Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
45mpg is a reasonable rule of thumb, as it's easy to convert from price per litre - works out about 15p/mile. On long distance trips you'll likely get more, so say 13p/mile.
At 45p/kWh at a public fast charger, that's 11-15p/mile
Not a lot in it...
A diesel generator seems to get about 3-4kWh per litre of diesel, which works out in the region of about 50 miles per gallon. Seems it could be cheaper to buy red diesel at 70-75p per litre and tow a generator to recharge your car, rather than use public ones on a road trip!
A diesel generator seems to get about 3-4kWh per litre of diesel, which works out in the region of about 50 miles per gallon. Seems it could be cheaper to buy red diesel at 70-75p per litre and tow a generator to recharge your car, rather than use public ones on a road trip!
If somebody did do that, effectively creating the equivalent of 1 gallon's worth of CO2 and NOx every 50 miles, it would surely attract some additional environmental tax/duty very quickly.
Except overnight demand hasn’t increased meaningfully due to EVs.
Even if every EV in the country was charging all night every night, at home on a 3kW charger, it would add 1.5GW to overnight demand, which is 25-30GW in winter, 20-25GW in summer.
But as we know, most EVs need to charge for perhaps a couple of hours a day, and many do so in day time. I’d be surprised if the effect of EV charging overnight at present was more than 0.25GW, ie a 1% increase. This will, of course, increase in the coming years.
Indeed but the advantage of offsetting the much higher capital cost /leasing costs against fuel cost is much reduced /almost gone especially for those who don't gain any tax advantage. With gas prices not expected to reduce until mid 2023 we could easily be seeing unit prices of 40p/Kwh off peak by next year.
Indeed but the advantage of offsetting the much higher capital cost /leasing costs against fuel cost is much reduced /almost gone especially for those who don't gain any tax advantage. With gas prices not expected to reduce until mid 2023 we could easily be seeing unit prices of 40p/Kwh off peak by next year.
45mpg is a reasonable rule of thumb, as it's easy to convert from price per litre - works out about 15p/mile. On long distance trips you'll likely get more, so say 13p/mile.
At 45p/kWh at a public fast charger, that's 11-15p/mile
Not a lot in it...
A diesel generator seems to get about 3-4kWh per litre of diesel, which works out in the region of about 50 miles per gallon. Seems it could be cheaper to buy red diesel at 70-75p per litre and tow a generator to recharge your car, rather than use public ones on a road trip!
Now true but of the 15p/mile for petrol even at current prices over 50% is duty and VAT while of 15p/mile for electricity just 5% is VAT.
The government will not long term loose ~7.5p/mile. Add that on to electricity at 45p/kWh and the total becomes 22.5p/mile.
For no significant cost increase the rate for charging can not be much over 20p/kWh.
Taking a personal view once retired I will be driving far more beyond the range of home charging. Take a holiday to Cornwall. Depending where based a 450 - 550 mile round trip then say 750 miles while there. If the realistic car range is 200 miles then just over 1000 miles from public chargers. At 3miles/kWh, 200 miles at 20p/kWh and 1050 miles at 45p/kWh and 1250 miles at 7.5p/mile to the government the total is around £265. For petrol at 15p/mile £187.50 so ~£80 less.
In 10+ years time the capital cost of an electric car compared to the equivalent petrol car today is unknown. The element that should be cheaper is maintenance.
A diesel generator seems to get about 3-4kWh per litre of diesel, which works out in the region of about 50 miles per gallon. Seems it could be cheaper to buy red diesel at 70-75p per litre and tow a generator to recharge your car, rather than use public ones on a road trip!
And heating oil is cheaper still, and some generators will run quite happily on it.
When I do get an EV, it might be worth me buying a genny, installed in the garage. I could plumb it up to a thermal store. Then I can charge the car for less and use the waste heat from the generator to contribute to hearing the house.
Now true but of the 15p/mile for petrol even at current prices over 50% is duty and VAT while of 15p/mile for electricity just 5% is VAT.
The government will not long term loose ~7.5p/mile. Add that on to electricity at 45p/kWh and the total becomes 22.5p/mile.
For no significant cost increase the rate for charging can not be much over 20p/kWh.
Taking a personal view once retired I will be driving far more beyond the range of home charging. Take a holiday to Cornwall. Depending where based a 450 - 550 mile round trip then say 750 miles while there. If the realistic car range is 200 miles then just over 1000 miles from public chargers. At 3miles/kWh, 200 miles at 20p/kWh and 1050 miles at 45p/kWh and 1250 miles at 7.5p/mile to the government the total is around £265. For petrol at 15p/mile £187.50 so ~£80 less.
In 10+ years time the capital cost of an electric car compared to the equivalent petrol car today is unknown. The element that should be cheaper is maintenance.
