How important is OOC to HS2?

[Bletchleyite]

Is Hyde park really a major traffic generator?

I would argue its the opposite, its a void in the middle of London.

It's a popular place to visit, but I'd think mostly by Londoners. I would imagine the number of people heading directly there off each 80x in Paddington to be single figures, possibly a very round single figure (0).

 

[Horizon22]

Is Hyde park really a major traffic generator?

I would argue its the opposite, its a void in the middle of London.

Interresting to describe parks as "voids" - its a void with a lot of people in the summer or any given event! That being said Penzance and Plymouth services were very well loaded all the way until October / November long past the summer peak or even the should peaks when the couples without families go.

London is so big and diverse people can be going to a whole host of places - most of them are getting on the Tube somewhere when arriving at a London terminal. OOC will certainly be a new interchange that people may elect to use in the future depending on their destination.

 

[quantinghome]

Presumably it's going to be renamed from Old Oak Common. Given the nearby canal, how about London Grand Union Station?

 

[AM9]

So you are happy to extend journey times to the south west? Even a 5 minute journey extension is an extension. Would passengers to the north west or north east tolerate such an extension? Oh no, of course not. But they are getting vastly speeded up services, whilst poor old Cornwall still has the same journey times to London it had in HST days. No wonder levelling up is needed, I'm just not convinced the Government are looking at levelling up the right areas of the country!

Whilst I agree that Cornwall doesn't seem to be in the government's sights for vote winning promises, you should be careful of what you wish for. Although misguided impressions of EV ranges are at play here, there will be increased rail travel to Cornwall for holiday purposes, and ignoring HS2*, Crossrail will have a big impact of that decision.
Those travelling from outside Central London, (i.e. almost everybody) will benefit considerably:
from East Anglia, passengers will change at Stratford or Liverpool St.
from the East Midlands, passengers will change at Farringdon
from Kent and Sussex, passengers will change at Farringdon - maybe changing at London Bridge on the way
Currently, all of those are forced to use the north side of the Circle Line, so a qick flip over to Crossrail at OOC will be a lot easier. The LU connection is frequently heavily loaded, with stops at Baker St Junction and trains running on yellows (figuratively speaking).
I might ask, when is the Crossrail/GW part of the station likely to open, will it be before HS2 is open?

* Slightly off topic

 

[quantinghome]

I might ask, when is the Crossrail/GW part of the station likely to open, will it be before HS2 is open?

c. 2027 if this is anything to go by:
https://www.constructionenquirer.co...-alliance-plan-for-200m-old-oak-common-works/

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting question is to what extent will people switch to HS2 when it opens to OOC only and will that be sustained or a "I'm going to go on HS2 because it's new and shiny" but quickly reverting to classic services to Euston in the meantime.

 

[C96]

Could we see an increase in people using GWR from OOC just to get to Paddington faster to then join a crossrail service?

 

[HSTEd]

Could we see an increase in people using GWR from OOC just to get to Paddington faster to then join a crossrail service?

I doubt the extra change would be worth, but maybe some people might try it, although theres a hell of a walk at Paddington isn't there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could we see an increase in people using GWR from OOC just to get to Paddington faster to then join a crossrail service?

I doubt it because most people don't actually want to go to Paddington.

 

[coppercapped]

Paddington is in the sticks, Euston is more usefully located for continuing on foot/by bicycle. But I don't doubt OOC will be well used.

FFS, change the record.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2022 ==

I doubt it because most people don't actually want to go to Paddington.

And most people don't want to go to 'Euston', they go through it to get somewhere else.

The same is true of practically all railway stations - they mark a point in a journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd be interested to see the proportion of onward travel from *any* of the terminii. How many people coming in to Euston or St P/KX just walk out & don't get on the tube?

There's not exactly many terminii ideally placed for the Docklands, nor the west end business areas. Paddington's not as good as CharingX for hte latter, but it's a straight shot on the Bakerloo.

all in here, albeit a decade old. Euston has 20% walkers, Paddington 12%.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/central-london-rail-termini-report.pdf

edit: I see I was beaten to it by @stuu

Could we see an increase in people using GWR from OOC just to get to Paddington faster to then join a crossrail service?

I doubt it. The Elizabeth line Will be quicker.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could we see an increase in people using GWR from OOC just to get to Paddington faster to then join a crossrail service?

I think it’s highly likely that you’d be much quicker getting a Crossrail service, firstly because their relief line platforms will be nearer, about half will be starting there, (and there’s going to be far more of them than the remainder GWR relief line services), and secondly, I think it’s highly likely that GWR fast line services will be set down only towards London and vice versa.

