HS2-HS1 on foot

[Shrop]

I see that the previous HS2-HS1 thread has been closed, but that was about trains running between HS2 and HS1. I've always believed that this rail link had more merit than it was given credit for, and that judgement of it was based too heavily on the light loadings of the HSTs that ran from Waterloo to Manchester in the 1990s, which in turn provided all the excuse needed to not build a rail link. Sad, not forward thinking and misjudged I believe, but for the next few years at least, that door has been closed.

What deserves more focus now, is a link for passengers who will arrive into Euston on HS2, and wish to continue their journeys using HS1. It's worth pointing out that efforts to allow passengers to make such journeys have hitherto been absolutely shameful, yet even people on these forums have been very dismissive and demonstrated how out of touch they are with reality. For example a suggestion about having a purpose built people-mover was met with the response that they already exist, and went on to name the three underground routes that run from Euston to St.Pancras. I ask you! While some people might be happy to navigate unknown territory whilst carrying a couple of heavy suitcases down and back up several unfamiliar escalators and numerous corridors, whilst being pushed around by large crowds of fast moving people, there are many others who don't consider such experiences to be part of a relaxing journey!

The cost of providing a dedicated pedestrian link from HS2 to HS1 would be miniscule in comparison with providing a railway, but the last time I made the trip from Euston to St.Pancras to catch a Eurostar, I was dismayed to find that even providing a few helpful signs seemed to be beyond the wit of the anyone with authority. So heaven help those who might arrive in Birmingham New Street from a multitude of surrounding places, wanting to find Curzon Street to catch HS2, if the signing is as abysmal as it has been for passengers arriving into Euston from all over the UK, who have tried to find HS1.

All too often those in charge of these things have little concept of the realities that face a lot of the travelling public, maybe because those in charge are familiar with where they're going, and able both physically and mentally to tackle hurdles such as escalators and underground trains, and they then somehow arrive at the misguided conclusion that everyone else functions just as they do. Yet even for those who can cope with escalators and luggage etc (as I can, as well as being pretty familiar with the various routes), it would still be helpful, as well as conducive to future rail-based trips, to have something that makes the transfer easier.

So my main question is, does anyone know what provisions are intended as part of HS2, to help passengers arriving into Euston, who may have luggage and be unfamiliar with their surroundings, to find and transfer on to HS1?

 

[swt_passenger]

A fairly regular topic, this is the last one I could find from a couple of years ago:

Connecting Euston and King's Cross after HS2 completion

Moderator note: posts 1-21 split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-government-to-give-high-speed-rail-line-the-go-ahead.200154/ and moved into this thread I was a doubter until our holiday to Japan last year. The Shinkansen was not just impressive in operation, but it made me...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Shrop]

A fairly regular topic, this is the last one I could find from a couple of years ago:

Connecting Euston and King's Cross after HS2 completion

Moderator note: posts 1-21 split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-government-to-give-high-speed-rail-line-the-go-ahead.200154/ and moved into this thread I was a doubter until our holiday to Japan last year. The Shinkansen was not just impressive in operation, but it made me...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks, I'd not seen that thread but a quick look shows it to be closed, and perhaps it might be worth getting new thoughts now that we're almost two years further on. I also wonder what HS2 Ltd are doing about passengers finding their way from New Street to Curzon Street, if anyone knows?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, I'd not seen that thread but a quick look shows it to be closed, and perhaps it might be worth getting new thoughts now that we're almost two years further on. I also wonder what HS2 Ltd are doing about passengers finding their way from New Street to Curzon Street, if anyone knows?

I doubt anything has changed regarding the London end. At Birmingham, the link must be exactly the same as New St to Moor St.

 

[edwin_m]

Last time I looked (several years ago now) there was a signed walking route via Brill Place. This is probably quicker than Euston Road, considering that it lines up with the side entrance of St Pancras, and definitely more pleasant. Any access to the west side HS2 station would have to get past the obstacle of the existing station, and while there have been plans to re-build that including an east-west walkway, I doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately this also blocks any widening of Eversholt Street, and pedestrianisation would involve diverting several bus routes quite a long way further.

However, I can see self-driving pods working on this route. Something similar has operated in the Netherlands for some years without requiring full segregation, and it should be fully proven by the time HS2 arrives. Numbers making the transfer won't be huge - even 100 on each Eurostar only works out at five per minute, roughly the capacity of a pod. This would be much cheaper than something like a VLR or a grade-separated peoplemover, which would also require either an unsightly elevated structure or an expensive tunnel.

New Street to Curzon Street has a tram connection under construction, which I doubt is the best option for a relatively short journey but is primarily about connecting places beyond Curzon Street.

 

[adamedwards]

It would be great to see the parcels deck at Euston repurposed to create a route across the station and the HS2 bit creating a walking/cycling axis linking Carrington Place to Phoenix Road/Brill Place. It would need some master planning.

