Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[reddragon]

Hah, they’re nowhere near. 18 months ago I bought a then 1-year-old petrol Toyota Yaris for £12k. Looking at Autotrader today, the best I could manage for that kind of money would be a 5-year-old Nissan Leaf. There is still a considerable premium for an electric car of a comparable size to a petrol one.

A 1 year old Yaris is now £16-18k

 

[paul1609]

PHEVs are great for reducing particulate pollution in cities, which is the most urgent need. They do little for carbon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2022 ==



With hotels, where you stay all night and are not going to want to unpluug at 3am, it would make more sense to provide a larger number of 13A bays rather than a smaller number of fast chargers. Same with workplace car parks. A smaller number of fast chargers is more appropriate for places you stay for a short time like supermarkets or motorway services. It is not particularly expensive to provide a 13A charger per parking bay, just as a power socket is provided at each pair of seats on most trains now.

Travelodge rooms are heated with individual electric panel heaters, so if they sorted that out and replaced it with something more efficient, then they might not even need an upgraded supply to do that.

Given that Travelodge charge for wifi, I don't doubt they will charge for charging (!) in due course too. On the other hand, at a hotel at a motorway service area, this makes less sense, as one cannot (or at least would be very unlikely to) practically arrive at most sites by a mode other than a private motor vehicle.

Cost of operation is also a factor. Panel heaters cost a fortune to run.

The Travelodge that I was in last night, Newcastle Cobalt had combined heating and a air conditioning units by Samsung. Given the occupancy of their hotel rooms I doubt that panel heaters are that expensive to run.
I generally get in for an hour in the afternoon, then go for something to eat then go to bed. I rarely turn the heating tv or kettle on. Are there people that actually go to stay in the hotel room on an industrial estate or service station on the edge of town as an attraction in its own right?

 

[AM9]

Cost of operation is also a factor. Panel heaters cost a fortune to run.

For 1kWH used you get 1kWH of energy, i.e. that's 100% efficency. Unless the hotel has a perpetual wind turbine, has a river running through it grounds or has day/night time PV panels, - to use anything else requires creating carbon dioxide.
Also, overheated hotel rooms are generally more of a problem, so giving clients the ability to control the heating saves energy. Also panel heaters are probably the most reliable form of heating and the impact of a failure is limited to just one room. Sounds like the best deal to an organisation like a chain hotel.

 

[reddragon]

Im staying in a New Travelodge in Newcastle atm, it has 4 electric chargers in a car park of around 100 cars. Theres the same 4 cars plugged in as when I arrived at 5pm yesterday. Not sure what no5 etc do.
When all cars are EVs will I receive a discount for arriving by bus?

Holiday Inn Jesmond has 5x chargers T2 7kw and 1x 43kw, no info on costs

 

[AM9]

That would be another big inconvenience!

Not half as inconvenient as it would be for the driver that can't charge their car because there's a car sitting on one not using it. Ideally, the 'penalty' for overstaying at the charger should be considered in the same light as an ICV taking up the parking space by a charger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, but how much are they on if their modules are decently insulated? I can't remember a hotel ever being too cold and switching the heating on.

You can't have stayed in many Travelodges!

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For 1kWH used you get 1kWH of energy, i.e. that's 100% efficency. Unless the hotel has a perpetual wind turbine, has a river running through it grounds or has day/night time PV panels, - to use anything else requires creating carbon dioxide.

Until the UK grid is zero carbon, so do the panel heaters!

The answer is probably air source heat pumps for the building.

Also, overheated hotel rooms are generally more of a problem, so giving clients the ability to control the heating saves energy. Also panel heaters are probably the most reliable form of heating and the impact of a failure is limited to just one room. Sounds like the best deal to an organisation like a chain hotel.

Clearly not, as hotels are moving away from them towards other tech.

Clients can control the more modern centralised systems, anyway. You have hot and cold pipes, and the individual can control the temperature in their room based on which heat exchanger air is blown over.

 

[PeterC]

Well yes and that's going to be the issue, As well as how many chargers there will be at hotels, I think most of the councils pat themselves on the back if they put a single charger in the car park. Lets take somewhere like Whitby a popular Tourist destination, last time I was there, not that long since there wasn't a single charger of any sort in the big main car park and according to Zap map there isn't a single fast DC charger in Whitby at all, but we could be talking about about at least a 25% conversion to Electric within very few years and a couple of chargers in a car park of a couple of hundred spaces isn't going to cut it.