The message is that EVs will cost about the same as the nearest equivalent ICV by about 2025. As a manufactured article, they are far less labour intensive and likelihood is that their material content will have a similar value by then. If the industry fails to achieve that, their market will collapse because they are closing ICV development and production down at a pace.
Driving ICVs will become more difficult irrespective of fuel costs as city authorities tighten restrictions on where they can be used.
Taking a personal view once retired I will be driving far more beyond the range of home charging. Take a holiday to Cornwall. Depending where based a 450 - 550 mile round trip then say 750 miles while there. If the realistic car range is 200 miles then just over 1000 miles from public chargers. At 3miles/kWh, 200 miles at 20p/kWh and 1050 miles at 45p/kWh and 1250 miles at 7.5p/mile to the government the total is around £265. For petrol at 15p/mile £187.50 so ~£80 less.
Maybe so, but you shouldn't (IMO) consider such a trip as hugely material in your cost thinking unless it's a very very frequent element of your overall driving pattern. IF 360 days of the year you do stay within your home charge/range limit and only exceed that as described on 5 days (for example) then any extra costs in this trip (if any) form a relatively small contribution to the total picture. You may well more than offset that "extra" with savings in your normal daily/weekly pattern. And not all remote chargers are 45p/unit. There are still many out there that are free (although how long that will last is entirely unknown).
Maybe so, but you shouldn't (IMO) consider such a trip as hugely material in your cost thinking unless it's a very very frequent element of your overall driving pattern. IF 360 days of the year you do stay within your home charge/range limit and only exceed that as described on 5 days (for example) then any extra costs in this trip (if any) form a relatively small contribution to the total picture. You may well more than offset that "extra" with savings in your normal daily/weekly pattern. And not all remote chargers are 45p/unit. There are still many out there that are free (although how long that will last is entirely unknown).
Also to note not all the miles traveled for that trip would be at a higher price either, as (except in a fairly extreme case) at least some (most likely overt 100 miles) are likely to be from your home charging. Likewise some could be from a free charge (for instance at the place of your stay) or not much more than your normal charging rate (for instance your place of stay).
The message is that EVs will cost about the same as the nearest equivalent ICV by about 2025. As a manufactured article, they are far less labour intensive and likelihood is that their material content will have a similar value by then. If the industry fails to achieve that, their market will collapse because they are closing ICV development and production down at a pace.
Driving ICVs will become more difficult irrespective of fuel costs as city authorities tighten restrictions on where they can be used.
Also to note not all the miles traveled for that trip would be at a higher price either, as (except in a fairly extreme case) at least some (most likely overt 100 miles) are likely to be from your home charging. Likewise some could be from a free charge (for instance at the place of your stay) or not much more than your normal charging rate (for instance your place of stay).
Every place of stay I have used for the last 6 years has come with free destination charging. It's a searchable option when you look for accommodation.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Every place of stay I have used for the last 6 years has come with free destination charging. It's a searchable option when you look for accommodation.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, the cheapest Golf is still far cheaper than the cheapest ID3 and similarly with the MG ZS, however if you want better spec Automatic version of the ICE equivalent as I would need then yes the difference can become a lot less.
So from my viewpoint it became much more viable for me to consider an EV because of that requirement, but for others who don't need the Auto box or perhaps even the better spec that EV's may have then it can still be a significant difference.
Every place of stay I have used for the last 6 years has come with free destination charging. It's a searchable option when you look for accommodation.
Im staying in a New Travelodge in Newcastle atm, it has 4 electric chargers in a car park of around 100 cars. Theres the same 4 cars plugged in as when I arrived at 5pm yesterday. Not sure what no5 etc do.
When all cars are EVs will I receive a discount for arriving by bus?
Im staying in a New Travelodge in Newcastle atm, it has 4 electric chargers in a car park of around 100 cars. Theres the same 4 cars plugged in as when I arrived at 5pm yesterday. Not sure what no5 etc do.
When all cars are EVs will I receive a discount for arriving by bus?
Well yes and that's going to be the issue, As well as how many chargers there will be at hotels, I think most of the councils pat themselves on the back if they put a single charger in the car park. Lets take somewhere like Whitby a popular Tourist destination, last time I was there, not that long since there wasn't a single charger of any sort in the big main car park and according to Zap map there isn't a single fast DC charger in Whitby at all, but we could be talking about about at least a 25% conversion to Electric within very few years and a couple of chargers in a car park of a couple of hundred spaces isn't going to cut it.
Hah, they’re nowhere near. 18 months ago I bought a then 1-year-old petrol Toyota Yaris for £12k. Looking at Autotrader today, the best I could manage for that kind of money would be a 5-year-old Nissan Leaf. There is still a considerable premium for an electric car of a comparable size to a petrol one.
