Why do UK bus operators not use basic measures used everywhere else to speed the service?

[johncrossley]

Oh, I don't know. What would Go Ahead, Arriva or Stagecoach know about how London's buses run?

So it isn't great that they don't appear to use their experience of running London's buses to improve dwell times elsewhere. Even experience in regions outside London doesn't spread to the rest of the country. For example, as I mentioned earlier, Brighton and Crawley allow single tickets to be used for connecting buses (when using the app) but, unless I've missed it, not elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Travelling on buses in London is a painfully slow, jerky and tedious process, probably not to be sampled too much if you want an enjoyable trip.

However, back to the thread, what they do is spend almost no time at stops due to the dual-door layout (triple door in the case of Bozza buses and the old bendies which were even better) and because payment doesn't require stopping and having a chat, you just tap your card on the way past. I have used London buses across the introduction of Oyster, and it made a marked difference, and that was even compared to flat cash fares where you didn't need to stop for a chat.

 

[nw1]

Posts #1 - #4 originally in this thread.



No commercial bus company cares about dwell times, as if they did they would be moving more ticketing off bus in a manner that speeds things up, introducing tap on/off contactless and ordering buses with rear exit doors. They are mostly not doing any of those things, and as such we can conclude they are quite happy with PVRs* being higher than necessary and the passenger service being slower than it could be.

* Peak Vehicle Requirement

As someone who reasonably regularly relies on buses to reach work for 0900, I think the peak vehicle requirement is actually lower than it should be, from a public service perspective. The problem is that the routes I use tend not to introduce extra vehicles in the peak, meaning that the peak frequency goes down compared to the off-peak due to the longer journey times required in the peak (e.g. a 15-min off-peak pattern has gaps of around 20 or 25 mins in the peak, increasing to 30 mins in arrivals at the centre of town). When you have a choice of a bus getting you into work at 0835 and another at 0905, and which are unreliable due to originating an hour's journey away, the service isn't what it could be.

If anything (and I recognise this would need funding as it couldn't be done purely commercially by the bus company) they should add extra vehicles during the peak to at least allow the off-peak frequency to be maintained, and more short workings to allow more reliable journeys for those who live close to the town or city centre.

 

[johncrossley]

However, back to the thread, what they do is spend almost no time at stops due to the dual-door layout (triple door in the case of Bozza buses and the old bendies which were even better) and because payment doesn't require stopping and having a chat, you just tap your card on the way past. I have used London buses across the introduction of Oyster, and it made a marked difference, and that was even compared to flat cash fares where you didn't need to stop for a chat.

For someone like me who is used to riding London buses regularly, you really notice how slow it is when you travel on buses in other towns where passengers have conversations with the driver. Now that you have app tickets etc. it isn't as bad as it used to be but even when a lot of passengers use apps it still seems slow when you are used to the speed of Oyster/contactless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For someone like me who is used to riding London buses regularly, you really notice how slow it is when you travel on buses in other towns where passengers have conversations with the driver. Now that you have app tickets etc. it isn't as bad as it used to be but even when a lot of passengers use apps it still seems slow when you are used to the speed of Oyster/contactless.

Exactly. London proves it can be done, and it's frustrating that it isn't elsewhere.

 

[johncrossley]

As someone who reasonably regularly relies on buses to reach work for 0900, I think the peak vehicle requirement is actually lower than it should be, from a public service perspective. The problem is that the routes I use tend not to introduce extra vehicles in the peak, meaning that the peak frequency goes down compared to the off-peak. When you have a choice of a bus getting you into work at 0835 and another at 0905, and which are unreliable due to originating an hour's journey away, the service isn't what it could be.

If anything (and I recognise this would need funding as it couldn't be done purely commercially) they should add extra vehicles during the peak to at least allow the off-peak frequency to be maintained, and more short workings to allow more reliable journeys for those who live close to the town/city centre.

In many areas, commuters are no longer a big market. That has been largely lost to the car. Combined with the additional expense of running buses in peak hours (that is, delays caused by congestion), there is even less reason for bus operators to run buses in peak times

 

[RT4038]

So it isn't great that they don't appear to use their experience of running London's buses to improve dwell times elsewhere. Even experience in regions outside London doesn't spread to the rest of the country. For example, as I mentioned earlier, Brighton and Crawley allow single tickets to be used for connecting buses (when using the app) but, unless I've missed it, not elsewhere.

In some places they are getting close to it, with Dayriders being the de facto return ticket, thus allowing interchange without additional cost. Tap on-Tap off with daily cap will improve the situation further. Bus companies are conservative and fear revenue loss - your ticketing plans are not being underwritten with your money.