 

[Struner]

A fairly regular topic, this is the last one I could find from a couple of years ago:

Connecting Euston and King's Cross after HS2 completion

Moderator note: posts 1-21 split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-government-to-give-high-speed-rail-line-the-go-ahead.200154/ and moved into this thread I was a doubter until our holiday to Japan last year. The Shinkansen was not just impressive in operation, but it made me...

www.railforums.co.uk

Indeed, fairly regular, a couple of years ago…
& the STP EUS connection is a shame

 

[zwk500]

Plans for the existing walking route to be revamped so as to be more obvious to customers can be found here: https://phoenixroad.commonplace.is/about & https://content.tfl.gov.uk/hs2-phoenix-road-urban-study-tfl-2015.pdf

 

[MarkyT]

Last time I looked (several years ago now) there was a signed walking route via Brill Place. This is probably quicker than Euston Road, considering that it lines up with the side entrance of St Pancras, and definitely more pleasant. Any access to the west side HS2 station would have to get past the obstacle of the existing station, and while there have been plans to re-build that including an east-west walkway, I doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately this also blocks any widening of Eversholt Street, and pedestrianisation would involve diverting several bus routes quite a long way further.

However, I can see self-driving pods working on this route. Something similar has operated in the Netherlands for some years without requiring full segregation, and it should be fully proven by the time HS2 arrives. Numbers making the transfer won't be huge - even 100 on each Eurostar only works out at five per minute, roughly the capacity of a pod. This would be much cheaper than something like a VLR or a grade-separated peoplemover, which would also require either an unsightly elevated structure or an expensive tunnel.

I think autonomous pods might supplement a dramatically improved walking route. Waiting for and boarding a pod at busy times might easily take half as long as walking the whole way, as a walk can commence immediately on demand, and I doubt they'd exceed walking pace by much anyway, once underway, purely for safety reasons, unless completely segregated. The pods would be an attractive option for those less able and those encumbered with much luggage, for which they need to make adequate provision. Hand-propelled luggage carts shared between the various terminals also need to be made easily available for those who elect to walk. Don't forget connections between HS2 and Thameslink as well as Kent HS1 domestics will be available via this pedestrian transfer; HS2 - Gatwick will probably be easiest this way for instance. Could be rather busy I suspect. The walkway needs to be wide and traffic-free as well as obviously safe and secure especially for the non-familiar user.

 

[Shrop]

Plans for the existing walking route to be revamped so as to be more obvious to customers can be found here: https://phoenixroad.commonplace.is/about & https://content.tfl.gov.uk/hs2-phoenix-road-urban-study-tfl-2015.pdf

I appreciate this information and thank you for providing these links, however this raises some questions, namely:-

1. Why was this study not carried out when it was planned for Eurostar to run into St Pancras instead of Waterloo? Doing it now makes it around 20 years late!

2. This study appears to conclude that the necessary work will cost around £2m - £4m, in order to have pedestrians still walking from Euston to St.Pancras. Have I missed something?

3. What is the percentage increase in passenger numbers expected to want to transfer from Euston to St.Pancras and vice versa once HS2 is open, compared to the numbers that do so now?

4. Why is it worth spending £2m-£4m for what some will argue is not very many travellers, just to make the walk look slightly less unpleasant than it does now?

5. If anyone cares enough to even think about spending this sum of money, why has so little meaningful signing been provided to date? I'd happily arrange for useful signs in all conceivable useful places for a fraction of that figure!

So yes, interesting information and I reiterate my thanks for providing it, but it does all seem too little, too late, and just a typical consultants glossy document which stands every chance of looking much less attractive in reality.

 

[Non Multi]

I do like the simple wayfinding idea that links Southwark Tube station and Tate Modern. It has bright orange lampposts along the route.

 

[zwk500]

I appreciate this information and thank you for providing these links, however this raises some questions, namely:-

1. Why was this study not carried out when it was planned for Eurostar to run into St Pancras instead of Waterloo? Doing it now makes it around 20 years late!

2. This study appears to conclude that the necessary work will cost around £2m - £4m, in order to have pedestrians still walking from Euston to St.Pancras. Have I missed something?

3. What is the percentage increase in passenger numbers expected to want to transfer from Euston to St.Pancras and vice versa once HS2 is open, compared to the numbers that do so now?

4. Why is it worth spending £2m-£4m for what some will argue is not very many travellers, just to make the walk look slightly less unpleasant than it does now?

5. If anyone cares enough to even think about spending this sum of money, why has so little meaningful signing been provided to date? I'd happily arrange for useful signs in all conceivable useful places for a fraction of that figure!

So yes, interesting information and I reiterate my thanks for providing it, but it does all seem too little, too late, and just a typical consultants glossy document which stands every chance of looking much less attractive in reality.

