Southern peak services to Guildford

[TXMISTA]

What happened to these? The service is still shown on the Southern network map as a Limited Service route.

 

[swt_passenger]

What happened to these? The service is still shown on the Southern network map as a Limited Service route.

I’m sure someone mentioned a couple of years ago, ie before any COVID impact, that they were going to be withdrawn anyway. It might be quite difficult to find the discussion now though…

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Yeah, I doubt this is going to come back. There are no ecs's to maintain route knowledge or any agreement with SWR as far as I'm aware to maintain route knowledge. So all the relevant train crew have lost route knowledge.

 

[jackot]

Never seen one, but they are still listed as a limited service route on most maps as you said. I had a look last week at Guildford and couldn’t find a timetable or any evidence of Southern still serving the station. From what I heard, they used to be in peak times, and IIRC, a 377 in the morning and often a 455 in the evening (Thats if they ever turned up at all; it was a very unreliable service).

 

[NSE]

There was a couple, something like, one London Bridge and two Victoria in the morning, then one each in the evening. I think it was something like that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them cut, Guildford to Sutton must be the only unique flow with any potential credibility (unless they went via West Croydon, then that too, but even that must be comparable going via CLJ to East Croydon). Shame, I love a railway oddity as much as the next person. As for being shown on the map still, that’s nothing. Always been of the fan of the fact 455’s with SWR are running around advertising Waterloo for Brussels and Paris connections and Clapham Junction for North Woolwich!

 

[swt_passenger]

Never seen one, but they are still listed as a limited service route on most maps as you said. I had a look last week at Guildford and couldn’t find a timetable or any evidence of Southern still serving the station. From what I heard, they used to be in peak times, and IIRC, a 377 in the morning and often a 455 in the evening (Thats if they ever turned up at all; it was a very unreliable service).

There were only about half a dozen trains in total per day, am peak 2 up and 1 down, pm peak 1 up and 2 down.

 

[Bald Rick]

Dead as that squirrel...

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Dead as that squirrel...

Literally the only time I could see any use for these services is during the Epsom Derby, and even the your still just duplicating SWR.

I'm not a fan of cutting any services, but it was the right decision to cut these.

 

[mmh]

Dead as that squirrel...

As ever, the railway isn't for the passenger's convenience. About 20 years ago the Guildford to London Bridge services were my regular commuting trains. Yes, there were only ever a few of them, but there didn't need to be. They were there for commuters.

 

[JonathanH]

As ever, the railway isn't for the passenger's convenience. About 20 years ago the Guildford to London Bridge services were my regular commuting trains. Yes, there were only ever a few of them, but there didn't need to be. They were there for commuters.

Epsom is a perfectly acceptable station to change trains at though - SWR running Guildford to Waterloo via Bookham and Epsom trains running direct to London Bridge seems reasonable.

 

[Bald Rick]

As ever, the railway isn't for the passenger's convenience. About 20 years ago the Guildford to London Bridge services were my regular commuting trains. Yes, there were only ever a few of them, but there didn't need to be. They were there for commuters.

As ever, the railway is there for the benefit of as many people as possible, and not to deliver disproportionately expensive to provide services for the occasional passenger who might use them.

 

[swr444]

There was a couple, something like, one London Bridge and two Victoria in the morning, then one each in the evening. I think it was something like that. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them cut, Guildford to Sutton must be the only unique flow with any potential credibility (unless they went via West Croydon, then that too, but even that must be comparable going via CLJ to East Croydon). Shame, I love a railway oddity as much as the next person. As for being shown on the map still, that’s nothing. Always been of the fan of the fact 455’s with SWR are running around advertising Waterloo for Brussels and Paris connections and Clapham Junction for North Woolwich!

Don't forget "cystal" palace!

 

[route101]

Interesting, never knew Southern ran to Guildford.

 

[NSE]

Don't forget "cystal" palace!

Hah. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a map with so many oddities in such a small area

 

[Jimini]

On the flip side, remember the SWT services that used from run from Guildford via. Sutton, then non-stop to West Croydon where they terminated?

 

[MontyP]

Epsom is a perfectly acceptable station to change trains at though - SWR running Guildford to Waterloo via Bookham and Epsom trains running direct to London Bridge seems reasonable.

Or even via Waterloo / Waterloo East

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2021 ==

In a similar vein, I imagine that the Southern London Bridge - Sutton - Wimbledon loop services will never return

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Or even via Waterloo / Waterloo East

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2021 ==

In a similar vein, I imagine that the Southern London Bridge - Sutton - Wimbledon loop services will never return

Eh, I doubt they will, but Southern have put ecs paths in the WTT to keep route knowledge up, so at least they have a slight chance to return, compared to Guildfords which will never return.