 

[johncrossley]

In some places they are getting close to it, with Dayriders being the de facto return ticket, thus allowing interchange without additional cost. Tap on-Tap off with daily cap will improve the situation further. Bus companies are conservative and fear revenue loss - your ticketing plans are not being underwritten with your money.

Day tickets have been the de facto return ticket for decades now. That's no good for someone who doesn't need to return. For example, someone who gets a lift in one direction, or someone getting the train somewhere and coming back another day.

 

[nw1]

In many areas, commuters are no longer a big market. That has been largely lost to the car. Combined with the additional expense of running buses in peak hours (that is, delays caused by congestion), there is even less reason for bus operators to run buses in peak times

I'm not sure it's a good idea to assume temporary effects due to Covid are going to be with us forever though. (And as it happens, right now, the peak buses still look busy to me).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Depends on their structure. A lot of large companies are siloed to the extent that it might as well be on another planet.

Absolutely not true. You think that bus company managers don't know how London's buses work, let alone the senior management who are sitting with their managers to go through the financials, investment plans, vehicle specs etc?

They know but the rules in London are different, or were before the taps began to be turned off.

 

[johncrossley]

I'm not sure it's a good idea to assume temporary effects due to Covid are going to be with us forever though. (And as it happens, right now, the peak buses still look busy to me).

I'm talking about pre-Covid. Commuters are typically in a rush and affluent, compared to your off-peak traveller, meaning that deregulated buses are not very attractive to them, by and large. In London and in other countries, yes a lot of commuters still use buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm talking about pre-Covid. Commuters are typically in a rush and affluent, compared to your off-peak traveller, meaning that deregulated buses are not very attractive to them, by and large. In London and in other countries, yes a lot of commuters still use buses.

And in the UK

What you have are peak time travellers who are paying the bulk of the fares, and then the 0930 surge of twirlies. My local routes were, prior to Covid, busy at peak times. As the poster that you responded to said, what happens is that you have considerable uplifts in peak time journey times and operators are simply widening headways to avoid putting in additional vehicles rather than having peak hour extras.

Perhaps conversely to these bus company managers, perhaps you need to visit the provinces and see what happens there? The commuters may not be bowler hatted nor affluent but they are most certainly commuting for work.

 

[johncrossley]

And in the UK

What you have are peak time travellers who are paying the bulk of the fares, and then the 0930 surge of twirlies. My local routes were, prior to Covid, busy at peak times. As the poster that you responded to said, what happens is that you have considerable uplifts in peak time journey times and operators are simply widening headways to avoid putting in additional vehicles rather than having peak hour extras.

Perhaps conversely to these bus company managers, perhaps you need to visit the provinces and see what happens there? The commuters may not be bowler hatted nor affluent but they are most certainly commuting for work.

But bus usage statistics show a very low level of bus usage in many, if not most, areas outside London, hence the desire for change. Only 7% used buses to go to work in Great Britain in 2018. We often hear how buses are much more heavily used than trains, hence why buses should be given more money, but for commuting the rail proportion is higher. That suggests buses do better than rail for other trip purposes.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870647/tsgb-2019.pdf

Usual method of travel to work, Great Britain, 2018
Car 68%
Rail 10%
Walk 10%
Bus 7%
Other 5%

 

[RT4038]

Perhaps conversely to these bus company managers, perhaps you need to visit the provinces and see what happens there? The commuters may not be bowler hatted nor affluent but they are most certainly commuting for work.

Well said. Often having really awful journeys to out of town industrial estates, long walks, catching two buses with long waiting times in between, arriving long before work and waiting again afterwards. Why? because there is little or no funding in the provinces.

(I was recently dealing with a guy working 22h00-06h00 at one of these places - he was catching the last bus from town on a commercial route at 19h30 to a nearby estate and walking over the fast dual carriageway. The first bus home in the morning leaves at 07h10....). But we'll spend millions subsidising a nearby branch line carrying an average of less than a busload per train!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well said. Often having really awful journeys to out of town industrial estates, long walks, catching two buses with long waiting times in between, arriving long before work and waiting again afterwards. Why? because there is little or no funding in the provinces.

The main reason why you get long waiting times between routes is simply because bus companies can't be bothered timetabling them to connect. In many cases, where you have two routes operated on a self contained basis from one another, shifting the times of one of them slightly would allow for better connections and would cost nowt.

