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Why is Thameslink so terrible?

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Bletchleyite

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Yes, keeping it 8tph through the Core could well have been simpler. The justification for doing otherwise was the need for 12-car operation on the GN routes that didn't fit at Kings Cross. Of course, we now know that was completely unnecessary with hindsight but no one saw March 2020 coming.

True. I wonder if consideration should perhaps be given to reversing that decision and decomplicating it, in the light of that no longer being required. A lot of people prefer boarding at a facility-rich terminus, I certainly do, so it wouldn't be universally unpopular to do so, and it's hardly a long walk from KX suburban platforms to St Pancras Low Level to connect with it.
 
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Bald Rick

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So they purposefully timetable slow running Thameslink on the fasts that make inter city trains late sometimes... Odd

No, the capacity of the line is such that to fit in all the necessary trains that passenger demand requires, the EMR services have to operate at a similar average speed between Harpenden and West Hampstead as the TL service starts on the fast lines.

The alternative is to run fewer trains.
 

RailWonderer

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I made a 6 minute connection recently EUS to STP, but I wouldn’t rely on that consistently (obviously!), nor on a 7 minute connection STP to KGX.

There’s places I would (and do) rely on such short connections - Luton for example, Stevenage, Leicester, even Preston (a bit more of a gamble there, admittedly). I’d also probably rely on Redhill for all connections except southbound from London to the branches.
It depends on how long your connecting journey will be, if it was a longish journey I wouldn't take that risk, then again it depends from which platforms you arrived and departed at. Did you take the tube from EUS to STP? I can't imagine you ran down the road.
 

JonathanH

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Did you take the tube from EUS to STP? I can't imagine you ran down the road.
Running is the only way to make a Euston to St Pancras connection in six minutes. No way it could be done on the underground (or running on the Euston Road for that matter). Totally doable via Doric Way / Dangoor Walk.
 

baz962

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No, the capacity of the line is such that to fit in all the necessary trains that passenger demand requires, the EMR services have to operate at a similar average speed between Harpenden and West Hampstead as the TL service starts on the fast lines.

The alternative is to run fewer trains.
Regardless the reason , my statement is factual. It's timetabled to put Thameslink trains on the fast and make intercity and in fact connect services late.
 

Minstral25

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Very bad timetabling caused by a need to give everyone a direct service to everywhere with stupid stuff like Peterborough to Horsham.

Two points on Peterborough to Horsham services

1. They do not call at Norwood Junction so not part of issue
2. They go fast line to Purley then cross over to Redhill's at Stoats Nest so not part of issue

They have nothing to do with this problem which predates the May 2018 Thameslink timetable and has been a pain for passengers/commuters on the route for all of the 25 plus years I have used the line
 

JonathanH

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Two points on Peterborough to Horsham services

1. They do not call at Norwood Junction so not part of issue
2. They go fast line to Purley then cross over to Redhill's at Stoats Nest so not part of issue
Unfortunately a third and fourth point is that southbound Peterborough to Horsham services (in the normal timetable) use the slow line through Purley in the both peaks and stop at Norwood Junction in the morning peak.

Outside the peak they do what you indicate.
 

Minstral25

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Unfortunately a third and fourth point is that southbound Peterborough to Horsham services (in the normal timetable) use the slow line through Purley in the both peaks and stop at Norwood Junction in the morning peak.

Outside the peak they do what you indicate.
Oops I forgot, that's what you get for only being an off-peak passenger for a few years. The morning peak was moved between Horsham and Three Bridges starters to get the Southern Gatwick starters through to Redhill to add the carriages to the Reigate trains. Timetables are often far to complex.
 

RJ

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Where it comes to rail travel, you have to plan to reality rather than the timetable. Some parts of the network are congested and to make the most effective use of capacity, some lines have timetables which can't be delivered in reality unless everything runs perfectly, which it never does.

As a result, certain trains run a few minutes late on a regular basis. Regardless of what the journey planners tell you, this should be factored in. If that connection at Redhill is notoriously unreliable then I'd leave at least 15 minutes to make a connection there, to avoid the stress of not making a shorter one.

It used to happen on a journey I made from Denmark Hill to Loughborugh. The trains at Denmark Hill towards any of the London terminals were never on time in the morning peak for a start and the train I used to take to St Pancras was always about 5 minutes late. In theory it allowed enough time to walk to the Loughborough train at St Pancras but it practice this didn't work, so I changed the plan to get the train before and relax at St Pancras before travelling. The train more often than not arrived at Loughborough 3-5 minutes late which meant missing the bus which got me to my lecture in time - so having more time for connections was compulsory really.

It might not be advertised, but that's just how it is and it removes a lot of stress to plan with contingency. Granted, I know of a few people who have justifiable grievances with trains at Redhill, but that's usually more down to cancellations than connections.
 