Apart from my own comments, I've not seen much in this thread about PHEVs. Mine does over 20 miles per charge which covers most of my driving, and if I do an occasional trip (once per month or so) of 30-40 miles, then the petrol engine just kicks in. A couple of times per year I take a holiday involving trips of perhaps 200 or maybe even 400 miles (such as to Scotland) each way, in which case it's almost entirely using petrol, which still produces around 45mpg even without charging at all. I also don't have any anxiety at all about the range, and I never have to worry about charge stations being full, or waiting around for my car to charge.
Altogether this seems like a win win, but a lot of comments seems to be about the merits of petrol vs EV. I wonder what are other people's thoughts about PHEVs, especially since some of the newer ones are now producing 40 miles or more per charge?
That's a very good point. I've looked into my next car being an economical hatchback (VW Golf type size), but I've come up against the most economical engines being put into the bigger cars, and not being available in the cars which are physically smaller. I was told that the bigger cars are necessary to accommodate the bigger batteries, but surely it's only a matter of time until the batteries become smaller. I don't know the answer to this, but it did frustrate me to find that the engine and power pack that I wanted, was available in a big SUV but not in a smaller hatchback.
Altogether this seems like a win win, but a lot of comments seems to be about the merits of petrol vs EV. I wonder what are other people's thoughts about PHEVs, especially since some of the newer ones are now producing 40 miles or more per charge?
PHEVs are sort of good as long as the range of EVs is very short and people mostly make relatively short journeys with it. Long journeys with a PHEV are actually more emitting than with a normal petrol car because the battery pack is very heavy. As EVs are starting to get proper ranges, the need for PHEVs reduces.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, the cheapest Golf is still far cheaper than the cheapest ID3 and similarly with the MG ZS, however if you want better spec Automatic version of the ICE equivalent as I would need then yes the difference can become a lot less.
So from my viewpoint it became much more viable for me to consider an EV because of that requirement, but for others who don't need the Auto box or perhaps even the better spec that EV's may have then it can still be a significant difference.
@reddragon is commenting on my statement: "will cost about the same as the nearest equivalent ICV ...". Which doesn't include cars with minimal features as they are marketed to get the lowest price point in league tables. As for transmission options, the continuing high cost of automatic transmissions in ICVs will no longer be an issue as all normal EVs have their performance with a single gear ratio between motor and wheels. Soon, everybody will be driving without 'stirring porridge'.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
That's a very good point. I've looked into my next car being an economical hatchback (VW Golf type size), but I've come up against the most economical engines being put into the bigger cars, and not being available in the cars which are physically smaller. I was told that the bigger cars are necessary to accommodate the bigger batteries, but surely it's only a matter of time until the batteries become smaller. I don't know the answer to this, but it did frustrate me to find that the engine and power pack that I wanted, was available in a big SUV but not in a smaller hatchback.
I have seen that Hyundai will be launching what we all know as 'small' cars in 2023 to replace their i10 & i20 sized vehicles, so that will be replicated across the marketplace by the likes of Ford, Peugeot, VW and a plethora of far eastern manufacturers. The problem for the established manufacturers is that IVC bodies with batteries and motors replacing the existing fuel tanks, engines anof poor use of space. EVs that have been designed from the ground up result in a much more practical vehicle than the conservative 'lets keep the old shape as customers know that' attitude.They will learn (or lose a lot of sales in the near future).
Im staying in a New Travelodge in Newcastle atm, it has 4 electric chargers in a car park of around 100 cars. Theres the same 4 cars plugged in as when I arrived at 5pm yesterday. Not sure what no5 etc do.
When all cars are EVs will I receive a discount for arriving by bus?
What will become more common I hope/expect, is that overstay charges will come into effect. The idea being that, once your car is fully charged, you have some sort of grace period to collect your vehicle, before fines are imposed. Tesla superchargers already implement this system, with a sliding scale that will charge up to £1/min for occupying a supercharger spot after your car is charged
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Altogether this seems like a win win, but a lot of comments seems to be about the merits of petrol vs EV. I wonder what are other people's thoughts about PHEVs, especially since some of the newer ones are now producing 40 miles or more per charge?
For me personally, I don’t mind PHEVs, but, as the owner of a REX i3, I think PHEVs have the tech the wrong way round. Internal combustion engines are the expensive, and complex part of cars, whereas the electric drivetrain is mechanicals much simpler. It makes much more sense to me to build a fully electric drivetrain, and run a smaller engine as a generator for that drivetrain, than to use a mechanical drivetrain and wedged in some electric drive there. Given the relative price of petrol vs electricity, maximising electric range over and above 20-30 miles makes a lot of sense to me
There is no chance I will be able to charge an EV at my home in this decade I imagine, and so having the REX backup of the i3 is perfect for me. I use public chargers when I can, and use petrol when I can’t. Gives me 180ish mile range, with very few emissions.
