When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

[Typhoon]

The instruction to staff was to pay loans without any checks apparently, the more given out the better as it would stimulate the economy, staff moved overnight from their normal work to the emergency give away.

In that case the instruction (from whoever) was wrong. The idea that by giving money to fraudsters (some of whom are undoubtedly based abroad) we boost our economy seems neither moral or economically sound. If they had wanted to boost the economy, they could have done what either Ireland or Northern Ireland did - by giving people a handout to spend on the high street. If they wanted to aid struggling businesses, I would have thought a minimal check that this was a viable business would have done. In one of the examples I included the business was set up purely to benefit from the loan. How can this be a bounce back? It doesn't exactly take a long time to do some cursory checking - I have done so with minimal resources (thanks, Mr Google), sitting at a £750 computer; I am sure that HMG have more resources than me!

At the end of the day, I don't think people who were working together anyway spending 20 minutes celebrating a birthday is particularly serious. But it was against the rules that the rest of us had been forced to follow, with the threat of police action if we broke them. It was against rules that we were repeatedly told were absolutely essential in order to prevent deaths. And it's just one of many occasions when rules were broken in Downing Street. If it had been a one-off, I doubt anyone would care.

They don't seem to realise that the 'drip, drip, drip' of stories is making it so much worse. It is almost like "Oh, no! They've found out about the 'Cheese and Wine'. For goodness sake no-one mention the quiz." "Oh, no! They've found out about the quiz. For goodness sake no-one mention 'Wine Time Fridays'"....

But a war did save Mrs Thatcher. So who knows?

A war that she could be said to have 'won' given that the Falklands returned to UK control. Does anyone really think that if Putin's army invaded Ukraine that a NATO force could see them off? One of two things would happen; either a hell of a lot of people will die, or we are seen as toothless and Johnson's and Truss's veiled threats were just a load of hot air. Johnson is no Margaret Thatcher!

I don't think Putin will invade but he will leave a sizeable presence in the area (waiting for the slightest opportunity) before turning his attention elsewhere.

 

[dosxuk]

Is it time to rename this thread to "When will it all go right..."?

 

[Typhoon]

Is it time to rename this thread to "When will it all go right..."?

No time soon!

The Metropolitan Police have launched an investigation into parties held in Downing Street during the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60123850

Looks like Cressida Dick has finally started listening to Ted Hastings.

 

[Iskra]

Will somebody be investigating the Met police for turning a blind eye and keeping quiet for so long?

 

[brad465]

Just been revealed that while the police investigation is ongoing, the Sue Gray report won't be published, which suggests this has been deliberately orchestrated to buy Johnson time. However, the SG investigation ongoing did not stop more leaks emerging, and now bullying/blackmail allegations have been surfacing, and could well continue to do so for as long as Johnson remains PM. This could do more long term damage to the overall Tory party, so may force the hand of backbenchers regardless of when the report and/or police investigation is completed.

 

[nw1]

Just been revealed that while the police investigation is ongoing, the Sue Gray report won't be published, which suggests this has been deliberately orchestrated to buy Johnson time. However, the SG investigation ongoing did not stop more leaks emerging, and now bullying/blackmail allegations have been surfacing, and could well continue to do so for as long as Johnson remains PM. This could do more long term damage to the overall Tory party, so may force the hand of backbenchers regardless of when the report and/or police investigation is completed.

It really does show what a rotten individual Johnson is. He's quite prepared to see everyone else go down to save himself. In my eyes, he really has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

The worst post-war leader by a country mile, and I say that as someone who was no fan of Thatcher.

 

[Typhoon]

It really does show what a rotten individual Johnson is. He's quite prepared to see everyone else go down to save himself. In my eyes, he really has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his life.

Apparently said by Jeremy Thorpe about Harold MacMillan ('Night of the Long Knives"), maybe David Davis will pick it up now.
From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18722428

 

[Busaholic]

'Saved her' was an exaggeration but it gave her a boost in the polls.

I do not intend to make light of the situation in Ukraine, which could end up being very serious. I am very concerned that our Prime Minister may make decisions that are not in the UK's best interests, in order to try to distract from his other problems and/or provide a boost to his popularity in the polls.

Thank you for your clarification. I share your concern that this Prime Minister might make decisions with at least half an eye on shoring his position up. Harry Houdini had nothing on this man.

 

[nw1]

Daily Mail this morning basically saying 'we've lost all sense of proportion' in investigating Johnson, just because he's not as bad as Putin.

