that there are a much greater number of transport options in the South than there are in the North, where options are either limited but often non existent.

My understanding of leveling up is to bring the North of England in line with GDP in the South of England.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im going to have to take your word for it, but my understanding is that there are a much greater number of transport options in the South than there are in the North, where options are either limited but often non existent.

This is completely untrue unless you are going to London or towards another major InterCity destination on that route e.g. from MK to Manchester/Birmingham.

The non-London and non-InterCity connectivity is appalling, and bus services poor or non-existent in most places. The PTE areas definitely have far better bus services.

My understanding of leveling up is to bring the North of England in line with GDP in the South of England.

It is, so public transport probably doesn't feature. But the South East - and yes, it surprised me when I moved here - is only a "land of milk and honey" when it comes to going to (or within) either London or one or two other major InterCity destinations per town (and often not even that, e.g. Aylesbury). Whereas the North has a web-like network of public transport (with a few radial centres like Manchester and Leeds), and buses often filling the gaps to the point that while things like last trains tend to be earlyish, pretty much any journey is doable, at least on Monday-Saturday daytimes, unless it's really exceptionally rural.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

There is always a case for something, whether it’s justified or weighs correctly on a cost / benefit scale is a completely different matter.

As mentioned in post 1 it would provide marginally better acceleration, and the ability for freight to run using AC on hybrid locos should more be delivered.

Also, it’s been discussed several times that the current power supply is unlikely to be able to accommodate hybrid units running on 3rd rail that serve Salisbury and Exeter.

Again hypothetical and speculative and I don’t necessarily disagree with your opinion

There is no case for it as it simply isn’t worth the amount of infrastructure that would have to be moved or changed to fit it. The amount of bridges that would be lifted or track that would have to be dug to make room for overhead. Exeter doesnt have 3rd rail i would suspect as NR proposed in its strategy that it would be overheard on the West of England Main line to Exeter with any units using that line likely to be dual voltage

 

[tbtc]

There is NO CASE for AC electrification (Overhead) on the SWML.

There will be

Infrastructure needs replacing, everything has a lifespan. And when you're going to put new equipment in then you'd have to consider a more efficient form of electrification, given the way that power supplies are limited on some lines - given that pretty much all EMUs in the "Southern Region" are at least capable of being dual voltage, why wouldn't you at least consider overhead electrification when the current Third Rail equipment becomes life expired?

I would say further capacity improvements to Waterloo - Exeter could be seen as a leveling up enabler, although this is as much South West as South East

I'd wager that our new nationalised railway will solve the "problem" by no longer discounting Waterloo fares - why dump cheap tickets on the 159s when you can force people onto the 802s for Paddington instead?

Removing the vast majority of Exeter - London passengers from the Waterloo services will free up seats for those at intermediate stations

 

[yorksrob]

There will be

Infrastructure needs replacing, everything has a lifespan. And when you're going to put new equipment in then you'd have to consider a more efficient form of electrification, given the way that power supplies are limited on some lines - given that pretty much all EMUs in the "Southern Region" are at least capable of being dual voltage, why wouldn't you at least consider overhead electrification when the current Third Rail equipment becomes life expired?



I'd wager that our new nationalised railway will solve the "problem" by no longer discounting Waterloo fares - why dump cheap tickets on the 159s when you can force people onto the 802s for Paddington instead?

Removing the vast majority of Exeter - London passengers from the Waterloo services will free up seats for those at intermediate stations

Are there that many Exeter - London passengers on those services ? I Know I'm one of those people who takes the slower route, but everyone on here seems ti be at pains to remind me of how atypical a passenger I am.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the much discussed Woking Flyover, Gomshall, Uckfield and Farnborough North projects all have significant merit but I also believe there’s a strong case in AC overhead Waterloo - Redbridge due to potential higher line speed, acceleration and the ability to provide infrastructure for 88 type locos.

I must admit to not knowing want the Gomshall and Farnboro’ North projects are. Have I missed something?

There is very little chance of Woking flyover any time soon (what is the benefit?), and even less - precisely zero - of AC electrification Waterloo - Redbridge; the benefits you list are marginal or don’t get realised through AC electrification.

