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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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dosxuk

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replace him with a centre-right 'One Nation' type (if there are any left)

Virtually all of the capable ones were got rid of in the culling of people not fully signed up to Team Boris. That's how we've ended up with the current bunch in the cabinet - loyalty to Boris is far more important than being able to do a competent job.

It's also what's going to do the long term damage to the Tory party - they could easily end up where they were in the early 2000's, or Labour was for the end of the 2010's, with a group of very loyal people at the top of the party, but completely unattractive to the voting public.
 
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nw1

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Potential replacements, particularly Sunak, seem less likely to do that than Johnson.

Sunak is a bit of an unknown quantity, though I have heard accusations of being somewhat neoliberal (not sure whether these are true, I haven't looked into him in any detail).

I don't trust Truss though (apologies for the appalling pun). She was one of the co-writers of 'Britannia Unchained', which asserted that Britain was basically a nation of lazy work-shy scroungers (the other co-authors were Raab, Patel, Kwarteng and one or two other much more obscure Tory MPs).

I honestly think Hunt and May are the best of a bad lot! Certainly they need to ditch the economically-right-wing and/or fundamentalist-Brexiter types if they want to be seen as a party at all close to the centre.
 

brad465

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How have the Daily Mirror and the Guardian been approaching this particular subject?
The Mirror have decided to focus on the Andrew debacle (along with The Express), while The Guardian have a variety of front page headlines, primarily the leak regarding the Kabul animal evacuation authorisation, but also sections on the Ukraine situation and Jobseeker's allowance reforms proposed.



Next up The Independent have revealed Liz Truss blew £500,000 on a private Airbus all the way to/from Australia, rather than one of the scheduled Qantas flights, and creating 500 tonnes of CO2 emissions in the process:


Foreign secretary Liz Truss flew by private jet to Australia at a cost of over half-a-million pounds to the taxpayer because she chose not to use scheduled business-class flights.

Rather than travelling from London to Sydney on one of the daily Qantas departures, Ms Truss insisted on flying the 22,000 miles to, from and within Australia on the private government Airbus A321.

The aircraft type holds 235 passengers on easyJet flights, but the government’s version is kitted out with a VIP interior – including lie-flat beds.

The mission to Australia and back this week burnt an estimated 150 tonnes of fuel and generated nearly 500 tonnes of CO2.

The Ministerial Code makes clear that only the foreign secretary could authorise such a flight.

Scheduled flights were available for the same itinerary, but it is understood the private flight was chosen for ‘security considerations’ amid fears that conversations could be overheard by other passengers.

A leading environmental campaigner has described the foreign secretary’s choice as “an outrageous source of emissions in the current climate emergency”.

Ms Truss began her journey on at noon on 18 January with a flight from London Stansted to Dubai. It took off two hours after the regular Qantas departure from Heathrow, which went nonstop to Darwin in Australia’s Northern Territory and continued to Sydney.

After a 90-minute refuelling stop in the UAE, the foreign secretary’s plane flew overnight to Kuala Lumpur, where it took on more fuel.

Flight XT645, as it was coded, touched down at Sydney shortly after midnight on 20 January – five hours behind the Qantas scheduled flight from London.

If Johnson is replaced this year and Truss tries to takeover, she now joins Sunak in an area of financial incompetence (Sunak's being, among other matters, the £4.3bn fraud write-off).
 

Busaholic

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I honestly think Hunt and May are the best of a bad lot! Certainly they need to ditch the economically-right-wing and/or fundamentalist-Brexiter types if they want to be seen as a party at all close to the centre.
Come back Theresa, all is forgiven! ;)
 

brad465

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Apparently the Newspaper front page that the Daily Express made when Thatcher resigned is doing the rounds among Tory MPs by those defending Johnson. What they don't seem to realise is that getting rid of Thatcher will have played a Major (pardon the pun) part in the Tories winning the 1992 election; keeping her on could easily have allowed Labour to win/force the Tories out of power earlier than they did.


This is the famous Daily Express front page being circulated by allies of Boris Johnson to Tory MPs today. Will Conservative MPs also regret removing Johnson as their leader in coming days?