 

[MarkyT]

Could we see an increase in people using GWR from OOC just to get to Paddington faster to then join a crossrail service?

One could become an efficient alternative to the other should there be a problem on either route, e.g. points failure in the terminus throat or the Lizzy turnback siding junctions. More interestingly, I wonder if local passengers would be allowed to transit from OOC to Euston on HS2 trains using (say) TfL PAYG as a fast way to get to that specific part of London or Kings Cross/St Pancras for an onward Continental, MML, ECML or HS1 domestic connection.

 

[HSTEd]

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/central-london-rail-termini-report.pdf

edit: I see I was beaten to it by @stuu

Cannon Street's stats are quite something!

 

[Bald Rick]

Cannon Street's stats are quite something!

they are - although back then Cannon St had reduced opening hours (and days!) and was very much for city commuters, so hardly surprising.

 

[coppercapped]

It is a lot further out than any of the other termini from any properly major destinations.

I despair of such vague arguments. What is meant by 'properly major destinations'?

So what if it is further out? Waterloo, until recently the busiest station in London, is the wrong side of the River...

I would be interested to see the proportion of onward travel for each station.

There have been studies of the onward travel pattern from London termini, for example TfL's
Central London Rail Termini: Analysing passengers' onward travel patterns from 2011. Unsurprisingly it found that the proportion of people walking to their destination was higher at Cannon Street and Charing Cross than at Paddington.

Paddington doesn't even have much of a proper entrance from the street

What are you expecting as a 'proper entrance' - a Victory Arch such as Waterloo?

You can, of course, also arrive by boat.

I would point out that it used to have quite a very functional entrance for cab passengers and pedestrians — the Hansom cabs dropped their clientele right outside the Booking Hall which led straight onto Platform 1 and a view of the roof. This taxi road was completely lost as the Crossrail station is now underneath it - but at least Crossrail passengers will now also come straight out onto Platform 1...

 

[Irascible]

There is a TfL report from 2011 which has the data, Paddington is the lowest by a fair margin for people walking out

Actually looks not dissimilar to Euston in stats. Obviously there's a few percent difference here & there between the Euston Road stations, but compare them to the ones *not* on Euston Road & they all look roughly the same. Barring Waterloo anyway, which is in much the same sort of situation.

Is Hyde park really a major traffic generator?

I would argue its the opposite, its a void in the middle of London.

I'd argue it's more of a traffic generator *inside* London. I spent most of my time working in the area between Warren St & Picadilly Circuis though, quite a lot of business going on there.

 

[Meglos]

I despair of such vague arguments. What is meant by 'properly major destinations'?

So what if it is further out? Waterloo, until recently the busiest station in London, is the wrong side of the River...

The 'southside' terminal stations were traditionally busier that the because of the dearth of underground railways for commuters south of the Thames. A lot of the Waterloo passengers are from the areas like Epsom, Kingston and Surbiton, whereas to the north of London places of comparable size are largely linked to the underground network.

 

[edwin_m]

Actually looks not dissimilar to Euston in stats. Obviously there's a few percent difference here & there between the Euston Road stations, but compare them to the ones *not* on Euston Road & they all look roughly the same. Barring Waterloo anyway, which is in much the same sort of situation.

As someone mentioned above, Page 60 of the linked report gives a 12% walk share at Paddington versus 20% at Euston (the grey box above it that says 12% at St Pancras appears to be an error). That's two thirds more at Euston, which I wouldn't describe as "not dissimilar". All the other Euston termini have a similar share to Euston, with Marylebone being a bit less despite its relatively poor Tube connections. There has been development round Paddington since then, so its walk share might have improved.

 

[stuu]

I despair of such vague arguments. What is meant by 'properly major destinations'?

What are you expecting as a 'proper entrance' - a Victory Arch such as Waterloo?

You can, of course, also arrive by boat.

I would point out that it used to have quite a very functional entrance for cab passengers and pedestrians — the Hansom cabs dropped their clientele right outside the Booking Hall which led straight onto Platform 1 and a view of the roof. This taxi road was completely lost as the Crossrail station is now underneath it - but at least Crossrail passengers will now also come straight out onto Platform 1...

Fair point. I would suggest that Oxford St/west end, Westminster/Whitehall, and the city of London are the major destinations in central London for people arriving into terminal stations. Paddington is further from any of those by some margin.