Yeah, right. So only the most extremely bad politicians need to be investigated, and the merely bad ones should be left alone? You may as well say that no action should be taken against burglars, or, to bring things back to railways, fare-dodgers, because they're not as bad as murderers.

The Mail also seems to argue that Johnson will help solve the Russia-Ukraine conflict. Yeah right, we need a proper statesman, not just an egotistical talentless Trump tribute act.

It seems their love of the Cult of Brexit, which Johnson delivered, is more important than their claim to be the paper for the 'moral majority'.

 

[Spamcan81]

'Saved her' was an exaggeration but it gave her a boost in the polls.

I do not intend to make light of the situation in Ukraine, which could end up being very serious. I am very concerned that our Prime Minister may make decisions that are not in the UK's best interests, in order to try to distract from his other problems and/or provide a boost to his popularity in the polls.



My birthday is in March. I spent my 2020 birthday at home, alone, as the UK entered lockdown a few days earlier. I did not have a cake. People sang 'Happy Birthday' over Facetime. I said, 'never mind, there's always next year'.

I also spent my 2021 birthday at home, alone, as we were in lockdown at the time. I was able to celebrate this birthday a week late, when the rules changed to allow six people to meet outdoors. So my birthday 'party' was meeting five people in the garden in the cold and rain.

I could, of course, have broken the rules, but Government ministers had appeared on TV encouraging people to report neighbours to the police for rule breaking, so I did not think it was worth it. I did not realise that all I had to do was claim that it didn't happen, it was a work event, nobody told me it was against the rules.

At the end of the day, I don't think people who were working together anyway spending 20 minutes celebrating a birthday is particularly serious. But it was against the rules that the rest of us had been forced to follow, with the threat of police action if we broke them. It was against rules that we were repeatedly told were absolutely essential in order to prevent deaths. And it's just one of many occasions when rules were broken in Downing Street. If it had been a one-off, I doubt anyone would care.

I share your concerns. Johnson's aim is simply to save his own skin and everything else takes second place to that. All his decisions will be made to help him achieve that aim. Whether they are in our bests interests or not will not be of concern to him.

 

[dosxuk]

People may remember the case of the animal charity evacuated from Afganistan, and the PM's denial that he was involved in that case. He told reporters that he had "no influence on that particular case. Nor would that be right" back on August 26th.

Turns out, he did. Internal emails released this lunchtime by the Foreign Affairs Committee from the 25th August included

Equivalent charity Nowzad, run by an ex-Royal Marine, has received a lot of publicity and the PM has just authorised their staff and animals to be evacuated

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/43225/html/

 

[brad465]

People may remember the case of the animal charity evacuated from Afganistan, and the PM's denial that he was involved in that case. He told reporters that he had "no influence on that particular case. Nor would that be right" back on August 26th.

Turns out, he did. Internal emails released this lunchtime by the Foreign Affairs Committee from the 25th August included

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/43225/html/

Yes this emphasises that someone/some group has a vendetta against Johnson to the point of wanting to leak a long run of scandals that implicates him. Partygate is the biggest source, but it's now expanded to bullying/blackmail, and in this case, his role in the Afghanistan evacuation. If the Tory party really want these leaks to stop, they'll have to force Johnson out.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ignore what I just posted before this comment- I misread something!

In terms of Boris, surely it would have been better if he just came out and admitted that he has lied on these things? Rather than continuing to lie and deny things and then the public be shown proof that actually he did do x and then lied to cover it up. It just looks so much worse the denial followed by the evidence!

 

[davetheguard]

Daily Mail this morning basically saying 'we've lost all sense of proportion' in investigating Johnson, just because he's not as bad as Putin.

Yeah, right. So only the most extremely bad politicians need to be investigated, and the merely bad ones should be left alone? You may as well say that no action should be taken against burglars, or, to bring things back to railways, fare-dodgers, because they're not as bad as murderers.

The Mail also seems to argue that Johnson will help solve the Russia-Ukraine conflict. Yeah right, we need a proper statesman, not just an egotistical talentless Trump tribute act.

It seems their love of the Cult of Brexit, which Johnson delivered, is more important than their claim to be the paper for the 'moral majority'.

I think you may be able to sum it by saying that the Conservative party (and thus the Daily Mail) is not quite ready to get rid of Johnson. They know that there's more bad news to come with their pet project, with lorry queues building in Dover & Calais after the traditional New Year quiet spell in trade.

If he's kept on a bit longer, that'll mean he's the one who will get the blame for it, leaving the new PM with less baggage to start their leadership with.

