Diesel engines running all night

[InOban]

I understand that the MTU engines in the ScotRail HSTs must either be connected to shore power to keep the block warm, or run all night.

 

[fishwomp]

The OP's question is very valid and welcome here, thank you Kev1n and welcome to the forum.

Thanks others for your examples and reasons as to why it happens, or why it might not but would appear to.

I recall reading in Modern Railways some 15-20 years ago about 3rd rail stock consuming significantly overnight during stabling at one of the yards in Surrey, lights and hotel power.., I don't recall whether the arrival of new stock or just a new instruction to drivers change things, it was a while ago.. no idea what current (boom boom) practice is on electrified lines

 

[ac6000cw]

I remember an American railwayman telling me that in cold weather in the USA they usually keep locos ticking-over all night in case they can't start them in the morning.

Modern North American locos have automatic engine start-stop capability integrated into the computer system (and there are systems available that can be retrofitted to older models).

It monitors various temperatures, air pressure and battery state and will start the diesel engine when necessary to maintain them at normal levels - so those locos don't need to be left idling for hours on end, wasting fuel (= chucking dollar bills out of the exhaust stack!) and adding to the CO2 in the atmosphere.

(Locos with auto start-stop normally have notices by the doors etc. warning staff that it may start up at any time. They also sound warning bells for a while before the engine starts).

I happened to see a CSX GE ES44AC going through the auto-start sequence once - the video below is from when the final warning bell sounds (as far as I remember - it was 7 years ago):

(...plus a bonus shot of a nice vintage ex-B&O position-light signal at the end, for those interested)

 

[Bluejays]

This is actually quite an interesting topic i think. To the untrained eye such as myself it looks extremely wasteful, but when you actually read the reasons why it's done then it starts to make sense.

Would be nice to see extra shore supplies fitted, if there are locations where they could be utilised.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

It seems fuel was and is too cheap, so there is not enough incentive to design engines that can be turned off and on again without problems. The same on the road, many drivers leave engines idling for ten minutes while waiting for the swing bridge near me.

 

[seagull]

Interestingly some depots where electric trains are stabled overnight also leave the trains "running" as it were: in other words the lights, air-con/heating and systems all on, all night. So no noise from engines but rather wasteful of energy all the same.
I believe Central Rivers depot (near Barton-under-Needwood) where the Class 220 and 221s are serviced and stabled did install a shore supply to avoid excessive idling of engines, but when first used it caused a local overload of supply and dimmed all the lights in the neighbouring village(s), and so has lain unused ever since.

 

[Snow1964]

Interestingly some depots where electric trains are stabled overnight also leave the trains "running" as it were: in other words the lights, air-con/heating and systems all on, all night. So no noise from engines but rather wasteful of energy all the same.
I believe Central Rivers depot (near Barton-under-Needwood) where the Class 220 and 221s are serviced and stabled did install a shore supply to avoid excessive idling of engines, but when first used it caused a local overload of supply and dimmed all the lights in the neighbouring village(s), and so has lain unused ever since.

It sounds like shore supply wasn’t thought out, but if National Grid allowed it to be connected, and power drawn, then surely it’s not railways problem to sort out towns other electricity transformers.

I remember back in the late 1970s the HSTs used to be shut down and plugged in at Paddington and Kings Cross to save fuel (but was just few years after fuel crisis). Presumably diesel is now considered cheap compared to electric shore power.

 

[randyrippley]

If so they’re scraping the barrel! Not sure some sprinters idling in a deserted station overnight would be that much of a scoop?!

Easy to turn it into sensationalist junk about greenhouse gases.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I was under the impression that in large populated areas near to where trains are stabled, that engines must be shutdown for noise.

Some locations have instructions like this, even stations do such as Chiltern needing to shut down engines on their locos if staying in platforms for longer than 3 minutes due to it being such an enclosed space

 

[ac6000cw]

It seems fuel was and is too cheap, so there is not enough incentive to design engines that can be turned off and on again without problems. The same on the road, many drivers leave engines idling for ten minutes while waiting for the swing bridge near me.

Given that road vehicle IC engines (pretty much since their inception) are routinely turned off when parked, and most DMU engines are derived from truck & bus engines, I can't see an intrinsic reason why basically the same engines can't do the same when in a rail vehicle and not needed for traction or maintaining essential systems. If the rail industry can't design and maintain them to do that then in the current age IMHO they deserve all the flak they might get over the situation.

(and - speaking as a car owner/driver - drivers leaving engines running while waiting at level crossings, stationary traffic queues etc. is just laziness/thoughtlessness most of the time...do they never think about the cost of the fuel they're literally throwing away, let alone the pollution?)

 

[dk1]

I think you've all fallen for a journalist looking for a story

I did wonder.

 

[dosxuk]

If the rail industry can't design and maintain them to do that then in the current age IMHO they deserve all the flak they might get over the situation.

Are we talking about the current age though? The stock that will be in Nottingham station overnight at best is from the late 90s, with much of it early to mid 80s. It's not modern road vehicles we should be comparing this stock against, it's the stuff thats 30-40 years old.

