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Diesel engines running all night

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lincolnshire

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Take a look at Sheffield Midland station it usually has a lot more units running all night long in the platforms and sidings etc.
On the M1 they have a speed limit for the traffic of 50 MPH due to pollution from exhaust.s of traffic, they should go down to the station area and check the levels of pollution down there.
 
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Taunton

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60 years ago the WR hydraulics had pre-heaters on the engines, must have been automatic because a shut-down and unattended Warship in the west end bay at Taunton could be heard occasionally clicking from inside the engine room, which apparently was the pre-heater coming on and off. Must have been battery powered.

DMUs of the era not the same, those were left engine running. Apparently having flat batteries when they came to start was too common an experience. The notable thing here was that the engines were exactly the same as those in the buses in the onetime-railway associated bus garage in the town, which shut down and restarted without issue. It seemed that BR had gone for absolutely the cheapest and smallest batteries.
 

Deepgreen

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Whatever excuses are offered for constant or prolonged engine running, it points the way to electrification surely alleviating so much waste - electric trains don't need to be left running for hours or even minutes at a time and can move off at a moment's notice, for example during shunting where an individual unit's movements may involve long periods stationary, and doesn't require the engines to be running all that time. That's not to say they don't draw any current when stabled or stationary, but it's at least without local pollution. It's why electric cars have such potential for energy and pollution saving - they don't run when they don't need to. It's staggering how many drivers have their engines running as some sort of security blanket when they are waiting for ages - a depressingly common sight is someone getting into their car, starting the engine and then making a ten minute phone call before leaving!
 

Pigeon

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DMUs of the era not the same, those were left engine running. Apparently having flat batteries when they came to start was too common an experience. The notable thing here was that the engines were exactly the same as those in the buses in the onetime-railway associated bus garage in the town, which shut down and restarted without issue. It seemed that BR had gone for absolutely the cheapest and smallest batteries.

I'm fairly sure they actually had a ruddy great rack of batteries which you'd have a tough time finding room for in a bus. But BR seemed to have a problem generally with lead-acid batteries on stock. (See also the gradual dimming of Mk 1 carriage lights during prolonged stops.) I don't know if it was lack of maintenance, unrealistic replacement schedules, or just the vibration rogering the plates - I suspect it was mostly the vibration - but they all seemed to rapidly get to the state where they might hold five minutes' worth of charge if you were lucky and then stay like that for years.
 

PG

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It's staggering how many drivers have their engines running as some sort of security blanket when they are waiting for ages - a depressingly common sight is someone getting into their car, starting the engine and then making a ten minute phone call before leaving!
Sadly it's likely that these same people, who fail to see how their own actions are contributing to pollution, will be the ones clamouring for action to be taken against whatever story the media is peddling e.g. trains running before departure ignoring the fact that they need to in order to build up air pressure...
 

alangla

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e.g. trains running before departure ignoring the fact that they need to in order to build up air pressure...
That’s only because they’re fitted with engine driven compressors. Did Alstom not fit electric compressors to their diesel units (175s at least)? That would allow it to be powered off a shore supply or battery if required and also means the unit doesn’t sit at max rpm shortly after starting as it tries to build up air.

There are technical solutions to all these problems, but opportunities keep being missed. Take the short HST sets used by ScotRail and GWR. Do they really need 2 engines running continuously or would they be perfectly able to keep to time with one engine being stopped and started on the move (and maybe spun on compressed air when the fuel is off). Same with 3 car multi units: the technology to stop unnecessary engines on 185s and cross feed has existed for years, surely it’s worth retrofitting that to other units like the 170s that have a reasonable future?
 
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Bluejays

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That’s only because they’re fitted with engine driven compressors. Did Alstom not fit electric compressors to their diesel units (175s at least)? That would allow it to be powered off a shore supply or battery if required and also means the unit doesn’t sit at max rpm shortly after starting as it tries to build up air.

There are technical solutions to all these problems, but opportunities keep being missed. Take the short HST sets used by ScotRail and GWR. Do they really need 2 engines running continuously or would they be perfectly able to keep to time with one engine being stopped and started on the move (and maybe spun on compressed air when the fuel is off). Same with 3 car multi units: the technology to stop unnecessary engines on 185s and cross feed has existed for years, surely it’s worth retrofitting that to other units like the 170s that have a reasonable future?
Good points. I think there needs to be a look at the areas in which waste occurs, then a genuine look taken at if it cam be improved.

The air system on turbos was mentioned further upthread, I can second the fact that it's like a sieve. Rarely I work one without reporting a hissing sound from somewhere it shouldn't be coming from. The perfect example of something that needs to be looked at and properly sorted ir possible
 

Annetts key

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Are we straying into issues with older stock where it is not being maintained properly? And into design issues?