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Islineclear3_1

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Only over a few days but I tried a week recently from West Dulwich transferring cross platform at the next station towards Blackfriars. First day southeastern was on time but Thameslink cancelled, next Thameslink was so full I could barely get on. Next day southeastern 10 mins late and missed the connection.
Even with the "old" Thameslink (using 319s), trains arriving at Herne Hill were regularly full and standing during the peaks. You just took whatever train you could get on

When I was living near Beckenham at the time, I used to catch the 07something that started at Beckenham Junction which guaranteed me a seat - bonus eh :D :D
 

Horizon22

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Very bad timetabling caused by a need to give everyone a direct service to everywhere with stupid stuff like Peterborough to Horsham.

Bad staffing as drivers only sign certain routes.

Bad trains as they’re designed as people movers, when the 12 car ones probably should have been a bit better.

Hopefully soon we can overhaul it.

Its not really as billed “everywhere to everywhere” - very few people are actually doing that and if they want London there are fastest trains. Those are the operationally convenient turnaround points and instead two services that used to have London terminals as destinations instead run through.

Yes it has the potential to pick up more residual delay but does have benefits too.
 

Bald Rick

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I can't imagine you ran down the road.

I ran most of the way. Back way past the Somers Town Cafe and Francis Crick. Doors open with Avanti to on TL train in a shade over 5 mins. And I’m not a runner!

Regardless the reason , my statement is factual. It's timetabled to put Thameslink trains on the fast and make intercity and in fact connect services late.

I’m afraid it isn’t factual. It’s timetabled to put Thameslink trains on the fasts, and make EMR trains run to time.

If the TL train is more than a minute or two late, then so will the EMR train. However there are more delays caused to TL trains waiting path for EMR than the other way round.
 

Envy123

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I moved to Huntingdon, partly because of the direct Thameslink service to Farringdon. Would increase my journey time if I had to change at King's Cross with the usual all stations to Stevenage stopping pattern.
 

baz962

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I ran most of the way. Back way past the Somers Town Cafe and Francis Crick. Doors open with Avanti to on TL train in a shade over 5 mins. And I’m not a runner!



I’m afraid it isn’t factual. It’s timetabled to put Thameslink trains on the fasts, and make EMR trains run to time.

If the TL train is more than a minute or two late, then so will the EMR train. However there are more delays caused to TL trains waiting path for EMR than the other way round.
You read that wrong and I don't doubt that more Thameslink trains are late. However I stand by what I said. The timetable isn't meant to hold up the intercity and connect. But it does , very regularly. Granted after Luton and Bedford the time is often made up . But passengers wanting airport parkway and Luton are quite often a couple of minutes down and both EMR type services the other way. It flips from dragging them to time to putting them late , only usually a couple of minutes , but late.
 

43066

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You read that wrong and I don't doubt that more Thameslink trains are late. However I stand by what I said. The timetable isn't meant to hold up the intercity and connect. But it does , very regularly. Granted after Luton and Bedford the time is often made up . But passengers wanting airport parkway and Luton are quite often a couple of minutes down and both EMR type services the other way. It flips from dragging them to time to putting them late , only usually a couple of minutes , but late.

I think the point is EMR services are timetabled to be slower than they could be with a clear run, because the net result is more capacity. It’s very noticeable if you’re following the path of a GTR which has been cancelled and running at linespeed, you’ll find yourself several minutes early at Luton, or outside Pancras.

Obviously there are some occasions when EMR are delayed by late running GTRs but, when everything is on time, you can be checked down for GTRs but still arrive on time.
 

whoosh

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True. I wonder if consideration should perhaps be given to reversing that decision and decomplicating it, in the light of that no longer being required. A lot of people prefer boarding at a facility-rich terminus, I certainly do, so it wouldn't be universally unpopular to do so, and it's hardly a long walk from KX suburban platforms to St Pancras Low Level to connect with it.

Well, that's an interesting viewpoint, but I have to disagree.
So far... we still haven't got a Crossrail/Elizabeth Line connection at Farringdon. I expect it will be very well used when it eventually comes into operation.
Based on that, I think there is no chance of reversing the decision to send trains through the Core, and the improved connectivity that sending them through was meant to achieve, will be realised when Crossrail opens.
 

baz962

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I think the point is EMR services are timetabled to be slower than they could be with a clear run, because the net result is more capacity. It’s very noticeable if you’re following the path of a GTR which has been cancelled and running at linespeed, you’ll find yourself several minutes early at Luton, or outside Pancras.

Obviously there are some occasions when EMR are delayed by late running GTRs but, when everything is on time, you can be checked down for GTRs but still arrive on time.
Of course. I know that. But those occasions are quite more often than rare. I also don't argue that it's due to the amount of trains etc. But the fact is , there are too many trains out there and they are often late. Before August , I commuted to West Hampstead Thameslink every day. My Thameslink was around two minutes late as almost every day. I'm not apportioning any blame .
 