With buses it only seems to have been in the last few years where a push to turning off engines during extended waits has begun. Only 10 years ago walking through a bus station would have had numerous busses locked up with the engines idling away waiting for their next service.

 

[LowLevel]

156 vehicles won't shut down if the auxiliary heater is isolated because the aux heater on 156s will normally fire up at 1.5°C as automatic frost protection - if it's isolated it can't. Suspect that might be why 158s won't shut down if the ACIS is open (assuming the ACIS can govern the aux heater on a 158?)

Interesting - I've worked on them for years and didn't know - there's a few with aux heaters not in the best of health so that well may be the answer, I'll have to have a look!

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Apart from the green/emissions issue, disturbance to local residents also needs to be taken into account. Our neighbours on the other side of the road are greatly exercised by the constant throbbing of the Class 66s as they sit outside the aggregates terminal from the small hours of the morning until late in the evening on some days. It has even been a factor in some people not being able to sell their houses, or at least not for the prices they would like.

 

[ac6000cw]

Are we talking about the current age though? The stock that will be in Nottingham station overnight at best is from the late 90s, with much of it early to mid 80s. It's not modern road vehicles we should be comparing this stock against, it's the stuff thats 30-40 years old.

'in the current age' is a synonym for e.g. 'the present day' or 'nowadays' etc. - the age of the rolling stock had nothing to do with my comment. Besides which, diesel engines are a mature technology - in the last 40 years I think the only major development in them has been the move to electronic control of fuel injection (driven by emissions regulations and fuel economy market pressures).

One of the reasons railways embraced internal combustion engines (starting nearly a century ago!) is because they can be shut down when not required thus not wasting fuel (money) when idle - unlike their steam predecessors.

With buses it only seems to have been in the last few years where a push to turning off engines during extended waits has begun. Only 10 years ago walking through a bus station would have had numerous busses locked up with the engines idling away waiting for their next service.

When I first started riding on buses about 50 years ago they often used to turn off their engines when waiting at a terminus for a while, particularly if it was in an enclosed bus station, so it's nothing new or difficult...

 

[High Dyke]

If there are reasons for doing it why would it be wasting money?

Like I said, it's the railway and it likes wasting money!

 

[dk1]

Like I said, it's the railway and it likes wasting money!

It’s something us who’ve always been railway never even think about. It’s just how it is.

 

[robbeech]

I understand that the MTU engines in the ScotRail HSTs must either be connected to shore power to keep the block warm, or run all night.

There’s a service penalty if the engine temperature falls below a certain point so it’s more cost effective (and minimises downtime and as such disruption) to leave them running.

It seems fuel was and is too cheap, so there is not enough incentive to design engines that can be turned off and on again without problems. The same on the road, many drivers leave engines idling for ten minutes while waiting for the swing bridge near me.

Given that road vehicle IC engines (pretty much since their inception) are routinely turned off when parked, and most DMU engines are derived from truck & bus engines, I can't see an intrinsic reason why basically the same engines can't do the same when in a rail vehicle and not needed for traction or maintaining essential systems. If the rail industry can't design and maintain them to do that then in the current age IMHO they deserve all the flak they might get over the situation.

(and - speaking as a car owner/driver - drivers leaving engines running while waiting at level crossings, stationary traffic queues etc. is just laziness/thoughtlessness most of the time...do they never think about the cost of the fuel they're literally throwing away, let alone the pollution?)

We are using engines with tens of thousands of hours running between overhauls on stock that is in excess of 30 years old. The technology is outdated and ‘tired’. Many units will have a harder time starting from cold, and a cold start is the worst time for an engine in terms of wear and tear.

I’m sure the engines in a 195 or bi mode class 800 start from cold much easier but we are where we are with the units we have.

We have had trucks that would run forever and ever and never need an ounce of work other than general servicing but you let them cool down and they would turn over for a minute before they’d start. Service centre would say “yeah, they are just like that when they get to this age / hours / miles”.

 

[Llama]

195s don't have an oil fired auxiliary heater like Sprinter units do, but they do seem to possibly have some kind of electric pre-heating system. If that is indeed what 195s have then it seems to be fully automatic with no traincrew input/override/isolation possible.

 

[Trackman]

15x units are fitted with a timer whereby once the driver's key is out the unit will shut down after so many minutes.

Sorts of have answers a question for me.
Did class 142's have the same thing or a mod?
I was once stuck at Oxford road on Christmas eve and there were some completely empty unlit dark units on P3 (I think) with the engines still running.
My next train to North Wales wasn't for an hour and I was sat opposite them.
Anyway after about 15 minutes one of them shut down automatically, I'm sure it's was the Pacer.

 

[Llama]

Yeah 142s would shut down after 15 minutes with no key in.

 

[43096]

There’s a service penalty if the engine temperature falls below a certain point so it’s more cost effective (and minimises downtime and as such disruption) to leave them running.

It’s a 100 hour penalty on the MDEC engine management system for a “cold start”.