 

[Starmill]

Im going to have to take your word for it, but my understanding is that there are a much greater number of transport options in the South than there are in the North, where options are either limited but often non existent.

My understanding of leveling up is to bring the North of England in line with GDP in the South of England.

Try the transport options for Crowborough to Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead to Crawley, Burgess Hill to Uckfield, Thamesmead to Barking, Windsor to Bracknell, Luton to Hitchin, Hertford to Hatfield, Andover to Winchester etc. You find a range of slow, expensive, infrequent buses and that's it in most cases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2022 ==

I must admit to not knowing want the Gomshall and Farnboro’ North projects are. Have I missed something?

There is very little chance of Woking flyover any time soon (what is the benefit?), and even less - precisely zero - of AC electrification Waterloo - Redbridge; the benefits you list are marginal or don’t get realised through AC electrification.

I think that they are implying DC third rail infill.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2022 ==

Are there that many Exeter - London passengers on those services ? I Know I'm one of those people who takes the slower route, but everyone on here seems ti be at pains to remind me of how atypical a passenger I am.

The Network Railcard is a key driver on that route of why lots of people go end to end.

 

[yorksrob]

The Network Railcard is a key driver on that route of why lots of people go end to end.

I guess if there were a National railcard, it might spread some of the pressure more evenly !

To further expand on TCBC's point, in my experience, there are some good advance fares on that route, but why would they get rid of them on that route but not the GW one when it would likely just exacerbate crowding on the GW route ?

 

[MarkyT]

There will be

Infrastructure needs replacing, everything has a lifespan. And when you're going to put new equipment in then you'd have to consider a more efficient form of electrification, given the way that power supplies are limited on some lines - given that pretty much all EMUs in the "Southern Region" are at least capable of being dual voltage, why wouldn't you at least consider overhead electrification when the current Third Rail equipment becomes life expired?



I'd wager that our new nationalised railway will solve the "problem" by no longer discounting Waterloo fares - why dump cheap tickets on the 159s when you can force people onto the 802s for Paddington instead?

Removing the vast majority of Exeter - London passengers from the Waterloo services will free up seats for those at intermediate stations

Do you advocate increasing other fares along the route commensurately, e.g. London - Axminster. If these fares exist then passengers will always have the option of splitting tickets, so a through fare via the cheaper route should really exist in my mind, then you can make your choice on the balance of convenience and pay the appropriate fare. If the lower price fares from intermediate Devon and Dorset stations on the LSWR were all raised to GWR equivalents, that might have the effect of destroying intermediate longer distance business, encouraging people to drive to Taunton and Castle Cary instead. Then the increased loadings on GWR could be used to justify even further price rises on that route. Can't see any of that being politically acceptable, reponsible in transport planning or environmental terms, or a sensible business plan.

 

[DanNCL]

Also, it’s been discussed several times that the current power supply is unlikely to be able to accommodate hybrid units running on 3rd rail that serve Salisbury and Exeter.

The solution to that issue is to upgrade the power supply so that it can handle the extra electric trains, as has been done recently on parts of the ECML.

but the cross-country connections are appalling. If you look at the North, most journeys can be made by public transport in a vaguely practical manner, even if car would usually be a bit quicker. In the SE, if you're not going to London it is very often simply not possible or incredibly convoluted to the point that cycling or even walking would be quicker, often involving going into London and back out.

East West Rail will help greatly, but the situation is worse than one line will solve.

Indeed. A good example would be if you wanted to go to Devon from the Bournemouth area, there’s simply no point attempting it by rail as it’ll take considerably longer than going by car. There aren’t many examples of that in the North, the only ones that’d even come close that I can think of are Newcastle to/from Preston/Lancaster/Blackpool, for which there’s not exactly a huge demand for.

I must admit to not knowing want the Gomshall and Farnboro’ North projects are. Have I missed something?

North Downs Line

There is very little chance of Woking flyover any time soon (what is the benefit?), and even less - precisely zero - of AC electrification Waterloo - Redbridge; the benefits you list are marginal or don’t get realised through AC electrification.

