Crossrail - Construction updates and progress towards opening (now expected 24 May 2022)

[Acton1991]

Exactly. Running a few services to get a share of the revenue isn't part of the thinking in the new order.

Didcot stoppers will surely go.

 

[43102EMR]

Didcot stoppers will surely go.

I highly doubt it, as many people in the Thames Valley will miss out on a local service to London. That being said, wouldn’t be surprised if GWR withdrew stops from Hayes, Ealing and West Drayton as a result…

 

[JamesT]

Didcot stoppers will surely go.

So they’ll turn into Reading-Didcot shuttles? What happens when Oxford eventually gets its wires? (As the expectation was that the Didcot stoppers would return to being Oxford stoppers as they used to be)

 

[reddragon]

Didcot stoppers will surely go.

Errr nope!

These are 12 car units in the peak and packed! Off peak are 8 cars and very busy. Where exactly do you expect the passengers to go?

GWR will not want to suffer major passenger losses from Cholsey, Goring, Pangbourne & Tilehurst who travel through to Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, Ealing and London you know!

They cannot cut intermediate stops of they catch up with purple trains either and at peaks already run fast on the mains from Twyford.

 

[hwl]

I highly doubt it, as many people in the Thames Valley will miss out on a local service to London. That being said, wouldn’t be surprised if GWR withdrew stops from Hayes, Ealing and West Drayton as a result…

Hayes & H., Ealing and West Drayton - Those stops are somewhat there for both historical and revenue grab reasons.
The TflRail/Crossrail all/most stops journey times west of Paddington will come down with the new timetable and most station service frequencies go up.

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Errr nope!

These are 12 car units in the peak and packed! Off peak are 8 cars and very busy. Where exactly do you expect the passengers to go?

GWR will not want to suffer major passenger losses from Cholsey, Goring, Pangbourne & Tilehurst who travel through to Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, Ealing and London you know!

They cannot cut intermediate stops of they catch up with purple trains either and at peaks already run fast on the mains from Twyford.

Some of the passengers will transfer to Crossrail services when they are operating at higher service levels and I'd expect them to run fast on the mains from Twyford off-peak too.

 

[reddragon]

Some of the passengers will transfer to Crossrail services when they are operating at higher service levels and I'd expect them to run fast on the mains from Twyford off-peak too.

Maybe in time

 

[Acton1991]

Errr nope!

These are 12 car units in the peak and packed! Off peak are 8 cars and very busy. Where exactly do you expect the passengers to go?

GWR will not want to suffer major passenger losses from Cholsey, Goring, Pangbourne & Tilehurst who travel through to Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, Ealing and London you know!

They cannot cut intermediate stops of they catch up with purple trains either and at peaks already run fast on the mains from Twyford.

What is wrong with these passengers changing trains? I don't understand why it's such an issue for them not to just change at Reading onto a fast non-stop service to Paddington.

 

[reddragon]

What is wrong with these passengers changing trains? I don't understand why it's such an issue for them not to just change at Reading onto a fast non-stop service to Paddington.

OK lets explain if for you then!

You are on a comfortable class 387, with a seat, your laptop on the table and a cup of tea / coffee beside you arriving at Reading and your train arrives in London when you need it. You arrive earlier at the station to ensure a parking space and to give extra time for delays. Why get off?

Why would you pack up all that and cross over the mountainous bridge to fight over a fast train seat that's less comfortable and will save you a matter of a few minutes?

How would Reading cope if a packed 8 car unit emptied out for all to aim for the fasts? They wouldn't!

If you are going to Maidenhead, the most common peak destination or Slough etc more popular off peak with bags / kids / mobility issues why get off a comfy train & board a tube train with neck cranking transverse seats?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I am not saying service patterns / stops will not change but passenger habits / preference will not.

 

[Bald Rick]

OK lets explain if for you then!

You are on a comfortable class 387, with a seat, your laptop on the table and a cup of tea / coffee beside you arriving at Reading and your train arrives in London when you need it. You arrive earlier at the station to ensure a parking space and to give extra time for delays. Why get off?