 

[QueensCurve]

I remember an American railwayman telling me that in cold weather in the USA they usually keep locos ticking-over all night in case they can't start them in the morning.

I suspect this was the practice at Dundee Diesel Depot in the 1980s when Class 40s could be heard whistling away at all hours.

 

[dk1]

Same with first gen DMUs. Spares would often be left idling most of the day just incase. Especially so in winter.

 

[HSTEd]

True, the Lac Megantic disaster is a reminder of ignoring the above .

More a reminder of the dangers of relying on a system that requires engines to stay running indefinitely to avoid disaster.

Unless the diesel engine system in the locomotive is a safety rated system then it should not be depended upon to maintain safety - the safety case should take no credit.

 

[Stigy]

At my TOC it’s in our appendix to the Rulebook to shut engines down if stopped for more than 5 minutes. Admittedly that’s not really feasible, but certainly when somewhere for 20/30 minutes or when stabling units, I shut the engines down.

15x/16x units shut themselves down after 15 mins without a key in, but equally the driver can shut them down themselves. Not many drivers at my TOC seem to shut engines down unless berthing the units somewhere in reality. I do, because they’re noisy and smelly and it generally makes sense. I think the argument is that they have issues restarting them after shutting them down. I’ve never had this issue, but if they don’t restart, it’s one of those things, I’ll just contact the relevant people to report it.

 

[vikingdriver]

At my TOC it’s in our appendix to the Rulebook to shut engines down if stopped for more than 5 minutes. Admittedly that’s not really feasible, but certainly when somewhere for 20/30 minutes or when stabling units, I shut the engines down.

15x/16x units shut themselves down after 15 mins without a key in, but equally the driver can shut them down themselves. Not many drivers at my TOC seem to shut engines down unless berthing the units somewhere in reality. I do, because they’re noisy and smelly and it generally makes sense. I think the argument is that they have issues restarting them after shutting them down. I’ve never had this issue, but if they don’t restart, it’s one of those things, I’ll just contact the relevant people to report it.

On our 158s letting them shut down themselves is about not damaging the air conditioning. Presumably yours work the same.

 

[Stigy]

On our 158s letting them shut down themselves is about not damaging the air conditioning. Presumably yours work the same.

It is, but only “force stopping” them by holding the engine stop button in. If we press it once, they shut down in a few minutes, but not as many as 15

 

[tiptoptaff]

At my TOC it’s in our appendix to the Rulebook to shut engines down if stopped for more than 5 minutes. Admittedly that’s not really feasible, but certainly when somewhere for 20/30 minutes or when stabling units, I shut the engines down.

15x/16x units shut themselves down after 15 mins without a key in, but equally the driver can shut them down themselves. Not many drivers at my TOC seem to shut engines down unless berthing the units somewhere in reality. I do, because they’re noisy and smelly and it generally makes sense. I think the argument is that they have issues restarting them after shutting them down. I’ve never had this issue, but if they don’t restart, it’s one of those things, I’ll just contact the relevant people to report it.

A lot of us, especially at BTM, leave Turbos to run when it says IMM because of how quickly the giant seive that is an air system loses it, and how much slower they build air than 158s. Easier to let it run for 10/15 mins of the 25its supposed to be shut down as the air will be 4or5 bar higher!

That said, we've got instructions to shut them down at certain locations, unless its cold or we depart again within 10minutes.

 

[kevjs]

If so they’re scraping the barrel! Not sure some sprinters idling in a deserted station overnight would be that much of a scoop?!

It's not really hard to see why someone would be able to make a story out of it (hey, our local rag had live updates from the opening of Poundland as it's main story yesterday).

We're a city that abandoned plans for a Clean Air Zone as the measures being taken by the city council already reduced pollution enough to avoid it. For example all buses in the city centre need to have Euro VI or better engines, the main bus operator made it's last diesel bus purchase three years ago and has replaced the bulk of it's fleet with CNG (natural gas) buses, and is currently bidding for funding to replace all it's single decker diesel buses with electric (leaving only a few diesel double decker's). The City Council has replaced much of it's own fleet of vehicles with EVs (including the first electric bin lorries outside of Monaco). Through motor traffic has been removed from parts of the city centre (Broadmarsh) to improve the public realm and also reduce pollution, with new bus priority measures being installed city wide and loads of active travel infrastructure in the vicinity of the train station, and extensions of the district heating system. At the same time a load of new housing is being built right next to the station (overlooking platform 7). Yet at the very same time East Midlands Railway are replacing sprinters with ~20 year old diesel trains that used to be used here before going elsewhere, and the mainline trains are going to replaced by ones which operate on diesel power in the city. All that coupled with the area around the Rail Station having one of the highest levels of PM (particulate matter pollution - primarily from diesel engined vehicles) in the city (London Road and the ring road near the QMC Hospital being the only places consistently worse) and the on again / off again Midland Mainline / Nottingham electrification it's not exactly hard to see a load of idling diesel trains in an up and coming residential area and pollution hotspot at the heart of the city could be turned into a story quiet easily!