Doctor Fegg

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Running is the only way to make a Euston to St Pancras connection in six minutes. No way it could be done on the underground (or running on the Euston Road for that matter). Totally doable via Doric Way / Dangoor Walk.
Folding bike.
 

AM9

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You read that wrong and I don't doubt that more Thameslink trains are late. However I stand by what I said. The timetable isn't meant to hold up the intercity and connect. But it does , very regularly. Granted after Luton and Bedford the time is often made up . But passengers wanting airport parkway and Luton are quite often a couple of minutes down and both EMR type services the other way. It flips from dragging them to time to putting them late , only usually a couple of minutes , but late.
Your post #62 is quite clearly implying that EMR trains were being delayed unnecessarily, see here: "So they purposefully timetable slow running Thameslink on the fasts that make inter city trains late sometimes... Odd". Even though @Bald Rick explained what is really happening, your next post #66 persists claiming that here is some deliberate action to make TL trains delay EMR services. Anyone who has travelled a few times on the TL fasts know that the waits for EMR trains to get into TL territory do cause delays to TL services, - which in turn can cause further delays to GN line TL trains waiting in the Canal Tunnel. A frequent problem is late TL trains being held at Harpenden waiting for access to the fasts to West Hampstead. The impact then is the TL train stopping at St Albans and sometimes West Hampstead causing the following EMR train to hit yellow lights down to the Belsize Tunnel, - no doubt you would see that as TL timetabled just to slow the EMR services down. If on the other hand the signaller decides to route the TL trains on the slows, stopping at St Albans, it either gets tangled up with a Sutton loop service at Radlett before it can cross over to the fasts, also messing up the sequence entering the core, or the metro service gets messed up a lot south of the river.

There is a reason why the Thameslink services are all running under 9XXX codes, - because the service is very tightly timed with short dwell trains that are required to clear the (much higher than EMR) volume of passengers travelling. Giving them a higher priority than ordinary express code 1XXX services allows the more critical service to take precedence.
 

Bald Rick

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The timetable isn't meant to hold up the intercity and connect.

but it is. It’s called pathing time.

Of course. I know that. But those occasions are quite more often than rare. I also don't argue that it's due to the amount of trains etc. But the fact is , there are too many trains out there and they are often late. Before August , I commuted to West Hampstead Thameslink every day. My Thameslink was around two minutes late as almost every day. I'm not apportioning any blame .

ok so now you do understand. What would be your solution? There’s only three possible answers…
 

baz962

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but it is. It’s called pathing time.



ok so now you do understand. What would be your solution? There’s only three possible answers…
I understood in the first place. I said that Thameslink trains hold up intercity trains , they do. You said it's timetabled that way. I didn't ever say that they do it to make intercity ones late . My exact wording was that they make them late. I said that they purposefully put them on the fasts , but I never said to make them late . There is a difference to they do it to make them late and they do it that makes them late. Less Thameslink is my answer , still very empty . Commuting is almost never coming back , certainly not as before.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Your post #62 is quite clearly implying that EMR trains were being delayed unnecessarily, see here: "So they purposefully timetable slow running Thameslink on the fasts that make inter city trains late sometimes... Odd". Even though @Bald Rick explained what is really happening, your next post #66 persists claiming that here is some deliberate action to make TL trains delay EMR services. Anyone who has travelled a few times on the TL fasts know that the waits for EMR trains to get into TL territory do cause delays to TL services, - which in turn can cause further delays to GN line TL trains waiting in the Canal Tunnel. A frequent problem is late TL trains being held at Harpenden waiting for access to the fasts to West Hampstead. The impact then is the TL train stopping at St Albans and sometimes West Hampstead causing the following EMR train to hit yellow lights down to the Belsize Tunnel, - no doubt you would see that as TL timetabled just to slow the EMR services down. If on the other hand the signaller decides to route the TL trains on the slows, stopping at St Albans, it either gets tangled up with a Sutton loop service at Radlett before it can cross over to the fasts, also messing up the sequence entering the core, or the metro service gets messed up a lot south of the river.

There is a reason why the Thameslink services are all running under 9XXX codes, - because the service is very tightly timed with short dwell trains that are required to clear the (much higher than EMR) volume of passengers travelling. Giving them a higher priority than ordinary express code 1XXX services allows the more critical service to take precedence.

A very good post , and the last point of the higher number of passengers on Thameslink North services is very relevant. Even in Covid times.......

There was a half baked idea some years ago on making T/link North services entirely slow lines , to clear the route for EMR services. That did not go very far.

The regulating skills of West Hampstead PSB are , in my opinion, very good - and often implemented.
 

baz962

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A very good post , and the last point of the higher number of passengers on Thameslink North services is very relevant. Even in Covid times.......