1643307208418.png

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Kwarteng has also gone on record and backed the government into a corner by saying there will be no u-turn on the NI tax rise, which will make a u-turn even more embarrassing if it happens, or if it goes ahead, will cause many problems for cost of living on top of existing ones:


There will be "no U-turn" on a planned National Insurance hike intended to fund health and social care, Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng has said.
The planned rise has faced criticism from MPs, including calls from Conservatives for it to be scrapped.
Critics have said that the increase will have a higher impact on the lower-paid and contribute to inflation.
But the government has said it is needed to help the NHS recover after the pandemic.
Mr Kwarteng told the BBC on Thursday that there would be "No U-turn" on the rise.
"We're totally committed to funding the NHS, clearing the backlog of the NHS, and also funding social care and the way to do that is through this tax rise.
"That's how we're going to get the revenue to pay for the backlog and to pay for a sustainable social care system," he said.

Inflation pressures​

It comes after a Treasury Select Committee report warned that the planned rise would contribute to a rise in inflation.
Mel Stride, a Conservative MP and the committee chairman, told the BBC on Thursday that there was an "opportunity now to not go ahead with the National Insurance rise in April", and that he would prefer to see it delayed for a year.
On Monday Conservative MP David Davis told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme that the policy was based on the "wrong data", adding that policy makers did not know that by April the UK would have the highest inflation for 30 years, or that interest rates, council tax, and fuel prices would be rising when formulating the policy.
"They didn't know what pressure there would be on ordinary people," he said.

Under the plans, employees, employers and the self-employed will all pay 1.25p more in the pound for National Insurance (NI) from April 2022 for a year, when the extra tax will be collected as a new Health and Social Care Levy.
The increase will see an employee on £20,000 a year pay an extra £130. Someone on £50,000 will pay £505 more.
People earning less than £9,564 a year, or £797 a month, don't have to pay National Insurance and won't have to pay the new levy.
The government says the changes are expected to raise £12bn a year, which will go initially towards easing pressure on the NHS .
A proportion will then be moved into social care system over the next three years.
 
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The Ham

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Kwarteng has also gone on record and backed the government into a corner by saying there will be no u-turn on the NI tax rise, which will make a u-turn even more embarrassing if it happens, or if it goes ahead, will cause many problems for cost of living on top of existing ones:

Whilst it will cause problems the scraping in the increase isn't the only way to square the circle.

For example if the zero rated part increased by £500 then rather than it being £130 extra for someone on £20,000 it would be an extra £70.

It would mean that anyone earning up to £10,064 would then pay nothing (so would be better off by £60), whilst anyone earning up to £15,000 would see their NI payments reduce.

Now whilst that would still cause issues for some, certainly less than before.

To reduce the "loss" to the government it could be that the threshold for the higher band (where it reduces down) could also move upwards. It would likely need to move upwards by more than £500 to recover the costs (as fewer people would pay it), say £1,500, however in doing so it would see a larger share of taxes on those with larger pay packets.

Although it should be noted that this would only ready impact those earning in excess of £50,000, with anyone over circa £52,000 paying an extra £95 on top of the currently proposed increase (so an extra circa £600 for someone earning £52,000).

Of course it still wouldn't impact those with some other income sources (such as shares). However it could be a way to be seen to do something to help out "hard working families" without having to do a full U-turn.

Whilst that's not too say that such a change wouldn't cause problems for individuals, there certainly would be less fallout as those who are likely to struggle the most are more likely to see modest changes to their NI payments with there being some who see them fall.

Alternatively it could be that the basic rate of NI increases by 0.25p in the pound however with an extra £1,000 added to the zero rated element.

That would mean a reduction for anyone earning up to about £18,000, whilst someone on £50,000 would see their increases reduce from the original proposal (by ~£35 to circa £470 rather than the first suggestion which would have saved ~£70 with their increase being circa £435). With this proposal the upper band threshold could also be increased, however now likely to be also by £1,000, with those over circa £51,000 would have seen an increase in their payments broadly in line with the original proposal and those beyond that seeing increases.