Obviously, where possible, everything that is practical and is reasonable should be done to avoid running engines unnecessarily. The first step is for the maintenance (including fixing of faults) to be performed to a good standard, and not just the bare minimum.

Then good practice needs to be spread, and at the same time poor habits questioned. In some cases, it’s ‘because we’ve always done it that way’ and there may have been good reasons in the past. But are these reasons still valid now? If the questions are not asked, you won’t get the answers.

Where there is still a good reason for running engines while a train is stabled / stopped for any significant amount of time, is there any technical improvements (and cost will come in here) that could be carried out? In other words, can the running time be reduced by use of automation or other methods.

At some former BR loco diesel depots, on cold winter days/nights, a member of staff would walk around and in turn, start up and run each loco/DMU for a short time, then shut them down. I don’t know the details, but this crude cycling kept the engines warm enough to prevent problems from the cold, but it saved having to run them continuously. It saved money in terms of less fuel used. But of course, you did have to pay for that member of staff to be on duty.

Back to the current day, and a different example. Every day, diesel engines are run purely to provide lighting and heating while train(s)/vehicle(s) are stationary for a significant time. This is because the trains/vehicles are occupied by staff and they require the facilities. This is not only trains, but also some road vehicles. How much better it would be if ALL the railway companies (and their contractors) spent some time and effort investigating more energy efficient alternatives and improvements. Such as shore supplies. And for the companies to work with the staff, rather than just ‘putting plans on paper’. As whatever ideas are suggested have to be practical and easy to use.

I’m sure that if the railways did put the effort in, substantial improvements could be made, which would both save money on the fuel bills and reduce the amount of emissions.

Where there are bi-mode or tri-mode trains that spend a significant amount of time in stations, or sidings, away from OHL or third rail territory, if the long term plan is to electrify the lines in these areas in the future, serious consideration should be given to providing the electrification infrastructure in these locations ahead of the main scheme. Then when a train arrives at the station/siding, it can switch to electric power and shut down all of the diesel engines.
 

Red Devil

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When I did nights I used to shut them down,mainly because I wanted to have a kip and not be woken by the sound of engines running!
Set my alarm half an hour before 1st move which was 03.30 then go and start them up as needed so they're nice and warm for the lads and lasses.
The OP may have thought these were running all night at Notts when in actual fact it was the start of another working day
 

riceuten

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Have a gander at this, OP

This is a timetable for trains at the station in the week, from 0000 to 0500


Quite a few trains, passenger and freight, arriving and departing through the night.
 

Skymonster

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EMR 222s take things to the opposite extreme whereby some of the vehicle engines are shut down at terminal stations (St Pancras, Sheffield, Nottingham), plunging the passenger accommodation into gloom as most of the lights then go off too. This can be happening even when passengers are on board or boarding prior to departure, and at St Pancras in particular this makes it difficult to read papers, etc. At the very least, the Meridian engines should be fired up to the extent where full lighting can be provided whenever passengers are allowed on board.
 
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lachlan

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Take a look at Sheffield Midland station it usually has a lot more units running all night long in the platforms and sidings etc.
On the M1 they have a speed limit for the traffic of 50 MPH due to pollution from exhaust.s of traffic, they should go down to the station area and check the levels of pollution down there.
Pollution from the railway doesn't excuse pollution from drivers.
 

Hairy Bear

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5e EMR 222s take things to the opposite extreme whereby some of the vehicle engines are **** down at terminal stations (St Pancras, Sheffield, Nottingham), plunging the passenger accommodation into gloom as most of the lists then go off too. This can be happening even when passengers are on board or boarding prior to departure, and at St Pancras in particular this makes it difficult to read papers, etc. At the very list, the Meridian engines should be fired up to the extent where full lighting can be provided whenever passengers are allowed on board.
Company policy dictates we start the engines 3 mins prior to departure, so enjoy looking through the blown double glazed window until you can read your paper !!.
 

dk1

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Nice and quiet in Norwich station today with pantagraphs up on all the Stadlers.
Only ruined by those dirty polluting EMR relics on weekdays. They don’t seem to run Sundays so all good air then ;)
 

PG

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EMR 222s take things to the opposite extreme whereby some of the vehicle engines are shut down at terminal stations (St Pancras, Sheffield, Nottingham), plunging the passenger accommodation into gloom as most of the lights then go off too. This can be happening even when passengers are on board or boarding prior to departure, and at St Pancras in particular this makes it difficult to read papers, etc. At the very least, the Meridian engines should be fired up to the extent where full lighting can be provided whenever passengers are allowed on board.
Company policy dictates we start the engines 3 mins prior to departure, so enjoy looking through the blown double glazed window until you can read your paper !!.
Be careful what you wish for otherwise you may get a version of the Paddington scrum with trains announced for boarding at T -5 minutes!
 