The benefit of a Woking flyover would be removing the conflicts that London bound services from the Portsmouth Direct Line currently have with SWML services continuing west. In terms of usefulness, it would easily be as useful as the Hitchin flyover is in improving capacity and reliability. A Woking flyover is probably the infrastructure project that would (apart from electrification schemes) bring by far the most benefit in the South East.

 

[Bald Rick]

The benefit of a Woking flyover would be removing the conflicts that London bound services from the Portsmouth Direct Line currently have with SWML services continuing west. In terms of usefulness, it would easily be as useful as the Hitchin flyover is in improving capacity and reliability. A Woking flyover is probably the infrastructure project that would (apart from electrification schemes) bring by far the most benefit in the South East.

Ok, three questions:

1) by how much would building Woking flyover improve capacity, in terms of additional trains per hour?
2) when is that capacity required?
3) by how much building Woking flyover improve reliability?

Then you can judge whether it would bring the most benefit to the South East.

 

[A0]

Try the transport options for Crowborough to Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead to Crawley, Burgess Hill to Uckfield, Thamesmead to Barking, Windsor to Bracknell, Luton to Hitchin, Hertford to Hatfield, Andover to Winchester etc. You find a range of slow, expensive, infrequent buses and that's it in most cases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2022 ==


I think that they are implying DC third rail infill.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2022 ==


The Network Railcard is a key driver on that route of why lots of people go end to end.

BIB - those are poor examples though.

Hitchin - Luton has never had a rail link and the bus service is actually pretty good - 4 buses an hour taking about 30 mins and hourly on Sunday.

Hertford's not a significant place (despite being a County town) - the University campuses are the main reason for travel between Hatfield & Hertford and even now there are frequent buses - a combinatiom of the 341/641 and 724. The rail link between Welwyn & Hertford succumbed in the early 50s, long pre Beeching, which gives an idea as to the level of demand for travel to / from Hertford.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it's important to note that whilst some areas in the South east don't require 'leveling up' in macro-economic terms, they may still benefit from better connectivity, which in turn would benefit disadvantaged people who exist almost everywhere. Restoring Uckfield-Lewes falls into that category.

 

[JonathanH]

Restoring Uckfield-Lewes falls into that category.

A good bus service runs over that corridor. Restoring Uckfield to Lewes really doesn't benefit that many people in terms on connectivity. Crowborough, Buxted and Uckfield aren't very big places in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Wynd]

A good bus service runs over that corridor. Restoring Uckfield to Lewes really doesn't benefit that many people in terms on connectivity. Crowborough, Buxted and Uckfield aren't very big places in the grand scheme of things.

A bus service can only be classed as "good" on the patronage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A good bus service runs over that corridor. Restoring Uckfield to Lewes really doesn't benefit that many people in terms on connectivity. Crowborough, Buxted and Uckfield aren't very big places in the grand scheme of things.

What would be useful would be buses that fill gaps like that being in the journey planners and railway fares system. I know this was tried once (RailLinks) but it was a half-job and in the very early days of journey planners - I reckon it'd work now.

 

[Irascible]

There are quite a few passengers using the WoE who don't go all the way, so do they get whacked with random fare increases because of London too? that is not the levelling up we're looking for down here. Devon ( well most of it - not the north for some reason ) is trying to devolve itself, I'm, er, curious where this will go transport-wise.

I remember the areas N of London being an ass to move around until I got a car, not so bad in the other directions. Whether it's as bad as the extremities of the country these days I don't know, but the buses everywhere probably need a review as well as rail.

 

[steamybrian]

A good bus service runs over that corridor. Restoring Uckfield to Lewes really doesn't benefit that many people in terms on connectivity. Crowborough, Buxted and Uckfield aren't very big places in the grand scheme of things.

I am a strong supported of reopening Uckfield to Lewes line as Crowborough and Uckfield are rapidly growing towns. Crowborough is now a large town with a bus service which serves only a small area of the town.
Whilst the 29 (plus varations 28, 29X etc) bus Tunbridge Wells to Brighton runs every 30 minutes Mondays to Saturdays and hourly on Sundays.......... but the throughout journey time of around 1 hour 50 minutes compare with around 50 minutes when the train service operated.
As an overview I can understand that levelling up means more money being spent in the north where transport links are poor or non existent.