There was a half baked idea some years ago on making T/link North services entirely slow lines , to clear the route for EMR services. That did not go very far.

The regulating skills of West Hampstead PSB are , in my opinion, very good - and often implemented.
It's not that good. My original point was that they don't care much about inter city services. Am9 while rebuffing me says and I quote the 9xxx have a higher priority than 1xxx , so in short agreeing with my original statement that the inter city service has a lower priority ie cared about less than Thameslink. I didn't say there wasn't a reason. I didn't say that anything could be done better . So my original point is correct , Thameslink have a higher priority than the inter city.
 

43066

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A frequent problem is late TL trains being held at Harpenden waiting for access to the fasts to West Hampstead. The impact then is the TL train stopping at St Albans and sometimes West Hampstead causing the following EMR train to hit yellow lights down to the Belsize Tunnel, - no doubt you would see that as TL timetabled just to slow the EMR services down.

And of course an EMR class 1 running at linespeed will creep ahead of its slot and catch up with an on time GTR giving the impression the EMR service is being delayed, albeit this is a little less noticeable currently, given the thinned out service overall.

It’s a pity the MML crossovers are so much slower (40mph) than linespeed as that must eat into max theoretical line capacity.

There was a half baked idea some years ago on making T/link North services entirely slow lines , to clear the route for EMR services. That did not go very far.

Perhaps in these post covid times that idea can be put back into the oven and “browned off”. :D
 

Fincra5

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It's not that good. My original point was that they don't care much about inter city services. Am9 while rebuffing me says and I quote the 9xxx have a higher priority than 1xxx , so in short agreeing with my original statement that the inter city service has a lower priority ie cared about less than Thameslink. I didn't say there wasn't a reason. I didn't say that anything could be done better . So my original point is correct , Thameslink have a higher priority than the inter city.
You know the TL services have a 9xxx Headcode to ensure they are routed via the Core... Its an assumption to assume EMR services have a lower priority.

TL only really go on the Fasts between West Hampstead area and Radlett Jnc. Where they only call at St Albans. They cannot go on the Slows as the Stopping Services to St Albans/ Luton are on there!
 

baz962

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You know the TL services have a 9xxx Headcode to ensure they are routed via the Core... Its an assumption to assume EMR services have a lower priority.

TL only really go on the Fasts between West Hampstead area and Radlett Jnc. Where they only call at St Albans. They cannot go on the Slows as the Stopping Services to St Albans/ Luton are on there

You know the TL services have a 9xxx Headcode to ensure they are routed via the Core... Its an assumption to assume EMR services have a lower priority.

TL only really go on the Fasts between West Hampstead area and Radlett Jnc. Where they only call at St Albans. They cannot go on the Slows as the Stopping Services to St Albans/ Luton are on there!
A different poster said about them head codes. And the Thameslink by the way go over at harpenden quite often , so a bit further than radlett.
 

Bald Rick

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I didn't ever say that they do it to make intercity ones late
you did, you said:
(My bold)

It's timetabled to put Thameslink trains on the fast and make intercity and in fact connect services late.

I’m not sure how I could have interpreted differently!

right now, 9T42 has just left St Albans on time, and 1F62 is running slow behind it, and is running 3 early. 1D63 behind that is also running slowly, that’s 3 early too.


Commuting is almost never coming back , certainly not as before.

It is coming back, but not as before, I agree.

I don’t know if you use TL trains, but I can confirm that the trains that are running are busy all day. Specifically in the peak, the TL trains that use the fast lines are full and standing. Not surprising as there are only half the number that there were Pre covid. But the EMRs still need pathing time even for that.
 
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baz962

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you did, you said:



right now, 9T42 has just left St Albans on time, and 1F62 is running slow behind it, also on time.




It is coming back, but not as before, I agree.

I don’t know if you use TL trains, but I can confirm that the trains that are running are busy all day. Specifically in the peak, the trains that use the fast lines are full and standing. Not surprising as there are only half the number that there were Pre covid. But the EMRs still need pathing time even for that.
I use Thameslink trains often. In fact upto August , six or seven days a week.
And you seem to be adding the word to. I said that make them late. I didn't say TO make them late.
 

ChiefPlanner

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And of course an EMR class 1 running at linespeed will creep ahead of its slot and catch up with an on time GTR giving the impression the EMR service is being delayed, albeit this is a little less noticeable currently, given the thinned out service overall.

It’s a pity the MML crossovers are so much slower (40mph) than linespeed as that must eat into max theoretical line capacity.



Perhaps in these post covid times that idea can be put back into the oven and “browned off”. :D

Flashing yellows and installed banner repeaters installed over the years certainly help.

With regard to "browning off" - perhaps ought to be replaced by such ideas being put into the railway equivalent of the green food waste bin.
 
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