Skymonster

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Be careful what you wish for otherwise you may get a version of the Paddington scrum with trains announced for boarding at T -5 minutes!
That’s a trick already familiar to and frequently practiced by the EMR St Pancras gate line staff.
 

Taunton

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Be careful what you wish for otherwise you may get a version of the Paddington scrum with trains announced for boarding at T -5 minutes!
Or even better, the Marylebone non-scrum departure, late evening, on time of course for DfT statistics, which has never been put on the board yet and so goes with nobody in it ...
 

Taunton

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Out of interest which departure is this?
It was a little while ago at Marylebone, and it happened more than once. Late evening because it seemed the dispatch staff had been so minimised that they couldn't keep up with some sequential departures, especially where there were two from the same platform with rules that the second couldn't be announced until the front one had left. Then there was a distraction, the second train got the green light, it was time, they went.
 

lincolnshire

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I never said it did. The post I replied to implied the 50 mph speed limit was unjust due to pollution created by the railway.
What I was meaning was that on the M1 Tinsley viaduct its a 50 MPH speed limit for pollution which is higher up in the air than Sheffield Midland station with is lower down and in the early hours of the morning the traffic density on the M1 is much lower as against all the units stored and been fuelled and shunted in the platforms in the station which all seem to be running at this time of year over night. The only early hours service is a TPE service to Manchester, the rest of the passenger services don,t start till later in a morning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This is actually quite an interesting topic i think. To the untrained eye such as myself it looks extremely wasteful, but when you actually read the reasons why it's done then it starts to make sense.

Would be nice to see extra shore supplies fitted, if there are locations where they could be utilised.
Shore supplies are installed at Hull Station sidings and Scarborough Station platform for TPE 185 not sure if they are used or not? If they are they are both fed from large diesel generators as the electric supply is not robust enough at each location so somewhat defeating the object pollution wise.
 
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robbeech

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Take a look at Sheffield Midland station it usually has a lot more units running all night long in the platforms and sidings etc.
On the M1 they have a speed limit for the traffic of 50 MPH due to pollution from exhaust.s of traffic, they should go down to the station area and check the levels of pollution down there.
It’s often 60 but sometimes (more frequently recently) 50.
My car won’t automatically use the top gear at 60 and won’t use the top 2 at 50 so the rpm is generally higher meaning it’s not really saving much in terms of environment.
 

QSK19

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Only ruined by those dirty polluting EMR relics on weekdays. They don’t seem to run Sundays so all good air then ;)
Well, the users of Norwich station are going to get them for many a year yet. According to a user in another forum, an internal EMR staff fleet update has confirmed that the 158s are staying put. And, in any case, I can’t see EMR being given any bi-mode or hybrid sort of stock for their regional services any time soon.

Ah, nothing beats arriving to the lovely smell of diesel fumes ;)
 

dk1

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Well, the users of Norwich station are going to get them for many a year yet. According to a user in another forum, an internal EMR staff fleet update has confirmed that the 158s are staying put. And, in any case, I can’t see EMR being given any bi-mode or hybrid sort of stock for their regional services any time soon.

Ah, nothing beats arriving to the lovely smell of diesel fumes ;)
Only beaten by the first gen DMUs that used to often fill the station with smog especially on cold days. On the rare occasion they had been shut down it was a white out 8-)
 

RuddA

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Only beaten by the first gen DMUs that used to often fill the station with smog especially on cold days. On the rare occasion they had been shut down it was a white out 8-)
That takes me back.

Surprised you haven't tried to make platform 6 dedicated to EMR
 

merry

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True, the Lac Megantic disaster is a reminder of ignoring the above .
On a point of pedantry (I read the full report a while back), at Lac Megantic the lead loco was left running to maintain air pressure when the trainman left it on the line at end of his shift (where it was parked due to the yard, at the top of a hill, being full!).
Unfortunately, loco maintenance was so bad (engine block cracked & repaired using resin, significantly leaking oil into the cylinders!) that the loco eventually caught fire & was shut down by the fire service/shunter. It was only then a mattter of time until the air all leaked out of reservoirs, and even then the main reason it inevitably derailed in the town was the appalling quality of track maintenance (I believe only 1 in every 10 or 20 ties [=sleepers] were functional, so track was wide to gauge on the curve).
A catalogue of regulatory and operational failings for sure, but not because the loco was originally left unpowered on the running line...
 
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