Why would you pack up all that and cross over the mountainous bridge to fight over a fast train seat that's less comfortable and will save you a matter of a few minutes?

How would Reading cope if a packed 8 car unit emptied out for all to aim for the fasts? They wouldn't!

If you are going to Maidenhead, the most common peak destination or Slough etc more popular off peak with bags / kids / mobility issues why get off a comfy train & board a tube train with neck cranking transverse seats?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I am not saying service patterns / stops will not change but passenger habits / preference will not.

In the peak, when the trains are busy (or used to be, they’re not now) all the Didcot starters run Main line from Dolphin Jn or further west though (And don’t stop at Hayes or Ealing B) There’s no suggestion this won’t continue.

Off peak, when the trains are much less busy, it is less of an issue. However if there is space for them on the Main Lines in the peak, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that there is off peak as well. Which would leave the Relief lines clear east of Airport Jn for EL trains and freight.

 

[Horizon22]

We’ll see.

It's likely; GWR have heavily resisted requests from TfL to run only a Didcot - Reading shuttle. They are also quite busy trains in the peak - even now.

I appreciate it isn't "the new way of doing things", but it does significantly impact a number of passengers adversely at places like Maidenhead & Twyford. Perhaps the inner stops might change, but its still up for discussion.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well the current plan is for the Didcot stoppers to remain on the reliefs in the off peak and I think that's going to create a reliability issue

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2022 ==

I highly doubt it, as many people in the Thames Valley will miss out on a local service to London. That being said, wouldn’t be surprised if GWR withdrew stops from Hayes, Ealing and West Drayton as a result…

I don't think they will withdraw stopping at Hayes and Ealing Broadway as it would create significant interchange penalties for passengers.

Maybe when western rail access to Heathrow is completed.

 

[FOH]

It sounds a bit like what happened with the timetable recast on our line. IIRC correctly Caterham/Tat Cnr joiners were fast from East Croydon peak, stoppers off-peak. Southern changed this to be fast off-peak too to create a uniform timetable all day.

 

[reddragon]

In the peak, when the trains are busy (or used to be, they’re not now) all the Didcot starters run Main line from Dolphin Jn or further west though (And don’t stop at Hayes or Ealing B) There’s no suggestion this won’t continue.

Off peak, when the trains are much less busy, it is less of an issue. However if there is space for them on the Main Lines in the peak, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that there is off peak as well. Which would leave the Relief lines clear east of Airport Jn for EL trains and freight.

That would probably be overall the best end solution, maybe even picking up the Slough stop from the Oxford services too.

 

[JonathanH]

That would probably be overall the best end solution, maybe even picking up the Slough stop from the Oxford services too.

That isn't ideal as that would be extra paths taken up for the stop and then the crossing move. I guess one idea would be to see if the crossover could be made at Dolphin Junction to allow the Slough stop on the relief line rather than Slough West or the slow crossover at Maidenhead.

 

[JN114]

I guess one idea would be to see if the crossover could be made at Dolphin Junction to allow the Slough stop on the relief line rather than Slough West or the slow crossover at Maidenhead.

As a point of pedantry - Dolphin, Slough West and Maidenhead East are all 40mph, with Flashing Aspects on approach; none of the three crossing points are any slower than the others.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2022 ==


*** double post edit ***

Following the lineside fire Monday morning, the only access to/from the Crossrail depot is via either the Down Relief, Carriage Line and “Back Road”; or via the E&C flyover. As those trains from the COS are almost certainly going to the depot, unscheduled - they just get tipped out onto the Down Relief as and when the signaller sees fit.

Ordinarily such moves wouldn’t interfere with the normal running on the reliefs as there is a conflict-free route from the COS to depot lines 1 and 2.

Any future through running will be suitably pathed to not cause the undue delay members here may have experienced in the past few days.

There’s plenty of capacity on the reliefs for all of Crossrail, GWR and freight operators’ aspirations; assuming of course they aren’t aspiring for more services than were agreed when it was all specified.