 

[DarloRich]

Rather than continuing to lie and deny things and then the public be shown proof that actually he did do x and then lied to cover it up. It just looks so much worse the denial followed by the evidence!

His calculation is that enough people will buy the lies regardless of the "proof".

 

[DanNCL]

Just about everything Boris Johnson says is a lie. Today he said in the House of Commons that he wouldn’t resign. Either for the first (and probably last) time he’s telling the truth, or he’s preparing to resign

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes this emphasises that someone/some group has a vendetta against Johnson to the point of wanting to leak a long run of scandals that implicates him. Partygate is the biggest source, but it's now expanded to bullying/blackmail, and in this case, his role in the Afghanistan evacuation. If the Tory party really want these leaks to stop, they'll have to force Johnson out.

Maybe he should just stop lying?

 

[brad465]

Maybe he should just stop lying?

Somehow I don't see that happening without some duct tape

 

[Gloster]

Maybe he should just stop lying?

But he doesn’t lie: lying requires him to say something that he knows is not true. He just says things without any consideration as to whether they are true or not: his only consideration is whether they will further his ambition, get him out of a hole, be of some advantage, etc. Accuracy and truth never come into his calculations or thoughts, before, during or after.

 

[Busaholic]

I think you may be able to sum it by saying that the Conservative party (and thus the Daily Mail) is not quite ready to get rid of Johnson.

With Jacob Rees-Mogg arguing that a new Prime Minister would need to call a General Election to get legitimacy, they're aware that they could well lose it, so will leave it as long as possible.

 

[Gloster]

With Jacob Rees-Mogg arguing that a new Prime Minister would need to call a General Election to get legitimacy, they're aware that they could well lose it, so will leave it as long as possible.

I think JR-M is trying to frighten backbenchers into supporting Johnson, using the line, ’If we have to call an election in the current political climate because you have dumped Johnson, a lot of you will lose your seats, Do you want that?’ It is not normal practice in this country to call elections in such situations, but he claims that we have moved towards a more presidential-style system. It still isn’t a valid argument: Presidents can be replaced by Vice-Presidents. (Or perhaps that is how he sees himself and what he is angling for.)

 

[Strathclyder]

I think JR-M is trying to frighten backbenchers into supporting Johnson, using the line, ’If we have to call an election in the current political climate because you have dumped Johnson, a lot of you will lose your seats, Do you want that?’ It is not normal practice in this country to call elections in such situations, but he claims that we have moved towards a more presidential-style system. It still isn’t a valid argument: Presidents can be replaced by Vice-Presidents. (Or perhaps that is how he sees himself and what he is angling for.)

Please, there's enough nightmare fuel out there without that being added to the concoction lol

 

[brad465]

Tomorrow's papers are really pushing a campaign to try and scrap/delay the NI tax hike; the Mail have been doing it most, but now The Telegraph also seem to be pushing it:

Tomorrow's Papers Today - UK Front Pages - Latest Newspaper Headlines

All of UK's Tomorrow's Front Pages ✅ Updated Daily between 7PM - 11pm ✅ The Mail, Express, Times, Guardian and many more Proudly supporting #buyapaper

www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk

I'm confident that this tax rise won't happen, not just because of the very clear campaign against it by key Tory allies in the media and within the party itself, but I would not be surprised if Johnson tries to get rid of it in an attempt to save face (or if he leaves office before it's ditched his successor will ditch it).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Tomorrow's papers are really pushing a campaign to try and scrap/delay the NI tax hike; the Mail have been doing it most, but now The Telegraph also seem to be pushing it:

Tomorrow's Papers Today - UK Front Pages - Latest Newspaper Headlines

All of UK's Tomorrow's Front Pages ✅ Updated Daily between 7PM - 11pm ✅ The Mail, Express, Times, Guardian and many more Proudly supporting #buyapaper

www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk

View attachment 109340View attachment 109341

I'm confident that this tax rise won't happen, not just because of the very clear campaign against it by key Tory allies in the media and within the party itself, but I would not be surprised if Johnson tries to get rid of it in an attempt to save face (or if he leaves office before it's ditched his successor will ditch it).

How have the Daily Mirror and the Guardian been approaching this particular subject?

 

[nw1]

I think JR-M is trying to frighten backbenchers into supporting Johnson, using the line, ’If we have to call an election in the current political climate because you have dumped Johnson, a lot of you will lose your seats, Do you want that?’ It is not normal practice in this country to call elections in such situations, but he claims that we have moved towards a more presidential-style system. It still isn’t a valid argument: Presidents can be replaced by Vice-Presidents. (Or perhaps that is how he sees himself and what he is angling for.)