I visit Whitby regularly and last time that I checked it seemed like a black hole in the charging map. The main area of tourist accommodation is in West Cliff where the parking is primarily on street.

 

[paul1609]

Holiday Inn Jesmond has 5x chargers T2 7kw and 1x 43kw, no info on costs

Doubt that it charges £27 a night which is what I paid at the Travelodge!

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Interestingly I have just passed through Woodhall Services southbound M1 on a Nat Ex coach all chargers full and cars queuing for both the public and Tesla chargers.

 

[Shrop]

Thanks for the comments about PHEVs, some interesting points made. With regard to EVs generally though, I really hope the benefits continue to grow and that Government doesn't just promote them for a couple of years, and then forget about them. It makes me think of solar panels on people's homes, ie after they'd been encouraged for a couple of years, the unit rate for selling electricity went down and down, to a point where people who have them these days are more likely to do so because of an environmental conscience, than to make any money.
Already the promised huge electricity price rises for April is casting a big shadow over the value of EVs compared to petrol cars. EV drivers are being expected to just swallow price rises which sound like they'll be between 50% and 100%, depending on where you get your supply. I get mine mostly overnight at home, and upthread it's already been mentioned that the overnight rate by one supplier will go up by well over 200%. Just imagine the outcry if that hike applied to petrol prices!
In practice drivers of EVs won't make anything like the fuss about huge price rises that petrol car drivers would. I wonder if a lot of people may therefore soon end up having EVs primarily because of their environmental conscience rather than because they're cheaper to run. For me I enjoy driving in silence, and knowing that my car isn't belching out fumes when I'm sitting in traffic queues, but I do wonder whether I'm on a hiding to nothing with running costs over the next few years.

 

[david1212]

Maybe so, but you shouldn't (IMO) consider such a trip as hugely material in your cost thinking unless it's a very very frequent element of your overall driving pattern. IF 360 days of the year you do stay within your home charge/range limit and only exceed that as described on 5 days (for example) then any extra costs in this trip (if any) form a relatively small contribution to the total picture. You may well more than offset that "extra" with savings in your normal daily/weekly pattern. And not all remote chargers are 45p/unit. There are still many out there that are free (although how long that will last is entirely unknown).

Also to note not all the miles traveled for that trip would be at a higher price either, as (except in a fairly extreme case) at least some (most likely overt 100 miles) are likely to be from your home charging. Likewise some could be from a free charge (for instance at the place of your stay) or not much more than your normal charging rate (for instance your place of stay).

I based this example on a two week holiday. Overall once I retire 50% of my mileage could be away from my home range.

....
Every place of stay I have used for the last 6 years has come with free destination charging. It's a searchable option when you look for accommodation.

Long term I do not see there being many genuinely free chargers. Rather inclusive by adding an element to the overall cost.

Time will tell how pricing for say 7kW charging at hotels etc compares to the even the home daytime rate never mind lower overnight rates. Somewhere there is the installation of the infrastructure as well as maintenance to recover. I have not researched but hypothetically consider a 70 room Travellodge, Premier Inn etc. To allow 50 parking spaces each with a 7kW charger ( any less will not fully charge a car overnight ) requires an additional supply capacity of 350kWh. This will not a one-off either as other nearby premises will also request for their supply capacity to be increased. Putting aside the source and National Grid very high voltage distribution there will need to be new sub-stations and for at least some new feeds of a significant distance from the very high voltage distribution.

Even more expensive will be installation for service areas along motorways and major roads. The section of the M5 from the M4 to Exeter is around 80 miles. Six service areas give an average spacing of ~13.5 miles. For each to have 500 charging points rated at 100kWh both northbound and southbound requires an incoming supply of 100MW !! Based on the Vauxhall e-Mokka range Calculator at 70mph the maximum range is 123 mile. Allow for fast charging to 80% and 20% reserve so around 80 miles between charges then every car covering the full section will need to stop and charge. Dropping to 60mph the maximum range increases to 152 miles. If e-PSV's and e-HGV's become practically feasible then perhaps 1MW chargers required !!

Hah, they’re nowhere near. 18 months ago I bought a then 1-year-old petrol Toyota Yaris for £12k. Looking at Autotrader today, the best I could manage for that kind of money would be a 5-year-old Nissan Leaf. There is still a considerable premium for an electric car of a comparable size to a petrol one.