 

[JonathanH]

As a point of pedantry - Dolphin, Slough West and Maidenhead East are all 40mph, with Flashing Aspects on approach; none of the three crossing points are any slower than the others.

Ah right, thanks, I guess the difference with Slough West is that a train having called at Slough is already going slowly at that point. None are ideal clearly.

Following the lineside fire Monday morning, the only access to/from the Crossrail depot is via either the Down Relief, Carriage Line and “Back Road”; or via the E&C flyover. As those trains from the COS are almost certainly going to the depot, unscheduled - they just get tipped out onto the Down Relief as and when the signaller sees fit.

Ah, so that explains why so many units have gone into the depot via signal berth 6083 rather than the usual 0140 / 0142 routes. How long before restoration of the usual routes?

 

[JN114]

Ah, so that explains why so many units have gone into the depot via signal berth 6083 rather than the usual 0140 / 0142 routes. How long before restoration of the usual routes?

Not 100% sure - Perhaps a few days, there was a lot of cabling to replace; some of it fibre optic that require whole cable replacing not just splicing out the damaged section.

We should leave it there really as it’s a fair way off topic.

April/May was given as the sensible middle ground between opening ASAP and pushing back Bond Street / Through running; and late June which would fast track those next phases and align them much closer with the COS opening to the public.

I suspect it’ll be a soft opening, with pomp and fanfare a few weeks later.

 

[Horizon22]

Ah right, thanks, I guess the difference with Slough West is that a train having called at Slough is already going slowly at that point. None are ideal clearly.


Ah, so that explains why so many units have gone into the depot via signal berth 6083 rather than the usual 0140 / 0142 routes. How long before restoration of the usual routes?

Yes they've had to cross the entire throat and have gone on the E&C line. This has evidently meant delays finding a suitable slot weaving within all the regular traffic. Hasn't been very reliable the Chadwell Heath - Old Oak trains last few days.

 

[reddragon]

Crossrail to open before Bond Street

Bond Street: The story behind Crossrail's problem station | New Civil Engineer

At a London Transport Committee meeting this week, Transport for London (TfL) commissioner Andy Byford said he didn't "want to hold up line opening for

www.newcivilengineer.com

Despite months of reassurances that Bond Street station is "catching up fast" with the rest of the Crossrail project, it has now officially been confirmed that the problem-hit station will not open with the rest of the Elizabeth line.

 

[hwl]

Crossrail to open before Bond Street

Bond Street: The story behind Crossrail's problem station | New Civil Engineer

At a London Transport Committee meeting this week, Transport for London (TfL) commissioner Andy Byford said he didn't "want to hold up line opening for

www.newcivilengineer.com

NCE only 4 days after the Guardian and Standard on this occasion.

 

[Taunton]

there will still be services on the reliefs in 2023 the didcot stoppers and freight

One does wonder how this is going to work on the GWML. Two pairs of tracks, paired by use (always more difficult for crossing movements) with six different speed bands of trains.

- 125mph expresses
- 110mph emus running fast intermediate services (never part of the original plan)
- 100mph Heathrow Express

- GW outer suburban semi-fast services
- Crossrail, all/most stations stopping
- Heavy freight (probably the greatest tonnage of any line into London). Stone trains, Freightliners, etc

In particular there are eastbound heavy stone trains, slowing to stop at Acton Yard, being followed all the way from Reading by Crossrail, who to interleave as planned at Paddington have to present there at better than to-the-minute accuracy.

 

[JonathanH]

One does wonder how this is going to work on the GWML. Two pairs of tracks, paired by use (always more difficult for crossing movements) with six different speed bands of trains.

Won't it just work the same way as it does at the moment? If all the relief line movements in the Paddington area run into the tunnel, the first conflict is with trains at Acton for which a dive under was put in. The only extra services relative to today might be an extra pair of Crossrail trains to Heathrow.