But ultra-conservative bus companies prefer to operate a collection of separate routes than to bother building a true network.

To be fair, the railway mostly can't be bothered either. It's a UK attitude problem.

 

[GusB]

However, back to the thread, what they do is spend almost no time at stops due to the dual-door layout (triple door in the case of Bozza buses and the old bendies which were even better) and because payment doesn't require stopping and having a chat, you just tap your card on the way past. I have used London buses across the introduction of Oyster, and it made a marked difference, and that was even compared to flat cash fares where you didn't need to stop for a chat.

I do wish you'd get over this obsession with stopping to have a chat. It's just nonsense. When I lived in city environments, the usual conversation was "80p please" or "Acme Street please", as the customer dumped their cash in the hopper and collected their ticket on the way to their seat. Some people even managed to squeeze in a quick "Good morning" to the driver without causing undue delays, but that idea seems to horrify you!

Yes, occasionally you will get a passenger who is a bit slow, or doesn't know where they're going, but you will never eliminate this as long as passengers are human beings, regardless of the technology that's in place for fare collection.

I think you perhaps need to learn to be a little more patient in your day-to-day activities and accept that not every human is a super-efficient machine that knows how everything works in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wish you'd get over this obsession with stopping to have a chat. It's just nonsense. When I lived in city environments, the usual conversation was "80p please" or "Acme Street please", as the customer dumped their cash in the hopper and collected their ticket on the way to their seat. Some people even managed to squeeze in a quick "Good morning" to the driver without causing undue delays, but that idea seems to horrify you!

I was slightly exaggerating. But in London people board and pay their fare without breaking stride, meaning faster operation. You can say hello to the driver as you pass if you want, though admittedly with the "Routemaster culture" still being there you'll mostly just get a grunt if you do.

Yes, occasionally you will get a passenger who is a bit slow, or doesn't know where they're going, but you will never eliminate this as long as passengers are human beings, regardless of the technology that's in place for fare collection.

You'll never eliminate it entirely, but you can certainly speed the routine stuff, as London does. I'd accept it if there was nowhere in the world doing better, but there is - and it's in the UK, too.

I think you perhaps need to learn to be a little more patient in your day-to-day activities and accept that not every human is a super-efficient machine that knows how everything works in advance.

Or you design systems for maximum simplicity and minimum friction. That's what London has done. The fact that London demonstrates it being done is why it serves to frustrate. If things are intuitive and smooth, you don't need help with them.

Even with a classic pay-the-driver cash fare, showing the fares on the bus stops would help, as then those who have time to prepare the right change before the bus arrives sometimes do. Not everyone does, and many know it anyway, but some people will, and every 10 seconds saved adds up. As a major supermarket says, every little helps.

And if you want to attract people out of cars or off bicycles (I say the latter slightly facetiously, not least because cycling is to be encouraged, but in most cities bus operation is slower than a competent cyclist will achieve on the same route) you need to compete on journey time. There is just no chance otherwise. That means every second counts.

 

[nw1]

And in the UK

What you have are peak time travellers who are paying the bulk of the fares, and then the 0930 surge of twirlies. My local routes were, prior to Covid, busy at peak times. As the poster that you responded to said, what happens is that you have considerable uplifts in peak time journey times and operators are simply widening headways to avoid putting in additional vehicles rather than having peak hour extras.

Perhaps conversely to these bus company managers, perhaps you need to visit the provinces and see what happens there? The commuters may not be bowler hatted nor affluent but they are most certainly commuting for work.

Yes, in my experience ('provincial' Southern England) there is significant work commuting, granted by non-suit-wearers but still commuters.

I do perfectly understand that a commercial bus company is not going to want to risk its profits by inserting additional vehicles to maintain the off-peak frequency in the peak. However it's really in that case up to the government to provide the funding.

One thing they could do in the evening peak is use school journey vehicles on outbound commuter routes. With the school peak around 1500-1630 but the work peak more like 1700-1830, this could work. Sadly in the morning, where people are more in a rush to get somewhere than in the evening, it doesn't work out as the school and work peaks are both in the same 0800-0900 hour.

 

[RT4038]

The main reason why you get long waiting times between routes is simply because bus companies can't be bothered timetabling them to connect. In many cases, where you have two routes operated on a self contained basis from one another, shifting the times of one of them slightly would allow for better connections and would cost nowt.

But ultra-conservative bus companies prefer to operate a collection of separate routes than to bother building a true network.

To be fair, the railway mostly can't be bothered either. It's a UK attitude problem.

I think you are being a little hasty at slagging off others.