A 1 year old Yaris is now £16-18k

Short and maybe medium term the capital costs of an ICV have changed with used car prices higher due to the long lead times for new cars. My neighbour has a Ford on order. It was due last November but delayed two months so far.
Two years ago I paid £9500 for a 1 year old car with a new OTR price of £16,500. If I keep it 8 years and it has a residual ( or e-car scrappage ) value of £1500 that is £1000 per year. To me within reason the initial purchase price is irrelevant. What counts is the depreciation. In today's terms in 2028 will I be able to buy a 1 year old e-car then sell it 8 years later for £8000 or even £10,000 less ? This also presumes the battery capacity / range is still at least 75% .


I have not significantly researched hybrids but most seem to be essentially an ICV with a relatively small battery. Maybe technically not feasible but what I would find most tempting right now is a hybrid that essentially is an e-car with 25 - 33% of the batteries removed to fit a small IC engine and alternator capable of delivering the average continuous power required at 70mph or a little less. Again based on the e-Mokka 25 - 30kW. For my current usage, as against that envisaged in retirement, at least 80% of my mileage would be from charging at home then for the remainder I could be independent from public, hotel etc charging.

 

[AM9]

Thanks for the comments about PHEVs, some interesting points made. With regard to EVs generally though, I really hope the benefits continue to grow and that Government doesn't just promote them for a couple of years, and then forget about them. It makes me think of solar panels on people's homes, ie after they'd been encouraged for a couple of years, the unit rate for selling electricity went down and down, to a point where people who have them these days are more likely to do so because of an environmental conscience, than to make any money.
Already the promised huge electricity price rises for April is casting a big shadow over the value of EVs compared to petrol cars. EV drivers are being expected to just swallow price rises which sound like they'll be between 50% and 100%, depending on where you get your supply. I get mine mostly overnight at home, and upthread it's already been mentioned that the overnight rate by one supplier will go up by well over 200%. Just imagine the outcry if that hike applied to petrol prices!
In practice drivers of EVs won't make anything like the fuss about huge price rises that petrol car drivers would. I wonder if a lot of people may therefore soon end up having EVs primarily because of their environmental conscience rather than because they're cheaper to run. For me I enjoy driving in silence, and knowing that my car isn't belching out fumes when I'm sitting in traffic queues, but I do wonder whether I'm on a hiding to nothing with running costs over the next few years.

For those that can, I suspect that PV panels will be the norm to accompany EVs. The cost of a typical system is within the scope of purchasing a new EV. Although strictly off topic for this thread, the reason the feed-in tariff was introduced was to launch the PV industry when prices were still too high for all but the most wealthy early adopters. Once prices had dropped there was no real requirement to encourage the take-up with a long-term subsidy so it was reduced as the prices fell. It has now been removed altogether but export deals are available to all.

 

[37424]

@reddragon is commenting on my statement: "will cost about the same as the nearest equivalent ICV ...". Which doesn't include cars with minimal features as they are marketed to get the lowest price point in league tables. As for transmission options, the continuing high cost of automatic transmissions in ICVs will no longer be an issue as all normal EVs have their performance with a single gear ratio between motor and wheels. Soon, everybody will be driving without 'stirring porridge'.

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I have seen that Hyundai will be launching what we all know as 'small' cars in 2023 to replace their i10 & i20 sized vehicles, so that will be replicated across the marketplace by the likes of Ford, Peugeot, VW and a plethora of far eastern manufacturers. The problem for the established manufacturers is that IVC bodies with batteries and motors replacing the existing fuel tanks, engines anof poor use of space. EVs that have been designed from the ground up result in a much more practical vehicle than the conservative 'lets keep the old shape as customers know that' attitude.They will learn (or lose a lot of sales in the near future).

But the fact remains that you can get a Golf substancially cheaper than an ID3, and a Petrol ZS far cheaper than an Electric ZS, yes it may not be equivalent spec but it may be good enough for some people, so to my mind its not really parity because you still have to pay substancially more for the electric.

As far Hybrids go I think Self Chargers are the better option of the two, yes they are still a petrol car but only have a small battery with moderate weight penalty with generally better fuel economy than a petrol, and as built up areas are usually lower speed that tends to be when the car is more in electric mode.

PHEV I'm not convinced by, tend to be more expensive than a self charger, more on a par with buying a pure EV, bigger battery so when in petrol mode bigger battery lump to carry around, and when in EV mode have an ICE lump to carry around compared to a pure EV.

