• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

Status
Not open for further replies.

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,718
A few more Tory MPs expressing their opposition to Boris during todays Q&A on Sue Gray report. The body language of some Cabinet Ministers was interesting - quite a few looked liked they wished they were somewhere else.

The fact that he refused to say if he will publish the full Sue Gray report - which a couple of Tory MPs demanded did not go down well
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,540
Location
Kent
A few more Tory MPs expressing their opposition to Boris during todays Q&A on Sue Gray report. The body language of some Cabinet Ministers was interesting - quite a few looked liked they wished they were somewhere else.

The fact that he refused to say if he will publish the full Sue Gray report - which a couple of Tory MPs demanded did not go down well
The one that shook me was Aaron Bell. Never heard of him before, but the tone must have been chilling for the PM. Many, many voters will empathise.

Tory MP asks "Am I a fool" for following the rules in blistering attack on Boris Johnson
 

kermit

Member
Joined
2 May 2011
Messages
631
And yet, once again, the "greased piglet" seems to have got away. Mutterings reported of giving him till the spring local elections to see if the public "move on"....
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,476
Location
Taunton or Kent
Tory MP Peter Aldous has just declared Johnson needs to go and has submitted a letter of no confidence (15 minutes ago at time of post):


After a great deal of soul-searching, I have reached the conclusion that the Prime Minister should resign. (1/3)

It is clear that he has no intention of doing so and I have therefore written to the Chairman of the 1922 Committee of Backbench Conservative MPs, advising him that I have no confidence in the Prime Minister as Leader of the Conservative Party. (2/3)

I have never taken such action before and had hoped that I would not be put in such an invidious position. Whilst I am conscious that others will disagree with me, I believe that this is in the best interests of the country, the Government and the Conservative Party. (3/3)

What I think this shows is that despite the passage of time since letters started going in, and reports of some being withdrawn, it's still possible a no confidence vote could happen very soon. Whether Johnson loses it is another matter.
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,718
Tory MP Peter Aldous has just declared Johnson needs to go and has submitted a letter of no confidence (15 minutes ago at time of post):




What I think this shows is that despite the passage of time since letters started going in, and reports of some being withdrawn, it's still possible a no confidence vote could happen very soon. Whether Johnson loses it is another matter.
Looking back at the last leadership vote, Johnson was the first choice of only just over a third of Tory MPs. The last election saw a lot of traditional small c conservative Tory MPs retire and supposedly Johnson loyalists elected in their place. It would be interesting to see how many Tory MPs of the present intake would make him their first choice now.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,476
Location
Taunton or Kent
Two prominent pro Tory papers have tomorrow have found a new line of attack on the Government that could be highly damaging, that of all the covid financial wastage in PPE failings. Even the Daily Express are attacking the Government over this, and given the Tories try to pride themselves on fiscal responsibility, this will not go down well:


1643756126644.png1643756143555.png
 

Attachments

  • 1643756168416.png
    1643756168416.png
    887.1 KB · Views: 9

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,036
Something else which isn't helping Johnson's reputation is his claim that Starmer had involvement in not prosecuting Jimmy SavIle.

There have been various press fact checks on this (I've seen one from Routers from Nov 21 and one from the BBC) which state that whilst he was the head of the CPS at the time it was unlikely that he would have been aware of the case when a lawyer gave their response to Surrey Police.

Whilst there's been a statement which confirms he stands by his comments in the house, no one is willing to repeat it.

Links:
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-britain-savile-idUSL1N2RP200

Savile was interviewed under caution by Surrey Police in October 2009 but no arrest was made.

Surrey Police consulted the CPS for advice about the allegations, according to a 2013 CPS statement made by Starmer as DPP (here).

In 2012, Starmer appointed his Principal Legal Advisor, Alison Levitt QC, to examine the decisions made by the CPS in relation to the 2007 and 2008 allegations.

Levitt’s findings are laid out in a report here , which Starmer published in full in 2013 (here).