As a simplistic example. You have two routes, which justify a 30 minute frequency, travelling from suburb to suburb crossing the town centre where you want them to connect. Due to the geography of the town, two of the routes are 14 minutes journey from the town to the suburb, one is 17 minutes and the other 11 minutes. By connecting the two 14 minute journeys together as one route, and the 17 and 11 minutes together as one route, the two cross town routes can be operated with 4 buses. However, whilst the two routes can be timed to make an immediate connection in one direction, they then will most definitely not in the other. No amount of bothering will make this work. And an immediate connection will be quite risky in this town, due to the historic Westgate that needs to be negotiated, and the level crossing, and the immediate connection in one direction means a two bus bay by the busy market, rather than only one.

Of course you could wastefully employ another vehicle or two to increase layovers, extend routes needlessly to fit the timetable etc, but this will instantly plunge your network into a loss, as the value of the connecting passengers and/or any on the extension will not immediately (if ever) cover its cost. This is why bus companies don't do it, apart from the need of bus stop or stand capacity to accommodate all these connecting buses there at once, which is often not available or be costly in provision.

You are right though in that it is a UK attitude problem, of not providing funding and infrastructure for such practices.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

As an outsider, it's always fascinating for me to see, that most British buses only have one door. I have found buses tedious to use, when I visited the UK, for that reason (but also ticketing in general, but that's for another thread).

Contrast this to single-deck non-bendy buses in Prague, which have four doors. On the line that I mostly travelled on, most people didn't buy tickets at the driver, so even though it was a heavily-used route (two routes actually, both every 6 minutes), dwell times were very short. Doors open, quick getting off and on, doors close and off the bus went.

Now, four doors is maybe a bit too much for just any bus, but I find two doors should be the standard, with three doors on busier routes (if it's not a bendy bus or doubledecker). Single door doubledeckers are even more weird to me, since normal bendy buses (as the equivalent of the "larger bus" type) here in Germany always have three doors, sometimes even four.

Regarding some of the criticisms mentioned before, at least on bendy buses, the third (and fourth if existant) door is closed automatically, so the driver doesn't have to do that themself. Also, even while drivers sell tickets, many people have passes anyway, and tickets are checked by ticket controllers, so drivers don't (have to) deal with every single passenger's ticket in detail.

Of course that's just my opinion, and maybe there are other factors I didn't consider that explain why British buses have so few doors.

SOR NB 12 four-door bus of Veolia Praha at Depo Hostivař bus station in 2012. Image credit: ŠJů, published under the CC BY-SA 3.0 license at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fileepo_Hostivař,_autobus_Veolia_Transport_Praha_-_1253.jpg

 

[RT4038]

As an outsider, it's always fascinating for me to see, that most British buses only have one door. I have found buses tedious to use, when I visited the UK, for that reason (but also ticketing in general, but that's for another thread).

Contrast this to single-deck non-bendy buses in Prague, which have four doors. On the line that I mostly travelled on, most people didn't buy tickets at the driver, so even though it was a heavily-used route (two routes actually, both every 6 minutes), dwell times were very short. Doors open, quick getting off and on, doors close and off the bus went.

Now, four doors is maybe a bit too much for just any bus, but I find two doors should be the standard, with three doors on busier routes (if it's not a bendy bus or doubledecker). Single door doubledeckers are even more weird to me, since normal bendy buses (as the equivalent of the "larger bus" type) here in Germany always have three doors, sometimes even four.

Regarding some of the criticisms mentioned before, at least on bendy buses, the third (and fourth if existant) door is closed automatically, so the driver doesn't have to do that themself. Also, even while drivers sell tickets, many people have passes anyway, and tickets are checked by ticket controllers, so drivers don't (have to) deal with every single passenger's ticket in detail.

Of course that's just my opinion, and maybe there are other factors I didn't consider that explain why British buses have so few doors.

SOR NB 12 four-door bus of Veolia Praha at Depo Hostivař bus station in 2012. Image credit: ŠJů, published under the CC BY-SA 3.0 license at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fileepo_Hostivař,_autobus_Veolia_Transport_Praha_-_1253.jpg

For various cultural reasons, the UK wouldn't do 'ticket-controllers' very well at all, resulting in large scale fare evasion

 

[johncrossley]

For various cultural reasons, the UK wouldn't do 'ticket-controllers' very well at all, resulting in large scale fare evasion

Many trams in Britain use that system, even in high crime areas like the notorious Oldham loop line. In Nottingham they even replaced conductors with machines quite recently.