The above two suggestions are just two possible ways that things could change without being a full U-turn, however there would be many ways which the changes could be done to minimise the overall impact.
 

Cowley

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Tom Tugendhat has declared that he would be interested in becoming leader of the Conservative Party:


Mr Tugendhat, the MP for Tonbridge and Malling who has been critical of the government's handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal, said he wanted to be open about his ambition.

He said: "It would be a huge privilege. It's one of those questions that I know many people ask and some people, some of my colleagues, are coy about, and I don't understand why.

"I don't think you should be embarrassed to want to serve your country. I was very proud to serve my country in the armed forces, and I got to the highest rank I could so that I could have the best effect that I could.

Obviously a vacancy would need to become available before we start a new thread on who the next Tory leader might be, but I have listened to him talking about Afghanistan and China amongst other things over the last few years and he seems like a competent member of parliament from my observations.
He’s very much an opposite of Johnson in the way that he always seems pretty up on the detail when it comes to certain matters.
 

brad465

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Tom Tugendhat has declared that he would be interested in becoming leader of the Conservative Party:




Obviously a vacancy would need to become available before we start a new thread on who the next Tory leader might be, but I have listened to him talking about Afghanistan and China amongst other things over the last few years and he seems like a competent member of parliament from my observations.
He’s very much an opposite of Johnson in the way that he always seems pretty up on the detail when it comes to certain matters.
If I move a few miles west I could vote for him in the next election. What would be hilarious though is if he gets it off the back of being relatively low profile since Johnson became PM, while Truss and Sunak have been busy spending huge amounts of time and money on good PR for their expected leadership bids, all to be in vain.

The fact that somebody in the party has openly said they're considering running for the leadership is a sign that belief Johnson's time is up is strong within the party. I imagine he also has the freedom of being a backbencher; I suspect even with his weak authority Johnson would not hesitate to sack a Cabinet Minister if they said the same thing.
 

87 027

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I wonder if the maximum fine for attending these "gatherings" that were held in the period of restriction should now be retrospectfully applied to each and every person who attended any or every event that was held.
Janet Daley writing in today's Daily Telegraph suggests that the issue is not so much about cake and Prosecco, as the subsequent denials and what that says about personal integrity. She comes to the interesting conclusion that it is only in more recent times that people have cared about this sort of thing in their politicians and that in previous periods of English history those setting the rules for others have got away with far worse.
 

TheEdge

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Janet Daley writing in today's Daily Telegraph suggests that the issue is not so much about cake and Prosecco, as the subsequent denials and what that says about personal integrity. She comes to the interesting conclusion that it is only in more recent times that people have cared about this sort of thing in their politicians and that in previous periods of English history those setting the rules for others have got away with far worse.

I think its because its actually relatable. Normally these political scandals just don't apply to situations we me mortals ever come across so they are all quite nebulous. But people followed these rules, lost jobs, missed funerals, made some serious sacrifices and the government who made those rules and set about enforcing them ignored them.

I missed a chance to see my grandad while he still had his faculties because I followed the rules, by the time I could see him again dementia had erased the man I knew. But Boris and chums were having cheese and wine parties. My 30th went uncelebrated because it was in the middle of Lockdown 2, Boris had his buddies bring cake in.
 

brad465

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Two front pages tomorrow have headlines that don't look good for Johnson, The Sunday Telegraph and The Independent. The former has a story claiming Johnson's aide was watching cricket while Kabul fell, while the latter is suggesting Sunak believes Johnson can't survive partygate and is putting the finishing touches on his leadership bid:


1643493327368.png1643493337943.png

There maybe more front pages of interest to come as not many have been released yet.
 

yorksrob

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Johnson's definitely finished.

In a way it's a shame. I had high hopes for a different form of conservatism to emerge. Something more Gaullist and dedicated to British prestige, rather than the old market/austerity based conservatism that we've endured for the past forty years.

I guess it's markets and austerity to look forward to now. Destroying everything about Britain for the sake of "the market".
 