In particular there are eastbound heavy stone trains, slowing to stop at Acton Yard, being followed all the way from Reading by Crossrail, who to interleave as planned at Paddington have to present there at better than to-the-minute accuracy.

Crossrail only run 2tph (4tph peak) to Reading and that doesn't appear to change with the start of through running. How much do the stone trains delay the existing TfL Rail service?

 

[snowball]

NCE only 4 days after the Guardian and Standard on this occasion.

They have the advantage of being daily.

 

[Horizon22]

One does wonder how this is going to work on the GWML. Two pairs of tracks, paired by use (always more difficult for crossing movements) with six different speed bands of trains.

- 125mph expresses
- 110mph emus running fast intermediate services (never part of the original plan)
- 100mph Heathrow Express

- GW outer suburban semi-fast services
- Crossrail, all/most stations stopping
- Heavy freight (probably the greatest tonnage of any line into London). Stone trains, Freightliners, etc

In particular there are eastbound heavy stone trains, slowing to stop at Acton Yard, being followed all the way from Reading by Crossrail, who to interleave as planned at Paddington have to present there at better than to-the-minute accuracy.

Complete timetable rewrite will be required. But Heathrow Express clear the path before the next fast IET service. Whether it is a productive use of a path is a different question. I'd say 3tph on HeX is more than adequate and the future of HeX will be interesting to see once the Elizabeth line is full operational.

There's currently 8tph on the Up/Down Relief off-peak, and a number of freight slots. It will certainly be more intensive but manageable.

 

[matt_world2004]

Won't it just work the same way as it does at the moment? If all the relief line movements in the Paddington area run into the tunnel, the first conflict is with trains at Acton for which a dive under was put in. The only extra services relative to today might be an extra pair of Crossrail trains to Heathrow.

Isn't the first conflict westbourne park with the Didcot stoppers in the relief lines.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't the first conflict westbourne park with the Didcot stoppers in the relief lines.

not after the recast.

 

[Taunton]

But Heathrow Express clear the path before the next fast IET service.

That's the Down direction, which is the easier one because you are not meshing a series of services from disparate starting points.

 

[JN114]

Complete timetable rewrite will be required. But Heathrow Express clear the path before the next fast IET service. Whether it is a productive use of a path is a different question. I'd say 3tph on HeX is more than adequate and the future of HeX will be interesting to see once the Elizabeth line is full operational.

I don’t see it needing a complete rewrite, unless Crossrail are (again) flexing up their aspirations from the service spec that was agreed years ago.

Crossrail are already in legal hot water with the other GWML operators (jointly) over service changes they’ve made behind the scenes that have adversely impacted/complicated things for the other operators; so I’d be concerned on NR/DfT impartiality if once again they’re being disruptive beyond what’s already agreed with the other operators.

The Dec 19 timetable on the GW/HEx/Freight side was supposed to be passively ready for Crossrail through running (at least that’s how it was sold to us in control), and the enhancements to service frequencies on the Crossrail services to be achieved purely by rejigging their own paths on the reliefs.

HEx will be 4tph until at least Autumn 2028 - as that is what they’ve committed to and to all intents and purposes already paid for.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t see it needing a complete rewrite, unless Crossrail are (again) flexing up their aspirations from the service spec that was agreed years ago.

It needs two rewrites.

One to tie in the GWML reliefs to the core (and then to the GEML E lines).

The second to provide for the additional Heathrow services, which can only be delivered through tightening up the running times on the whole system to release more resources. This is done by taking advantage of the sharper sectional running times available with the 345s*, and autoreverse, etc.

*You wouldn’t want to tighten up running times etc right from the off - you want to be sure the linked up timetable works first, and using the old running times provides some performance margin whilst everything beds in.

 

[swt_passenger]

One does wonder how this is going to work on the GWML. Two pairs of tracks, paired by use (always more difficult for crossing movements) with six different speed bands of trains.

- 125mph expresses
- 110mph emus running fast intermediate services (never part of the original plan)
- 100mph Heathrow Express

Aren’t HEx also using 110 mph 387s now?