 

[DorkingMain]

As ever, the railway isn't for the passenger's convenience. About 20 years ago the Guildford to London Bridge services were my regular commuting trains. Yes, there were only ever a few of them, but there didn't need to be. They were there for commuters.

The railway doesn't have infinite resources and expensive duplications like this one are not the best use of them

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Interesting, never knew Southern ran to Guildford.

Thameslink went there for a while as well

 

[cle]

Eh, I doubt they will, but Southern have put ecs paths in the WTT to keep route knowledge up, so at least they have a slight chance to return, compared to Guildfords which will never return.

And aren't these supposed to be the eventual uplift for the East Dulwich line, and the Loop/Blackfriars bays? If that ever happens!

 

[route101]

Thameslink went there for a while as well

I never knew that too. I did know Southern went to Bournemouth though.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

And aren't these supposed to be the eventual uplift for the East Dulwich line, and the Loop/Blackfriars bays? If that ever happens!

Not sure, that uplift defintley won't be happening anytime soon though.

 

[NSE]

With the Sutton Loop being Thameslink operated at all other times, same company etc, if the ECS paths are there, I can’t imagine it would be difficult for SN to begin them when ever they wanted

 

[ert47]

When I was going college back in the mid ‘00s, I used to love getting the Guildford service off London Bridge (sometime around 16xx?), was pretty much one of the only way for me to get on a Southern operated 319 around that time.

If I recall correctly, the Southern Guildford services were to be withdrawn around the time that SWR were meant to have the timetable change that didn’t happen. I think it disappeared before Covid kicked in

 

[DorkingMain]

Realistically the problem is less Southern cutting these services that were sparsely used and took significant resources, and more that SWR are down to one train an hour on this route, making connections at Epsom not always ideal.

 

[Nogoohwell]

In the morning peak, if the Southern Guildford service was running late, it would then delay the Effingham Junction to Waterloo SWR service. Which in turn would then run fast through Ewell West, Stoneleigh and Motspur Park to make up time. Used to really screw up my mornings having to wait for the next train.

I do know a few people in the Effingham/Bookham area and they used to love the Southern service, aircon train, smoother ride, better seats and only 10 minutes longer to London. If the SWR service was delayed or the usual congestion at Waterloo, then the Southern was the better option.

It may be duplication for a few stations, but if you have to go across south London, (rather than into it) its a really service.

 

[infobleep]

Eh, I doubt they will, but Southern have put ecs paths in the WTT to keep route knowledge up, so at least they have a slight chance to return, compared to Guildfords which will never return.

Is there enough demand to run the Southern services? After all:

As ever, the railway is there for the benefit of as many people as possible, and not to deliver disproportionately expensive to provide services for the occasional passenger who might use them.

Realistically the problem is less Southern cutting these services that were sparsely used and took significant resources, and more that SWR are down to one train an hour on this route, making connections at Epsom not always ideal.

I don't travel so often to Sutton but when I need to I would find two trains an hour more preferable. Yes there is a route via Clapham Junction but there are no fast trains to Clapham Junction during the morning high peak from Guildford and off peak during the day (until 5 pm), only one fast train an hour, which departs 10 minutes before the train to Epsom. Services back via Clapham Junction fair better as there is a reasonable connection to Guildford, off the train to Exeter, at Woking. Not so in the up direction though.

Actually, I've just done a search and the only services from Guildford to show up are:
x45 change at Epsom taking 45 minutes
x49 change at Woking and Wimbledon taking 1h22m but it isn't valid on a single ticket
x49 change at Woking and Clapham Junction taking 1h24m.

That is 39 minutes longer than the Epsom route. I can only assume taking the direct fast train to Clapham Junction gets overtaken by the x45 in journey arrival times.

For the return, there are two routes, one via Epsom taking 49m and one via Dorking taking 1h13m.

 

[387star]

I believe this service required a Guard for part of the journey as well as they were often badly affected when there was strike action after the OBS agreement started

 

[Class 466]

They were removed when the first revised timetable came into operation way back in March 2020 - there was breifly some route knowledge runs back in Summer 20 but since about the September 20 timetable change, they stopped being scheduled.

 

[infobleep]

They were removed when the first revised timetable came into operation way back in March 2020 - there was breifly some route knowledge runs back in Summer 20 but since about the September 20 timetable change, they stopped being scheduled.

We're they ECSs or passenger services?