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Gloster

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What could be seen an even more serious accusation has surfaced. There was considerable laxity in the handling of documents of the highest level of security (‘beyond Top Secret’), such as those only to be seen by named individuals. These were left lying about parts of 10 Downing Street and Chequers to which people not part of the establishments there, such as Carrie Johnson’s friends, had access.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Janet Daley writing in today's Daily Telegraph suggests that the issue is not so much about cake and Prosecco, as the subsequent denials and what that says about personal integrity. She comes to the interesting conclusion that it is only in more recent times that people have cared about this sort of thing in their politicians and that in previous periods of English history those setting the rules for others have got away with far worse.
My posting did state everyone who was at those gatherings. Janet Daley seems to conveniently forget that the offences that were legally against the law in question and as such should be viewed for the transgressions of all attendees that so occurred.

Personal integrity is a totally different matter and should not be used as a defence of unlawful transgressions, which is a matter that can be viewed legally if there still be an arcane law of chivalry still on the statute books.
 

43096

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Johnson's definitely finished.

In a way it's a shame. I had high hopes for a different form of conservatism to emerge. Something more Gaullist and dedicated to British prestige, rather than the old market/austerity based conservatism that we've endured for the past forty years.

I guess it's markets and austerity to look forward to now. Destroying everything about Britain for the sake of "the market".
If you had high hopes of Johnson you were always going to be disappointed. It is worth re-reading what Max Hastings said of him before he became Tory leader:

Six years ago, the Cambridge historian Christopher Clark published a study of the outbreak of the first world war, titled The Sleepwalkers. Though Clark is a fine scholar, I was unconvinced by his title, which suggested that the great powers stumbled mindlessly to disaster. On the contrary, the maddest aspect of 1914 was that each belligerent government convinced itself that it was acting rationally.

It would be fanciful to liken the ascent of Boris Johnson to the outbreak of global war, but similar forces are in play. There is room for debate about whether he is a scoundrel or mere rogue, but not much about his moral bankruptcy, rooted in a contempt for truth. Nonetheless, even before the Conservative national membership cheers him in as our prime minister – denied the option of Nigel Farage, whom some polls suggest they would prefer – Tory MPs have thronged to do just that.

I have known Johnson since the 1980s, when I edited the Daily Telegraph and he was our flamboyant Brussels correspondent. I have argued for a decade that, while he is a brilliant entertainer who made a popular maître d’ for London as its mayor, he is unfit for national office, because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification.

Tory MPs have launched this country upon an experiment in celebrity government, matching that taking place in Ukraine and the US, and it is unlikely to be derailed by the latest headlines. The Washington Post columnist George Will observes that Donald Trump does what his political base wants “by breaking all the china”. We can’t predict what a Johnson government will do, because its prospective leader has not got around to thinking about this. But his premiership will almost certainly reveal a contempt for rules, precedent, order and stability.

A few admirers assert that, in office, Johnson will reveal an accession of wisdom and responsibility that have hitherto eluded him, not least as foreign secretary. This seems unlikely, as the weekend’s stories emphasised. Dignity still matters in public office, and Johnson will never have it. Yet his graver vice is cowardice, reflected in a willingness to tell any audience, whatever he thinks most likely to please, heedless of the inevitability of its contradiction an hour later.

Like many showy personalities, he is of weak character. I recently suggested to a radio audience that he supposes himself to be Winston Churchill, while in reality being closer to Alan Partridge. Churchill, for all his wit, was a profoundly serious human being. Far from perceiving anything glorious about standing alone in 1940, he knew that all difficult issues must be addressed with allies and partners.

Churchill’s self-obsession was tempered by a huge compassion for humanity, or at least white humanity, which Johnson confines to himself. He has long been considered a bully, prone to making cheap threats. My old friend Christopher Bland, when chairman of the BBC, once described to me how he received an angry phone call from Johnson, denouncing the corporation’s “gross intrusion upon my personal life” for its coverage of one of his love affairs.