 

[Bald Rick]

But the fact remains that you can get a Golf substancially cheaper than an ID3, and a Petrol ZS far cheaper than an Electric ZS, yes it may not be equivalent spec but it may be good enough for some people, so to my mind its not really parity because you still have to pay substancially more for the electric.

But most people (and organisations) in the new car market are leasing. The cheapest VW Golf lease I can find is £230/month. The cheapest VW ID3 is £260/ month. Hardly ‘substantially more’.

Add in the respective costs in Vehicle Excise Duty (£155 vs £0), ‘fuel’ (15p mile vs 5p/ mile), maintenance etc, and the ID3 will be cheaper.

 

[AM9]

But the fact remains that you can get a Golf substancially cheaper than an ID3, and a Petrol ZS far cheaper than an Electric ZS, yes it may not be equivalent spec but it may be good enough for some people, so to my mind its not really parity because you still have to pay substancially more for the electric.

That may be true but not relevant as I posted, "will cost about the same as the nearest equivalent ICV ...", and presumably that will be the same for new models that will be introduced every year. Unlike many years ago, the average level of trim that new cars sell with is mid-range, - not the most basic models that generally are procured by businesses for multiple driver use.

 

[jon0844]

For those that can, I suspect that PV panels will be the norm to accompany EVs. The cost of a typical system is within the scope of purchasing a new EV. Although strictly off topic for this thread, the reason the feed-in tariff was introduced was to launch the PV industry when prices were still too high for all but the most wealthy early adopters. Once prices had dropped there was no real requirement to encourage the take-up with a long-term subsidy so it was reduced as the prices fell. It has now been removed altogether but export deals are available to all.

I'd have thought the future is to have solar panels on your roof and charge a home battery pack, that can power your home day or night. More useful than selling the excess energy off, although if you can for any money it has to be better than nothing.

These home batteries are likely to be formed from batteries taken from EVs and repurposed.

Of course, like off road parking, not everyone has a home that can accommodate solar panels (or the roof direction will limit the efficiency).

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd have thought the future is to have solar panels on your roof and charge a home battery pack, that can power your home day or night. More useful than selling the excess energy off, although if you can for any money it has to be better than nothing.

It already is. I am being bombarded with adverts for home PV+battery systems starting around £5k. Given the future price of electricity the case for these is going to be a lot better. Especially with variable tariffs and an ability to use the battery to store mains power.

 

[trebor79]

It already is. I am being bombarded with adverts for home PV+battery systems starting around £5k. Given the future price of electricity the case for these is going to be a lot better. Especially with variable tariffs and an ability to use the battery to store mains power.

Have seriously looked into buying a lot of leisure batteries to stack in my garage. Charge them on a 5p overnight tariff and use during the day.
It's doable and *much* cheaper that using lithium ion batteries.
I don't understand the obsession with lithium batteries for energy storage. Lead acid and redox flow batteries are much cheaper and the size/weight penalty which makes them impractical for vehicles isn't a concern.

 

[AM9]

I'd have thought the future is to have solar panels on your roof and charge a home battery pack, that can power your home day or night. More useful than selling the excess energy off, although if you can for any money it has to be better than nothing.

These home batteries are likely to be formed from batteries taken from EVs and repurposed.

Of course, like off road parking, not everyone has a home that can accommodate solar panels (or the roof direction will limit the efficiency).

That is part of my longer term plan. I've just had a 4KW array installed with a decent SMA inverter and an immersion heater power saver. That cost under £6K. After at least a full year I will be able to decide how best to add local storage to it. As you've said, a home battery pack will allow daytime storage on sunny days for use in the evening. On cloudy days, the battery can be charged from the off-peak rate on a split tariff. Another option is when I have an EV, a smart charger can be used to allow a portion of the charge in the car for domestic purposes. With a normal battery size approaching 50kWH, most of my regular use could be fulfilled with less than 60% of a 20-80% charge, giving a possible 10kWH for domestic use.
I might add that for me it isn't all about price, - generating power from solar energy and using it for domestic purposes is something that many will want to do and it will help smooth the load on both local and national grid networks. In my case the 'fuel' used in an EV will be truly renewable and won't rely on dodgy deals involving certificates for tree planting being sold around in ever decreasing circles. However it does look like as @Bald Rick says, electricity prices will rise sharply and I wouldn't be surprised if my current 19.88p per unit isn't raised to 25p by the summer and 30p by the end of the year so the savings compared with the capital cost will be even greater.