The report found that in October 2009, the CPS lawyer responsible for the cases advised that no prosecution could be brought on the grounds that none of the complainants were “prepared to support any police action”.

Levitt said she found nothing to suggest decisions not to prosecute were “consciously influenced by any improper motive on the part of either police or prosecutors”.


Levitt said in the report that Savile might have been prosecuted if the police and prosecutors took a different approach.

Starmer subsequently criticised the handling of the allegations by police and prosecutors in his 2013 statement on the report. He also apologised for “shortcomings in the part played by the CPS in these cases” and said he hoped it would be a “watershed moment” for the handling of such complaints.


BBC Reality Check has examined Boris Johnson's claim that Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer failed to prosecute Jimmy Savile when he was director of public prosecutions (DPP) and has found no evidence that Sir Keir was involved at any point in the decision not to charge Savile.
The Labour leader called Mr Johnson's comments a "ridiculous slur" and they have been criticised by the Commons Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle.
Boris Johnson "stands by" his comments, according to the prime minister's official spokesperson, who declined to repeat them.
Mr Johnson had said that Sir Keir "spent most of his time [as DPP] prosecuting journalists and failing to prosecute Jimmy Savile".
He made the unfounded claim, which has been discredited before, in the House of Commons where "parliamentary privilege" gives MPs certain legal protections over what they say.

The Savile investigation​

Jimmy Savile was revealed to be a serial sexual abuser after his death in 2011. The DJ and television presenter had attacked hundreds of women and children at various locations including hospitals, schools and the BBC.
Four allegations of sexual assault by Savile in the 1970s were investigated by Surrey and Sussex Police in 2007 and 2008.
Sir Keir was head of the Crown Prosecution Service in 2009 when Surrey Police interviewed Savile and consulted a CPS lawyer who decided there was insufficient evidence for a prosecution to take place.
As Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Keir Starmer was the most senior public prosecutor in England and Wales and responsible for leading the CPS.
The CPS prosecutes most criminal cases in England and Wales and employs about 6,000 staff, half of them lawyers who decide which cases should go ahead.

In 2012, Sir Keir commissioned a report from Alison Levitt QC into why Savile was not prosecuted.
In three cases investigated by Surrey Police, no prosecutions were brought on the basis that none of the victims was prepared to give evidence in court.
The report suggested that had the victims known there were other people making similar complaints they might have been prepared to do so. Prosecutions could have been possible "had the police and prosecutors taken a different approach".
It also concluded: "I have seen nothing to suggest that the decisions not to prosecute were consciously influenced by any improper motive on the part of either police or prosecutors."
The CPS said: "There is no reference within the report to any involvement from the DPP in the decision-making in the case. The reviewing lawyer at the time set out their own reasons for the decisions they took, which are reproduced in the report."
Reality Check spoke to Nazir Afzal who was Chief Crown Prosecutor in the CPS for North West England from 2011-15.
We asked him whether - as DPP - Keir Starmer would have known about the decision not to prosecute Savile.
He said: "None of that would have been escalated beyond the south-east and Keir wasn't aware of it."
"At that time we were dealing [with] 900,000 prosecutions a year," he added.
Sir Keir said when the report was published: "I would like to take the opportunity to apologise for the shortcomings in the part played by the CPS in these cases. If this report and my apology are to serve their full purpose, then this must be seen as a watershed moment."

What has the reaction been?​

The Labour leader called Mr Johnson's comment "a ridiculous slur, peddled by right-wing trolls".
Unfounded posts directly accusing Sir Keir of failing to prosecute Savile saw an upsurge on social media after he became Labour leader in April 2020.
They have been shared by British followers of the QAnon conspiracy theory, among others.
A video clip of the prime minister's accusation has been spreading on anti-vaccine channels with thousands of followers on social media chat app Telegram, as "proof" of an alleged cover-up of high-profile child abuse.
Richard Scorer, a lawyer who represented victims of Savile, told the BBC that the prime minister's claim was "fundamentally baseless".
He said the victims he had spoken to were "disgusted by Mr Johnson's comments" and called on the prime minister to withdraw them and apologise.
The Speaker of the House of Commons Sir Lindsay Hoyle said he was "far from satisfied that the comments in question were appropriate on this occasion".
Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab said: 'I'm certainly not repeating it... I can't substantiate that", when asked about it on BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
 