“We know plenty about your personal life that you would not like to read in the Spectator,” the then editor of the magazine told the BBC’s chairman, while demanding he order the broadcaster to lay off his own dalliances.

Bland told me he replied: “Boris, think about what you have just said. There is a word for it, and it is not a pretty one.”

He said Johnson blustered into retreat, but in my own files I have handwritten notes from our possible next prime minister, threatening dire consequences in print if I continued to criticise him.

Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade. In a commonplace book the other day, I came across an observation made in 1750 by a contemporary savant, Bishop Berkeley: “It is impossible that a man who is false to his friends and neighbours should be true to the public.” Almost the only people who think Johnson a nice guy are those who do not know him.

There is, of course, a symmetry between himself and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn is far more honest, but harbours his own extravagant delusions. He may yet prove to be the only possible Labour leader whom Johnson can defeat in a general election. If the opposition was led by anybody else, the Tories would be deservedly doomed, because we would all vote for it. As it is, the Johnson premiership could survive for three or four years, shambling from one embarrassment and debacle to another, of which Brexit may prove the least.

For many of us, his elevation will signal Britain’s abandonment of any claim to be a serious country. It can be claimed that few people realised what a poor prime minister Theresa May would prove until they saw her in Downing Street. With Boris, however, what you see now is almost assuredly what we shall get from him as ruler of Britain.

We can scarcely strip the emperor’s clothes from a man who has built a career, or at least a lurid love life, out of strutting without them. The weekend stories of his domestic affairs are only an aperitif for his future as Britain’s leader. I have a hunch that Johnson will come to regret securing the prize for which he has struggled so long, because the experience of the premiership will lay bare his absolute unfitness for it.

If the Johnson family had stuck to showbusiness like the Osmonds, Marx Brothers or von Trapp family, the world would be a better place. Yet the Tories, in their terror, have elevated a cavorting charlatan to the steps of Downing Street, and they should expect to pay a full forfeit when voters get the message. If the price of Johnson proves to be Corbyn, blame will rest with the Conservative party, which is about to foist a tasteless joke upon the British people – who will not find it funny for long.
 

Jimini

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Two front pages tomorrow have headlines that don't look good for Johnson, The Sunday Telegraph and The Independent. The former has a story claiming Johnson's aide was watching cricket while Kabul fell, while the latter is suggesting Sunak believes Johnson can't survive partygate and is putting the finishing touches on his leadership bid:


View attachment 109507View attachment 109508

There maybe more front pages of interest to come as not many have been released yet.

Just a point of order -- the Indy hasn't been physically printed for about six years now. But the point made by both still stands aye.

It still baffles me why the Indy 'front pages' still make most websites' press coverage, despite being online only.
 

yorksrob

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I do believe that Britain deserves better from conservatism than the market free for all and austerity.

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If you had high hopes of Johnson you were always going to be disappointed. It is worth re-reading what Max Hastings said of him before he became Tory leader:
I believe Britain deserves better from conservatism.

Britain deserves a patriotic party that's not obsessed with markets and austerity.

British Gaulism's time is coming.
 
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edwin_m

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I do believe that Britain deserves better from conservatism than the market free for all and austerity.

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I believe Britain deserves better from conservatism.

Britain deserves a patriotic party that's not obsessed with markets and austerity.

British Gaulism's time is coming.
I'd put it differently. Britain deserves a right-of-centre party that cares for the whole population, not just the parts of it that they think will make up a parliamentary majority. Up until 1979 the Conservatives could claim, with some amount of justification, to be that party. In the 1980s conservatism abandoned much of Britain outside the south-east, and in 2019 it pivoted to favouring some of those areas at the expense of the pro-Europe centre-right nationwide.

Depending on what it actually means, "levelling up" was the right thing to be doing. But even if we had no knowledge of Johnson's previous behaviour, his espousing of Brexit exposed him as someone who doesn't have Britain's best interest at heart, as well as inflicting a wound on the economy that made it that much harder to pay for spending in left-behind areas without alienating traditional Tory supporters. Some of us welcomed the intention but were always very doubtful about the ability or willingness to deliver.
 

nw1

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Janet Daley writing in today's Daily Telegraph suggests that the issue is not so much about cake and Prosecco, as the subsequent denials and what that says about personal integrity. She comes to the interesting conclusion that it is only in more recent times that people have cared about this sort of thing in their politicians and that in previous periods of English history those setting the rules for others have got away with far worse.