No other terminal station has such a dismal entrance as Paddington, which is very much in keeping with the expectation that not many passengers walk in

 

[Bletchleyite]

One could become an efficient alternative to the other should there be a problem on either route, e.g. points failure in the terminus throat or the Lizzy turnback siding junctions. More interestingly, I wonder if local passengers would be allowed to transit from OOC to Euston on HS2 trains using (say) TfL PAYG as a fast way to get to that specific part of London or Kings Cross/St Pancras for an onward Continental, MML, ECML or HS1 domestic connection.

I am pretty sure I read HS2 will not carry passengers between OOC and Euston (or vice versa) because it would muck up the very tight planned dwells at OOC.

 

[edwin_m]

I am pretty sure I read HS2 will not carry passengers between OOC and Euston (or vice versa) because it would muck up the very tight planned dwells at OOC.

It would also be quite awkward in the outbound direction because, as mentioned, long-distance passengers who have a choice are more likely to join their train at Euston. Also if you arrive at a station where your destination has trains every 3min or so from one of ten platforms, it's quite possible you'll pick a platform to head for but your train will have departed by the time you get there!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would also be quite awkward in the outbound direction because, as mentioned, long-distance passengers who have a choice are more likely to join their train at Euston. Also if you arrive at a station where your destination has trains every 3min or so from one of ten platforms, it's quite possible you'll pick a platform to head for but your train will have departed by the time you get there!

To be fair people seem to cope at Vauxhall/Clapham Jn.

 

[HSTEd]

I am pretty sure I read HS2 will not carry passengers between OOC and Euston (or vice versa) because it would muck up the very tight planned dwells at OOC.

The tight dwells are less tight now however, as it is unlikely we will reach the fully planned timetable any time soon.

 

[edwin_m]

To be fair people seem to cope at Vauxhall/Clapham Jn.

Those stations have a lot fewer than ten platforms for the same destination, and each of those platforms generally has a train every few minutes. If you miss the one you intended then you either stay on the same platform for a short time or there is a limited number of other platforms you could try instead.

At Euston each platform has two trains per hour. If it takes a bit longer then you expected to get to one and the train has gone, you then need to work out where the next train is you can catch (which may not be the next departure, depending on the complexity of the arrangements and your own mobility) and potentially repeat the process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those stations have a lot fewer than ten platforms for the same destination, and each of those platforms generally has a train every few minutes. If you miss the one you intended then you either stay on the same platform for a short time or there is a limited number of other platforms you could try instead.

At Euston each platform has two trains per hour. If it takes a bit longer then you expected to get to one and the train has gone, you then need to work out where the next train is you can catch (which may not be the next departure, depending on the complexity of the arrangements and your own mobility) and potentially repeat the process.

Which is how it is now, pretty much, and people cope. A train to MKC, for instance, could depart from any of the 16 platforms (though 9 would be very rare).

 

[swt_passenger]

Those stations have a lot fewer than ten platforms for the same destination, and each of those platforms generally has a train every few minutes. If you miss the one you intended then you either stay on the same platform for a short time or there is a limited number of other platforms you could try instead.

At Euston each platform has two trains per hour. If it takes a bit longer then you expected to get to one and the train has gone, you then need to work out where the next train is you can catch (which may not be the next departure, depending on the complexity of the arrangements and your own mobility) and potentially repeat the process.

I wonder if the point Bletchleyite made is not really about being AT those stations but leaving Waterloo heading TO Vauxhall or Clapham Junction, ie if you’re at Waterloo do you factor in that the next successive trains to Clapham Junction might be 24 platforms apart?

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if the point Bletchleyite made is not really about being AT those stations but leaving Waterloo heading TO Vauxhall or Clapham Junction, ie if you’re at Waterloo do you factor in that the next successive trains to Clapham Junction might be 24 platforms apart?

Yes, that's a good point.

 

[HSTEd]

At Euston each platform has two trains per hour. If it takes a bit longer then you expected to get to one and the train has gone, you then need to work out where the next train is you can catch (which may not be the next departure, depending on the complexity of the arrangements and your own mobility) and potentially repeat the process.

This leads to an interesting platform optimisation problem - it also suggests it might be better for usability to have reserve platforms used only in disruption and concentrate trains into fewer platforms normally, especially to short destinations like Birmingham and Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This leads to an interesting platform optimisation problem - it also suggests it might be better for usability to have reserve platforms used only in disruption and concentrate trains into fewer platforms normally, especially to short destinations like Birmingham and Manchester.

Because reservations are likely to be compulsory (due, I believe, to the evacuation plans for the long tunnel), this would have no benefit - people will only be interested in their booked train and not others.