I’ve seen the new C class PHEV Merc has a 33kWh battery, which matches my i3 battery size. That I feel is approaching a useful size, PHEV or not
Altogether this seems like a win win, but a lot of comments seems to be about the merits of petrol vs EV. I wonder what are other people's thoughts about PHEVs, especially since some of the newer ones are now producing 40 miles or more per charge?
What will become more common I hope/expect, is that overstay charges will come into effect. The idea being that, once your car is fully charged, you have some sort of grace period to collect your vehicle, before fines are imposed. Tesla superchargers already implement this system, with a sliding scale that will charge up to £1/min for occupying a supercharger spot after your car is charged
With hotels, where you stay all night and are not going to want to unplug at 3am, it would make more sense to provide a larger number of 13A bays rather than a smaller number of fast chargers. Same with workplace car parks. A smaller number of fast chargers is more appropriate for places you stay for a short time like supermarkets or motorway services. It is not particularly expensive to provide a 13A charger per parking bay, just as a power socket is provided at each pair of seats on most trains now.
Travelodge rooms are heated with individual electric panel heaters, so if they sorted that out and replaced it with something more efficient, then they might not even need an upgraded supply to do that.
Given that Travelodge charge for wifi, I don't doubt they will charge for charging (!) in due course too. On the other hand, at a hotel at a motorway service area, this makes less sense, as one cannot (or at least would be very unlikely to) practically arrive at most sites by a mode other than a private motor vehicle.
For me personally, I don’t mind PHEVs, but, as the owner of a REX i3, I think PHEVs have the tech the wrong way round. Internal combustion engines are the expensive, and complex part of cars, whereas the electric drivetrain is mechanicals much simpler. It makes much more sense to me to build a fully electric drivetrain, and run a smaller engine as a generator for that drivetrain, than to use a mechanical drivetrain and wedged in some electric drive there. Given the relative price of petrol vs electricity, maximising electric range over and above 20-30 miles makes a lot of sense to me
If you’re going to have an ICE in there, you’re going to want a direct mechanical drive for efficiency. You’re going to lose some power in the conversion from mechanical to electric (generator) and some more in the conversion back (motor). Hybrids are sold on having lower emissions through getting more miles from your gallon, not less.
If you’re going to have an ICE in there, you’re going to want a direct mechanical drive for efficiency. You’re going to lose some power in the conversion from mechanical to electric (generator) and some more in the conversion back (motor). Hybrids are sold on having lower emissions through getting more miles from your gallon, not less.
This would be countered by always being able to have the IC engine operating at the precise rev range for efficient operation when being run to charge the battery, I suspect. It could either be off or running at peak efficiency. Also, a smaller engine could be used, as torque would not be a concern, simply power output.
PHEVs are sort of good as long as the range of EVs is very short and people mostly make relatively short journeys with it. Long journeys with a PHEV are actually more emitting than with a normal petrol car because the battery pack is very heavy. As EVs are starting to get proper ranges, the need for PHEVs reduces.
The other issue must be the cost of maintaining the petrol engine and all the other fluids, hoses, intakes etc - which won't exist with a pure EV. Even brake pads may not need changing during your time of ownership if you use regenerative braking most of the time.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I think it fair to charge for something that not everyone will need (not everyone even brings a car to a Travelodge). Some hotels charge for just having a parking space.
It certainly isn't necessary for hotels to provide super fast charging for people who are staying overnight, or at least not by default (maybe a select number of premium bays for those who want to pay more?). If Sweden can have car parks with a power socket for every space, to power in car heaters, it really isn't a big deal for slow charging a car that's there from early evening to morning.
What will become more common I hope/expect, is that overstay charges will come into effect. The idea being that, once your car is fully charged, you have some sort of grace period to collect your vehicle, before fines are imposed.
What could they use that would be easier to install (I am thinking that Travelodge's are modular, with rooms delivered to site complete with bathrooms etc so they wouldn't want to add complication - a panel heater uses wiring that will be needed anyway)
What could they use that would be easier to install (I am thinking that Travelodge's are modular, with rooms delivered to site complete with bathrooms etc so they wouldn't want to add complication - a panel heater uses wiring that will be needed anyway)
I think PHEVs get a bit unfairly hit by the tendency to make the perfect the enemy of the good. EVs being perfect by zero emission, while PHEVs are merely good, generally a lot more efficient and lower emission than regular cars but not the zero emission perfection of EVs.
One difficulty with PHEVs is there's a lot of variation in their design and engineering, so you need to look at the particular models in more detail to see how they compare and perform because you see a lot of comments about PHEVs which are based on one or two particular models, and don't apply to all PHEVs.
PHEVs are a good bridge technology, all electric driving for short range trips, with many models offering good hybrid efficiency on longer distances which still beats normal petrol cars.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