Though things are only going to get worse for the Tories with Johnson as PM. The post-Covid austerity is likely to make many people's lives harder, and people will I suspect primarily blame the incumbents.

Best chance for the Tories (and I say this as a lifelong anti-Tory, never more so than since 2016) is to ditch Johnson now, and replace him with a centre-right 'One Nation' type (if there are any left). Such a person might have the best chance (amongst Tories) of easing the pain of the coming couple of years (being careful not to implement overly-damaging cuts and appreciating that many people will be struggling financially), as well as attempting to build bridges with the EU (as the effects of Brexit are only exacerbating an already-bad situation).

(Of course, just as a disclaimer, my own personal preference would be an election in mid-spring (around April) with Johnson still as PM on the assumption that he'd lose, but if there is to be no imminent election, Johnson must absolutely go.)

 

[Typhoon]

Though things are only going to get worse with Johnson as PM. The post-Covid austerity is likely to make many people's lives harder, and people will I suspect primarily blame the incumbents.

Best chance for the Tories (and I say this as a lifelong anti-Tory, never more so than since 2016) is to ditch Johnson now, replace him with a centre-right 'One Nation' type (if there are any left) who might have the best chance of easing the pain of the coming couple of years (being careful not to implement overly-damaging cuts and appreciating that many people will be struggling financially) and attempting to build bridges with the EU (as the effects of Brexit are only exacerbating an already-bad situation).

Now? I would have thought it best until all the mud (particularly energy prices, current NHS problems with full hospitals) can be thrown at Johnson then, the minute there is a glimmer of light, is the time to ditch him.

New leader, new start (a non party goer).

'One Nation' type - I thought Johnson professed to be a 'One Nation' Tory, although, from where I'm sitting, he seems like a 'One Person' Tory. That person being Johnson himself.

 

[nw1]

Tomorrow's papers are really pushing a campaign to try and scrap/delay the NI tax hike; the Mail have been doing it most, but now The Telegraph also seem to be pushing it:

Tomorrow's Papers Today - UK Front Pages - Latest Newspaper Headlines

All of UK's Tomorrow's Front Pages ✅ Updated Daily between 7PM - 11pm ✅ The Mail, Express, Times, Guardian and many more Proudly supporting #buyapaper

www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk

View attachment 109340View attachment 109341

I'm confident that this tax rise won't happen, not just because of the very clear campaign against it by key Tory allies in the media and within the party itself, but I would not be surprised if Johnson tries to get rid of it in an attempt to save face (or if he leaves office before it's ditched his successor will ditch it).

I note the Mail is blathering on about "families" as they always do, as if those of us who don't have children, or have children who have moved away, don't count. We'll still have to pay this extra National Insurance, we don't get a waiver!

 

[birchesgreen]

"Hard working families" isn't it? Everyone is subhuman scum.

 

[GusB]

How have the Daily Mirror and the Guardian been approaching this particular subject?

I presume that you have access to the same internet that the rest of us do.

www.mirror.co.uk and theguardian.com/uk are the web addresses that you require.

 

[nw1]

Now? I would have thought it best until all the mud (particularly energy prices, current NHS problems with full hospitals) can be thrown at Johnson then, the minute there is a glimmer of light, is the time to ditch him.

Perhaps, though as I said, I think there will be problems in the medium term at least. Maybe right now isn't such a good time (with Partygate in the headlines so much) but I think it'll have to be soon (spring); in particular I suspect next autumn and winter will be the time frame the post-Covid austerity measures and energy price increases will really bite (remembering energy usage in the spring and summer is significantly lower than in autumn and winter) so that will not be a good time.

On the other hand a spring replacement of Johnson could see a new PM implement policies to mitigate the austerity.

New leader, new start (a non party goer).

'One Nation' type - I thought Johnson professed to be a 'One Nation' Tory, although, from where I'm sitting, he seems like a 'One Person' Tory. That person being Johnson himself.

I don't think an implementor of Hard Brexit and the accompanying restrictions on immigration and trade can be considered a 'One Nation' type. Though you're right, 'One Person' sums him up. He doesn't believe in anything. He's not a Remainer, Brexiter, anti-lockdowner, pro-lockdowner, left-wing Tory, right-wing Tory or anything else. He believes in Boris Johnson. No more, no less.