Revilo

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2018
Messages
346
The point about the Savile thing though is that Sir Kier was in charge of the CPS at the time. As leader, he had (and has to) take responsibility - and he rightly apologised for it at the time, just as Boris has apologised for parties he didn’t attend (as well as those he did).
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,540
Location
Kent
The point about the Savile thing though is that Sir Kier was in charge of the CPS at the time. As leader, he had (and has to) take responsibility - and he rightly apologised for it at the time, just as Boris has apologised for parties he didn’t attend (as well as those he did).
... eventually.
 

Acfb

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
616
I can see Johnson riding it out for a few months yet but I can't really read the overall mood of Tory MPs.

I can even see him riding it out into 2023. It was a combination of factors, not just bad election results which got rid of May in 2019.
 
Last edited:

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,476
Location
Taunton or Kent
Tobias Elwood has submitted a letter of no confidence, which given his more moderate stance doesn't bode well for Johnson, as others could now be persuaded by Elwood's action:


Boris Johnson is facing further calls to resign, as Tobias Ellwood became the latest Tory MP to say he wants to oust him from office.
The Bournemouth East MP said he would be submitting a letter of no confidence in the PM, amid the ongoing row over lockdown parties in No 10.
He joins colleague Peter Aldous, who said on Tuesday he had done the same.
At least 54 Tories must submit letters to set up a vote on the PM's future.
A handful of Tory MPs, including Scottish Tory leader Douglas Ross, have said they have submitted letters to the backbench 1922 Committee, which runs leadership contests.
But the exact number of letters submitted is not known.

Mr Johnson is seeking to head off a leadership challenge prompted by weeks of damaging headlines about parties in government buildings held whilst Covid restrictions were in place.
Initial findings from senior official Sue Gray's inquiry, published on Monday, revealed 12 events are now under investigation by the Metropolitan Police.
Mr Ellwood, who chairs the Commons Defence Committee, said it was "time to resolve this" as the Conservative Party is "slipping into a very ugly place".
Speaking to Sky News, he added it had become "just horrible" for the party's MPs to "continuously have to defend this to the British public".
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,540
Location
Kent
Tobias Elwood has submitted a letter of no confidence, which given his more moderate stance doesn't bode well for Johnson, as others could now be persuaded by Elwood's action:

Except that he has been a critic of Johnson for some time - especially over parties. (Eg from 24 Jan '22
Prime Minister’s wife, Carrie Johnson, had organised the surprise get-together complete with a chorus of “happy birthday” on the afternoon of June 19 2020, when indoor social mixing was banned.

Conservative MP Tobias Ellwood said: "It's very sad to read these latest headlines.

“The nation is rightly very angry by what has happened.

“It’s all a massive distraction from where we really should be focusing.
https://www.gbnews.uk/news/tobias-e...fresh-downing-street-party-allegations/212351

However, the following is interesting (from 17 Dec '20):
The home secretary, Priti Patel, has accused a senior Tory MP of breaching Covid-19 rules after he attended a Christmas dinner for 27 people at a private members’ club.

Tobias Ellwood, a former Foreign Office minister who chairs the influential Commons defence select committee, attended an event at the Cavalry and Guards Club in London on Tuesday evening hours before the capital moved into tier 3. Only a day earlier in parliament he called on the government to review its plans to relax restrictions for Christmas to avoid a third wave in the new year.