 

[richw]

I do wish you'd get over this obsession with stopping to have a chat. It's just nonsense. When I lived in city environments, the usual conversation was "80p please" or "Acme Street please", as the customer dumped their cash in the hopper and collected their ticket on the way to their seat. Some people even managed to squeeze in a quick "Good morning" to the driver without causing undue delays, but that idea seems to horrify you!

on rural journeys especially we’ve some elderly isolated passengers, where the driver can be their only social contact for days at a time. Having a chat with that passenger is an essential part of the service.
Most of us will take no issue delaying a bus for a minute or two to welfare check up on this type of passenger (we know roughly who they are on rural runs)

 

[nw1]

You are right though in that it is a UK attitude problem, of not providing funding and infrastructure for such practices.

Indeed, that's the problem. You can't expect private companies to risk their profits in providing the extra vehicles for good connections, but you can, perhaps, expect government to provide the funding.

 

[RT4038]

Indeed, that's the problem. You can't expect private companies to risk their profits in providing the extra vehicles for good connections, but you can, perhaps, expect government to provide the funding.

Unfortunately this boat sailed in the late 60s/70s and events since mean that getting the boat back anywhere near the harbour is very expensive indeed.

 

[tbtc]

The main reason why you get long waiting times between routes is simply because bus companies can't be bothered timetabling them to connect. In many cases, where you have two routes operated on a self contained basis from one another, shifting the times of one of them slightly would allow for better connections and would cost nowt

There seems to be a habit here, where you dismiss anyone not designing everything as perfectly as your utopia ideals as someone who "can't be bothered" to fix the problem, or is completely unaware of it (i.e. the idea that the "London" and "Provincial" arms of corporate groups have no concept of how the other does things)

Maybe companies are aware of these "problems" but realise that "solutions would come at too much opportunity cost (e.g. you could amend as service to connect with another, but that may mean no longer co-ordinating with another service, or adding an extra vehicle/ driver to the rotas)?

There's a lot of industry professionals on here, but instead of trying to understand the problems act they encounter (and the trade offs/ balances), we just get a simplistic "how hard can it be" approach

 

[richw]

There seems to be a habit here, where you dismiss anyone not designing everything as perfectly as your utopia ideals as someone who "can't be bothered" to fix the problem, or is completely unaware of it (i.e. the idea that the "London" and "Provincial" arms of corporate groups have no concept of how the other does things)

Maybe companies are aware of these "problems" but realise that "solutions would come at too much opportunity cost (e.g. you could amend as service to connect with another, but that may mean no longer co-ordinating with another service, or adding an extra vehicle/ driver to the rotas)?

There's a lot of industry professionals on here, but instead of trying to understand the problems act they encounter (and the trade offs/ balances), we just get a simplistic "how hard can it be" approach

The industry is trying to move to a better customer service standard, whereas the poster you’re replying too wants to worsen customer service

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a lot of industry professionals on here, but instead of trying to understand the problems act they encounter (and the trade offs/ balances), we just get a simplistic "how hard can it be" approach

Because English exceptionalism. These things are done better all over the world. It is pretty much only English provincial operations that are different. That says a lot to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==

The industry is trying to move to a better customer service standard, whereas the poster you’re replying too wants to worsen customer service

The best way to improve customer service in the industry is to make use of the service seamless, easy and fast. Having to talk to someone about a complaint or because the system is confusing is a failure, and that failure becomes serious if it delays other passengers while they are doing so.

Again, English exceptionalism.

The most important thing about transport is (punctual and reliable) journey time - keep the vehicles moving. There's no chance of taking people out of cars if that isn't prioritised.

I'd accept these comments if it wasn't done better in so many other countries - and indeed in the UK too (London). That it is done better in so many places (hugely more places than the English provinces) tells me clearly who is getting it wrong.

 

[johncrossley]

The mere fact that this thread exists is a worry. I'd be surprised if you went onto a thread on a forum based in another country and see people complaining about their boarding systems and people saying, "I wish we had single door buses in our big cities with drivers selling a lot of tickets!" The various excuses/reasons used to defend slow boarding must seem amazing to people from abroad reading this! We aren't all as crazy as it may seem! Some of us also think it is nonsense.

 

[richw]

Having to talk to someone about a complaint or because the system is confusing is a failure, and that failure becomes serious if it delays other passengers while they are doing so.

You really don’t have a clue! If you are a bus driver and this is your experience then there’s issues with your employer.
The only conversations I have with my passengers are pleasant friendly chats. Very rarely have to field a complaint or confused passenger