As I've said before, the biggest problem for me is the hypocrisy. Johnson and co were placing severe restrictions on our own lives, which most of us did follow, despite not liking it. Do you think it was fun stuck at home during the sunniest May on record? Of course not. But we kept to the rules. They broke their own rules. "Do as I say, don't do as I do".

I don't care about criminal prosecutions for Johnson and co, but I do want to see them resign over this (and if I am honest, other matters too, though these are off-topic for this discussion). The sooner the country moves on from the Johnson years, which have been an international embarrassment, and disowns the decisions of the Johnson government, the better. So this means that if Johnson goes, the acolytes need to go too. No more Patel. Mo more Raab. No more Mogg. In the absence of an election or anyone better, we'll have to do with make do with someone like Hunt for a while, or even the second coming of May.

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I'd put it differently. Britain deserves a right-of-centre party that cares for the whole population, not just the parts of it that they think will make up a parliamentary majority. Up until 1979 the Conservatives could claim, with some amount of justification, to be that party. In the 1980s conservatism abandoned much of Britain outside the south-east, and in 2019 it pivoted to favouring some of those areas at the expense of the pro-Europe centre-right nationwide.

Depending on what it actually means, "levelling up" was the right thing to be doing. But even if we had no knowledge of Johnson's previous behaviour, his espousing of Brexit exposed him as someone who doesn't have Britain's best interest at heart, as well as inflicting a wound on the economy that made it that much harder to pay for spending in left-behind areas without alienating traditional Tory supporters. Some of us welcomed the intention but were always very doubtful about the ability or willingness to deliver.

One could argue that a return to the Tory Party of Major (but without the Black Wednesday cockup and hypocritical 'back to basics' nonsense!) is what the country needs. While I was desperate to get the Tories out after the disappointment of the 1992 election, in retrospect, the Major government was by far the most moderate Tory government of my lifetime. In fact, 1991 to 2009 was, relatively, an oasis of moderation in the otherwise hardline right-wing politics which have prevailed since 1979. True, we had some right-wingers in there, Lilley for example had a very tough, right-wing attitude towards benefits (and has now become a raving Brexiter with a house in France.... oh, the irony!), but we also had moderates like Major himself, Heseltine, Clarke, and so on.

As for the other Tory governments since 1979, well Thatcher didn't appear to care about the effects of the closure of industry on job losses, so hardly surprising she got hardly any support in ex-industrial areas. I'd say Thatcher appealed not just to the SE, but also affluent areas of the north, and rural areas too (small-c conservatism; rural areas were not especially harmed by Thatcher).

Cameron was perhaps Thatcher-lite, and you did get the same kind of divisions as Thatcher under Cameron (affluent but liberal SE seats such as Hove went for Cameron for one term, before flipping back). But then the Brexit train-wreck happened, the Tories started losing support in those affluent-but-liberal SE seats, and realised they needed to look elsewhere for support. Consequently, they bet - correctly - that the nationalism of Brexit might help win small-C conservative seats throughout the country, and as a result, the Tories have become the party of hardline British, and English, nationalism while maintaining their appeal to the economic right in the less cosmopolitan suburban southeastern seats. (They have recognised that they can afford to lose places like Hove and Canterbury as long as they hold both Esher and Hartlepool).

Going forward however I don't think all is so good for the Tories. People will start to realise that the Cult of Brexit will not solve their problems, and in fact make their life harder, for one thing. Also people will realise that the Tories are still a hardline economic-right-wing party with things like the National Insurance hike. Consequently I expect to see loss of support in all but the more small-C conservative red wall seats, and possible loss of support in further more-liberal southern seats too (think places like Winchester or Guildford).