The dinner, in Piccadilly, was held by the Iraq Britain Business Council (IBBC) and was initially described as a “Christmas party” on its website before the reference was removed.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ont-travel-to-see-people-this-christmas-covid

I couldn't find any record of the Home Secretary commenting about certain other events that took place at much the same time.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
11,000
Location
London
I can see Johnson riding it out for a few months yet but I can't really read the overall mood of Tory MPs.

I can even see him riding it out into 2023. It was a combination of factors, not just bad election results which got rid of May in 2019.

Many opposition parties will be happy to see him continue for the next few months as it is making local elections campaigning much easier for Labour and Lib Dems (and probably Greens in places) where they are challenging Tories. Yes local politics doesn't always align to national mood, but it does have some bearing. Trust in Conservative politicans (of all levels) is certainly at a very low level.
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,540
Location
Kent
Many opposition parties will be happy to see him continue for the next few months as it is making local elections campaigning much easier for Labour and Lib Dems (and probably Greens in places) where they are challenging Tories. Yes local politics doesn't always align to national mood, but it does have some bearing. Trust in Conservative politicians (of all levels) is certainly at a very low level.
You are right. Some Conservative canvassers may be reluctant to volunteer because of the hostility they may encounter - not physical but being given accounts of how the voter abided by the rules at a personal cost, while No. 10 partied. Worse case scenario for the Conservatives - Sue Grey is permitted to publish her full report is published in mid April.

However, if there are big Conservative losses, expect an even bigger squeeze on local government spending.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
Except that he has been a critic of Johnson for some time - especially over parties. (Eg from 24 Jan '22 https://www.gbnews.uk/news/tobias-e...fresh-downing-street-party-allegations/212351

However, the following is interesting (from 17 Dec '20):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ont-travel-to-see-people-this-christmas-covid

I couldn't find any record of the Home Secretary commenting about certain other events that took place at much the same time.
I remember a piece in the Times Diary at the time mentioning Patel and Sajid Javid not exactly seeing eye to eye with each other and Elwood (a friend of Javid) and Patel loathing each other!
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
9
I remember a piece in the Times Diary at the time mentioning Patel and Sajid Javid not exactly seeing eye to eye with each other and Elwood (a friend of Javid) and Patel loathing each other!

Elwood is not alone in that respect. Ms Patel isn't exactly an easy person to like. Yet for some reason, Johnson seems to have been very, very reluctant to sack her.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The point about the Savile thing though is that Sir Kier was in charge of the CPS at the time. As leader, he had (and has to) take responsibility - and he rightly apologised for it at the time, just as Boris has apologised for parties he didn’t attend (as well as those he did).

Except Starmer didn't try and dismiss the accusations against Savile in the same way that Johnson actually attended the parties.

Johnson knows he's the lowest of the low, and to counter this, is attacking others for the speck in their eyes compared to the whopping great plank in his own.
 
Last edited:

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,032
Location
St Albans
9


Elwood is not alone in that respect. Ms Patel isn't exactly an easy person to like. Yet for some reason, Johnson seems to have been very, very reluctant to sack her.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Except Starmer didn't try and dismiss the accusations against Savile in the same way that Johnson actually attended the parties.

Johnson knows he's the lowest of the low, and to counter this, is attacking others for the speck in their eyes compared to the whopping great plank in his own.
I find it hard to believe that there are members here can actually post support for Johnson. I imagine that most geniune Conservative supporters would feel too embarassed. The interviews and vox pops on support for Johnson shown on TV news this week find a single concilliatory comment (in the interest of 'balance') but it sounds more like a TV equivalent of a troll.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
How ironic would it be if Savile in effect brought Johnson down in the end?! None of Savile's victims contacted by the BBC supported Johnson's comments one iota. Some of the more thoughtful Tory MPs like Julian Smith and Tobias Elwood have now had more than they can put up with from Johnson.
 

Tester

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
1,701
Location
Watford
I'm really puzzled as to why Johnson isn't being pulled apart over the Savile allegation.