 

[paul1609]

Have seriously looked into buying a lot of leisure batteries to stack in my garage. Charge them on a 5p overnight tariff and use during the day.
It's doable and *much* cheaper that using lithium ion batteries.
I don't understand the obsession with lithium batteries for energy storage. Lead acid and redox flow batteries are much cheaper and the size/weight penalty which makes them impractical for vehicles isn't a concern.

I'd suggest talking to your insurance company if you are thinking about having large numbers of lead acid batteries on your property to store energy, especially if you going to be using them to power invertors in sync with the grid!

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It already is. I am being bombarded with adverts for home PV+battery systems starting around £5k. Given the future price of electricity the case for these is going to be a lot better. Especially with variable tariffs and an ability to use the battery to store mains power.

An ideal located 4kwp system in the UK will on average generate 9kwh/day but that varies between 15 kwh/day in May down to 2-3 Kwh/day in Dec/Jan.
In the winter months there isn't really any surplus that makes it worthwhile charging batteries.
The 4 Kwp system will thus generate around 3300 kwh/per year in total. The average 3 bedroom property/ family in the UK use 3000 Kwh/per year so even in ideal conditions there isn't much surplus to use powering an ev even if you can match the supply to demand.

 

[The Ham]

But most people (and organisations) in the new car market are leasing. The cheapest VW Golf lease I can find is £230/month. The cheapest VW ID3 is £260/ month. Hardly ‘substantially more’.

Add in the respective costs in Vehicle Excise Duty (£155 vs £0), ‘fuel’ (15p mile vs 5p/ mile), maintenance etc, and the ID3 will be cheaper.

That £155 VED reduces the annual cost from £360 extra (12*£30=£360) for the EV to £205, even at 7,000 miles a year the fuel costs only need to be an average of 3p a miles cheaper. Even if fast chargers charge you the same for half your milage you'd only need your home rate to be 6p a mile cheaper (say 9ppm vs 15ppm). However even if it turns out that it's (say) £50 a year more expensive few would see that as an issue.

However a lot of EV's currently are company cars and so the cost of "Benefit in Kind" comes into play and so even with zero fuel cost savings these are likely to be cheaper for the individual.

 

[AM9]

I'd suggest talking to your insurance company if you are thinking about having large numbers of lead acid batteries on your property to store energy, especially if you going to be using them to power invertors in sync with the grid. ...

It's actually far more serious than that. Connection of what is known as a 'micro generation' system is illegal unless conforming to very specific technical and regulatory conditions. Apart from the obvious requirements to meet EMC specifications, the system must guarantee to disconnect from the DNO's network within 5 seconds of a power outage. Otherwise, any person working online to restore power might be at risk. Also there would be an immediate uncontrollable phase imbalance.
There is nothing to prevent a homeowner creating their own isolated network. Apart from the things that you mentioned, there's fire/explosion risk, EM emissions, personal safety, and the negative impact on close neighbours.

 

[reddragon]

Why is so much importance placed of purchase values of a car when 90% buy on PCP or similar?

The monthly cost of running an EV is the lowest of any car type.

 

[JamesT]

Why is so much importance placed of purchase values of a car when 90% buy on PCP or similar?

The monthly cost of running an EV is the lowest of any car type.

90% of new cars may be bought on PCP, but used car sales outnumber new 4:1. Purchase price will be the key factor in buying used.
EVs may well be the lowest running costs, but it depends on your mileage whether that’s enough of a saving to make the overall cost lower.

 

[jon0844]

We're now approaching a time where there will be quite a lot of used EVs to give a far better choice than just another Nissan Leaf.

 

[DustyBin]

Why is so much importance placed of purchase values of a car when 90% buy on PCP or similar?

The monthly cost of running an EV is the lowest of any car type.

Really you should look at purchase cost, monthly cost, guaranteed future value and actual likely future value (often tricky!). The majority don’t however, they simply look at the monthly payment which you’re right in saying is the most important thing for most people. What it doesn’t tell you though is whether you’ve got a good deal overall!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at the title of the thread where it says "to the detriment of public transport", I wonder how those people who are currently affected by the First Manchester bus strikes think of the word "detriment" at this moment in time.

 

[trebor79]

I'd suggest talking to your insurance company if you are thinking about having large numbers of lead acid batteries on your property to store energy, especially if you going to be using them to power invertors in sync with the grid!