So the best bet for the Tories I think (and I say this as someone who would strongly prefer Labour) is to become middle-of-the-road again, avoid overly harsh austerity policies, abandon the pretence that Brexit will improve our lot, build bridges with the EU and become politically more like the party of Major, albeit without the 'back to basics' nonsense. Labour could then become the party which is also fairly middle-of-the-road but unlike the Tories, adopts a more definite anti-austerity line. So we'd have a clear choice of two moderate parties with different viewpoints, which after the shanannigans of the past 6 years or so, is probably what we need.
 
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Typhoon

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I don't care about criminal prosecutions for Johnson and co, but I do want to see them resign over this (and if I am honest, other matters too, though these are off-topic for this discussion). The sooner the country moves on from the Johnson years, which have been an international embarrassment, and disowns the decisions of the Johnson government, the better. So this means that if Johnson goes, the acolytes need to go too. No more Patel. Mo more Raab. No more Mogg. In the absence of an election or anyone better, we'll have to do with make do with someone like Hunt for a while, or even the second coming of May.
I don't, I want to see him booted out by Conservative MPs because only then will I think that some - maybe quite a few - think that what happened was wrong, and are prepared to say that it was wrong*. If he resigns, he will just come up with some mealy mouthed excuse ('spend time with my young family', 'I got Brexit done, which was what I set out to do'). He might even get a (non) job on the international stage. I want it written in the history books that he was thrown out of office. I know some MPs will vote against him because he is seemingly unelectable, but I am prepared to believe that some cannot stomach his cult of the personality attitude any more.

* - I recognise that this is difficult. Johnson kicked or drove out many of the free thinking Tory MPs in his first term. He still expects total loyalty (removing the whip from Anne Marie Morris, for example), but does nothing to deserve it (the Paterson case). Like you, it is his hypocrisy that I cannot stand. He has had months to put the record straight - he can ask these individuals. As far as I can see Stratton walked and that is it - I think Barnard Castle was a convenient excuse for removing Cummings. Its as though he knows a lot of them are guilty and just hopes Sue Grey will miss quite a few (through lack of evidence). Conservative members must recognise that they deserve better, even if they don't think the country does. They need to support those who speak out, it is in the long term interest of their party and, ultimately, the country.
 

nw1

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Johnson's definitely finished.

In a way it's a shame. I had high hopes for a different form of conservatism to emerge. Something more Gaullist and dedicated to British prestige, rather than the old market/austerity based conservatism that we've endured for the past forty years.

I guess it's markets and austerity to look forward to now. Destroying everything about Britain for the sake of "the market".

The trouble with Johnsonist nationalism, in the form of Brexit, is that it puts restrictions on people's lives. Brexit causes issues with trade with continental Europe (leading to shortages of drivers and consequently shortages of products in the supermarkets) and also personal freedom (less easy for us to emigrate abroad as well as continental Europeans to live here).

You can still celebrate all that is good about Britain without having to resort to Brexit and the politics of Johnson. Indeed, Britain within the EU in the late 90s and early 00s had considerably more national character than the anodyne Brexit Britain we now live in. Try finding a rural pub in 1998. Pretty easy - I walked across the country that summer through deep rural countryside and there was almost always a pub to go to. Try it now in the same sort of areas - much harder. Likewise, music. Blur, Oasis, and many others - Britain was seen as an international centre of popular culture in the late 90s. Now?

Also I have visited many EU countries in the past 13 years or so, from Ireland to Greece by way of France, Germany, Spain and Austria, and the distinct national character of each is very evident - so it's not as if EU membership destroys national character.
 

yorksrob

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The trouble with Johnsonist nationalism, in the form of Brexit, is that it puts restrictions on people's lives. Brexit causes issues with trade with continental Europe (leading to shortages of drivers and consequently shortages of products in the supermarkets) and also personal freedom (less easy for us to emigrate abroad as well as continental Europeans to live here).

You can still celebrate all that is good about Britain without having to resort to Brexit and the politics of Johnson. Indeed, Britain within the EU in the late 90s and early 00s had considerably more national character than the anodyne Brexit Britain we now live in. Try finding a rural pub in 1998. Pretty easy - I walked across the country that summer through deep rural countryside and there was almost always a pub to go to. Try it now in the same sort of areas - much harder.