Over and above the fact that it's factually incorrect and desperately inappropriate, what Johnson seems to be suggesting is that the person at the top of an organisation is fully responsible for, and must take the consequences for, decisions taken lower down in that organisation regardless of the actual facts on the ground.

Johnson is the person at the top of the organisation known as the government - therefore by his own admission he is fully responsible for, and must take the consequences for, decisions taken lower down in that organisation regardless of the actual facts on the ground.

Given his current situation this is an 'interesting' position for him to take.
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,476
Location
Taunton or Kent
I'm really puzzled as to why Johnson isn't being pulled apart over the Savile allegation.

Over and above the fact that it's factually incorrect and desperately inappropriate, what Johnson seems to be suggesting is that the person at the top of an organisation is fully responsible for, and must take the consequences for, decisions taken lower down in that organisation regardless of the actual facts on the ground.

Johnson is the person at the top of the organisation known as the government - therefore by his own admission he is fully responsible for, and must take the consequences for, decisions taken lower down in that organisation regardless of the actual facts on the ground.

Given his current situation this is an 'interesting' position for him to take.
If he said it outside Parliament he absolutely would be pulled over about it, as Starmer would be able to sue for libel. I imagine a major factor, as with most other incidents Johnson's responsible for recently, is the lack of clear alternative within the party.

Meanwhile Anthony Mangnall has added to those publicly confirming they've submitted a letter of no confidence:


Standards in public life matter. At this time I can no longer support the PM. His actions and mistruths are overshadowing the extraordinary work of so many excellent ministers and colleagues. I have submitted a letter of no confidence.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
9,213
Location
SE London
Ms Patel isn't exactly an easy person to like.

Really? Do you know her personally then?

(And before you ask, I don't know her personally either. And because I don't know her personally, I have no idea whether or not she's an easy person to like. Obviously, like many other people, I have opinions about some of her policies, but that's a different matter)
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,095
Location
Redcar
If he said it outside Parliament he absolutely would be pulled over about it, as Starmer would be able to sue for libel.
It was notable the contortions that Raaaab had to go through to try and avoid libelling Starmer when discussing it and not benefiting from the protection offered by Parliament...
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
9,430
Really? Do you know her personally then?

(And before you ask, I don't know her personally either. And because I don't know her personally, I have no idea whether or not she's an easy person to like. Obviously, like many other people, I have opinions about some of her policies, but that's a different matter)
No, but irrespective of one's opinion on political matters, to my eyes the alleged bullying scandal doesn't look good. Also, someone who encourages people to 'snitch' on their neighbours when breaking the 'rule of 6' (irrespective of whether you think this was a good idea or not - FWIW I could see the sense in the 'rule of 6' at the time) is not exactly a good personality trait. Neither does it look good to emit a huge smile when talking about restricting EU citizens' immigration freedoms at the Tory 2019 conference.
 
Last edited:

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
9,213
Location
SE London
No, but irrespective of one's opinion on political matters, to my eyes the alleged bullying scandal doesn't look good. Also, someone who encourages people to 'snitch' on their neighbours when breaking the 'rule of 6' (irrespective of whether you think this was a good idea or not - FWIW I could see the sense in the 'rule of 6' at the time) is not exactly a good personality trait. Neither does it look good to emit a huge smile when talking about restricting EU citizens' immigration freedoms at the Tory 2019 conference.

Yes, if I was trying to make a guess at her likely character, then the alleged bullying scandal is the one thing that would worry me, but we don't know if it's a one-off or a symptom of something deeper, so in the absence of similar things happening - I'd say, benefit of the doubt.

As for presenting policies - I wouldn't use a policy I disagree with to judge someone's character or likeability unless there's some good reason to believe that policy/person's actions are motivated by malice. Neither seems to be the case for the examples you cite. The snitching thing could be very plausibly motivated by wanting to prioritise stopping an (at the time) deadly disease from spreading, and the immigration stuff... well, I don't know about the particular incident, but if you've successfully enacted a policy that you believe is a good thing for the country, wouldn't you be likely to be smiling about it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top