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An ideal located 4kwp system in the UK will on average generate 9kwh/day but that varies between 15 kwh/day in May down to 2-3 Kwh/day in Dec/Jan.
In the winter months there isn't really any surplus that makes it worthwhile charging batteries.
The 4 Kwp system will thus generate around 3300 kwh/per year in total. The average 3 bedroom property/ family in the UK use 3000 Kwh/per year so even in ideal conditions there isn't much surplus to use powering an ev even if you can match the supply to demand.

It's actually far more serious than that. Connection of what is known as a 'micro generation' system is illegal unless conforming to very specific technical and regulatory conditions. Apart from the obvious requirements to meet EMC specifications, the system must guarantee to disconnect from the DNO's network within 5 seconds of a power outage. Otherwise, any person working online to restore power might be at risk. Also there would be an immediate uncontrollable phase imbalance.
There is nothing to prevent a homeowner creating their own isolated network. Apart from the things that you mentioned, there's fire/explosion risk, EM emissions, personal safety, and the negative impact on close neighbours.

Oh I wouldn't put electricity back into the grid. Just charge the batteries from the grid (which is perfectly legal notwithstanding any insurance issues). Then use the stored power solely for EV charging, or power the house but isolated from the grid. I'd have a breaker on a timer and put a UPS on things like the internet router to tide them over the few seconds of switchover each day.
My wife will never let me do it of course, but if I've thought of it I'm sure others have too

 

[AM9]

Oh I wouldn't put electricity back into the grid. Just charge the batteries from the grid (which is perfectly legal notwithstanding any insurance issues). Then use the stored power solely for EV charging, or power the house but isolated from the grid. I'd have a breaker on a timer and put a UPS on things like the internet router to tide them over the few seconds of switchover each day.
My wife will never let me do it of course, but if I've thought of it I'm sure others have too

A commercial UPS wouldn't feed power back into the grid in the event of a power cut as it would be running in offline mode. Given that most network peripherals seem to have external 12V 'ish DC supplies, that would be a more efficient place to inject back-up power and remove the chance of power going back into the grid.
I think that everyone who has a PV system would (secretly) relish the idea of being the only household that has power during a power cut, but to do it automatically would be quite a task and probably illegal in terms of DNO agreements unless the lights, ewtc., were a separate installation. Switching over a car charger might upset them a bit, - especially a smart charger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is so much importance placed of purchase values of a car when 90% buy on PCP or similar?

If there's no used market, EVs will go nowhere. I will not buy a car on PCP, I always buy used. A PCP is simply paying off depreciation, I get no asset and no control.

I would conventionally lease over a PCP. The former offers more options and flexibility. Neither offers me ownership unless I buy it separately at the end of the contract - PCP is a misnomer, as unless you pay the "guaranteed future value" no purchase ever occurs. It is just a form of lease contract, in practice.

 

[trebor79]

A commercial UPS wouldn't feed power back into the grid in the event of a power cut as it would be running in offline mode. Given that most network peripherals seem to have external 12V 'ish DC supplies, that would be a more efficient place to inject back-up power and remove the chance of power going back into the grid.
I think that everyone who has a PV system would (secretly) relish the idea of being the only household that has power during a power cut, but to do it automatically would be quite a task and probably illegal in terms of DNO agreements unless the lights, ewtc., were a separate installation. Switching over a car charger might upset them a bit, - especially a smart charger.

A garage local to me has a very similar installation (though in their case it's a generator rather than a bank of batteries). They have a panel with instructions on what to do in case of a power cut (isolate from the grid, start generator, close breaker from generator to fusebox) along with a dire warning under no circumstances to close the breaker to the grid with the generator breaker closed.
If you aren't wanting to put power into the grid it's actually rather trivial to ensure that only one breaker is ever closed.
All the DNO is worried about is unauthorised connection of generation equipment (it wouldn't be, as the generation equipment would never be connected to the grid) and that you don't blow the 100A fuse on your incomer. I don't see why they would care if I choose to charge a battery overnight, disconnect it from the grid and then use that power how I see fit?

In the context of EV charging, the other option is to install a solar array, and rather than connect it to the grid, charge a battery bank during the day. Then you plug your EV in in the evening to charge overnight. Now you're not going anywhere near your grid connection, it's completely separate. I did some research and it works out much cheaper and more cost effective that connecting a solar array to the grid and complicated tariffs. Parked for now as I'm going to wait a bit until I get an EV.