I don't think we should see conservatism entirely through the prism of Brexit. The example of the rural pub is an interesting one, however the decline set in long before Brexit. A Government truly interested in conserving the country's national heritage and character wouldn't have continually hiked beer duty and put pubs at a disadvantage to shop bought alcohol. It would have seen the cultural importance of pubs and done more to support them.
 

nw1

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I don't think we should see conservatism entirely through the prism of Brexit. The example of the rural pub is an interesting one, however the decline set in long before Brexit. A Government truly interested in conserving the country's national heritage and character wouldn't have continually hiked beer duty and put pubs at a disadvantage to shop bought alcohol. It would have seen the cultural importance of pubs and done more to support them.

True, I am not saying that Brexit closed the pubs. I am more saying that during the core years of the 'EU' period, we could still enjoy things that were typically British, more so than now; for me Brexit has been the defining thing of the politics of Johnson. Market forces are the biggest factor in the destruction of the 'good British' things in the past 10 or 20 years, but I'd have said a more left-wing party would be the solution, not something from the right and certainly not Johnson.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I don't, I want to see him booted out by Conservative MPs because only then will I think that some - maybe quite a few - think that what happened was wrong, and are prepared to say that it was wrong*. If he resigns, he will just come up with some mealy mouthed excuse ('spend time with my young family', 'I got Brexit done, which was what I set out to do'). He might even get a (non) job on the international stage. I want it written in the history books that he was thrown out of office. I know some MPs will vote against him because he is seemingly unelectable, but I am prepared to believe that some cannot stomach his cult of the personality attitude any more.

* - I recognise that this is difficult. Johnson kicked or drove out many of the free thinking Tory MPs in his first term. He still expects total loyalty (removing the whip from Anne Marie Morris, for example), but does nothing to deserve it (the Paterson case). Like you, it is his hypocrisy that I cannot stand. He has had months to put the record straight - he can ask these individuals. As far as I can see Stratton walked and that is it - I think Barnard Castle was a convenient excuse for removing Cummings. Its as though he knows a lot of them are guilty and just hopes Sue Grey will miss quite a few (through lack of evidence). Conservative members must recognise that they deserve better, even if they don't think the country does. They need to support those who speak out, it is in the long term interest of their party and, ultimately, the country.

Yes, thinking about it you make a good point. It would be better to see Johnson shamed by his own party than go of his own accord. As long as the party want him out.
 
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yorksrob

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True, I am not saying that Brexit closed the pubs. I am more saying that during the core years of the 'EU' period, we could still enjoy things that were typically British, more so than now; for me Brexit has been the defining thing of the politics of Johnson. Market forces are the biggest factor in the destruction of the 'good British' things in the past 10 or 20 years, but I'd have said a more left-wing party would be the solution, not something from the right and certainly not Johnson.

Theoretically, although New Labour was just as wedded to the mantra of market forces.
 

Bayum

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Janet Daley writing in today's Daily Telegraph suggests that the issue is not so much about cake and Prosecco, as the subsequent denials and what that says about personal integrity. She comes to the interesting conclusion that it is only in more recent times that people have cared about this sort of thing in their politicians and that in previous periods of English history those setting the rules for others have got away with far worse.
BJ has always had 0 personal integrity unless it involves him yet the buffoon was still voted in by the British electorate.
 

Busaholic

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Per the Max Hastings quote upthread, remember who the alternative was.
I'm now thinking that a Corbyn premiership would, indeed could, not have worked out as badly. Brexit would not have been embraced in the way that Johnson and co did, ensuring maximum problems between us and the E.U., particularly France. Johnson's utter hypocrisy on Ukraine, when the possible sanctions on the Russian kleptocracy that might work have been totally undermined by the turning of blind eyes to the Russian fortunes pouring into the London property market over the last twelve years, wouldn't have been replicated by Corbyn, etc etc. On covid, who knows?
 
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