I am not part of TfL, I can't answer those questions accurately. My guesses would be:
1. Studies were done 20 years ago, but HS2 is a game changer for passenger transfer (most E* passengers are heading for London destinations, not the WCML). Also. the nature of that road has changed dramatically in the last few years with the opening of the Francis Crick institute.
2. The study includes a quite substantial amount of work to the road environment including landscaping adjoining parks. Legal processes would be required and they aren't cheap because they involve lawyers.
3. I have not got a clue, sorry.
4. This is an excellent question. I suspect that the work will only be funded by safeguarded contributions from developers (are they still s.106?) rather than funded from any generic public funds.
5. Tbf, the signage that has been erected is ok, if you know where to look.

On your last point, the consultants have come up with a plan that answers the brief. If you think it's not enough, it's TfL's job to set the bar.

 

[MarkyT]

The TfL proposals look pretty good to me, although I'd like to see road traffic excluded for some more of, or indeed all, the route if possible (probably not). £2-4m is fairly small beer in the context of the whole HS2 project. The link would also connect HS2 (as well as residual classic Euston services) with Thameslink and HS1 Kent domestics, and will also join Euston much better to the Kings Cross Goods Yard developments. Even with the reduced Phase 2 East proposals now, many people coming from the further reaches of the MML will have a simple same station transfer at St Pancras to Thameslink replaced by a longer inter-station walk; that really has to be improved to be acceptable. Walking, if possible, is the optimum solution over the distance in question, possibly supplemented by some sort of trolley/pod link as discussed above for those who need it (that won't save any time if at grade, and would be far too expensive if grade-separated). Improvements will also be experienced by local residents and businesses in the area.

 

[Grimsby town]

I've seen quite a few people complaining about the walk from Euston to St Pancras (although mainly people who want to stop HS2). What i find strange is that the alternative is taking the plane and airports often require walking pretty significant distances with luggage especially if you mainly use hand luggage only like me.

Even with HS1 HS2 link, the trip out to the continent would probably required everyone to alight at Stratford, Ebbsfleet or Ashford to allow domestic passengers to be carried and reduce costs of a service. Yes a walk is slightly inconvenient but with Birmingham to Paris journeys being 4 hours even with the change, rail should be competitive.

The OP makes a good point that not everbody will be to easily walk the distance but I don't think an expensive people mover is needed. An autonomous pod or small manned electric or cycable vehicle should be fine. In my opinion the walk will actually be a nice break in the journey although it certainly needs a new eastern station access point at Euston.

 

[MarkyT]

The OP makes a good point that not everbody will be to easily walk the distance but I don't think an expensive people mover is needed. An autonomous pod or small manned electric or cycable vehicle should be fine. In my opinion the walk will actually be a nice break in the journey although it certainly needs a new eastern station access point at Euston.

Absolutely. The walk will be quicker for many people travelling light than waiting for and boarding some kind of surface vehicle to carry them, although having that facility as well will be useful for those who find the walk too difficult. The east side access at Euston is essential for this as you say. I see the three major stations as terminals of a massive 'London Railport', each operationally separate and far enough apart that an incident at one need not affect the others, but close enough that interchange on foot is straightforward and practical.

 

[XAM2175]

What i find strange is that the alternative is taking the plane and airports often require walking pretty significant distances with luggage especially if you mainly use hand luggage only like me.

Psychologically there is a very big difference between walking a distance that later turns out approximately 1 km but that is entirely within terminal buildings and very clearly signposted, and walking a distance that you know is approximately 1 km and that takes you to a completely different station, and that is almost entirely out in the open and on public roads.

The key to making the interchange palatable lies in moving the average person's perception of the task to be closer to that which they already accept from at airports.

 

[Nym]

Is Crossrail 2 not going to be a "Euston St-Pancras" station combining the two? Where perhaps this could include some form of walkway that makes use of the station infrastructure?

Other than that, there is already an automated people mover that will be operating between Euston and St Pancras with step free access at both ends, in fact, technically, there's three once the station upgrades are done (all associated with HS2 anyway).

 

[JonathanH]

Is Crossrail 2 not going to be a "Euston St-Pancras" station combining the two? Where perhaps this could include some form of walkway that makes use of the station infrastructure?

Maybe was, not is. I think Bald Rick indicated that the connection would most likely be inside the gated area.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs1-to-hs2-link-possible-in-the-future.193156/#post-4242257

For the time being, it only takes five to ten minutes via Doric Way and the cut through Somers Town. It would take longer than that to get down to the level of any connection through a future Crossrail 2 tunnel.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

However, I can see self-driving pods working on this route. Something similar has operated in the Netherlands for some years without requiring full segregation, and it should be fully proven by the time HS2 arrives. Numbers making the transfer won't be huge - even 100 on each Eurostar only works out at five per minute, roughly the capacity of a pod. This would be much cheaper than something like a VLR or a grade-separated peoplemover, which would also require either an unsightly elevated structure or an expensive tunnel.

There's a quick and dirty current-technology option as well: a bus.

Yes, I know there are plenty of tube trains, but I can see the attraction of a dedicated link, particularly if there's bus access to the HS2 element of Euston and to the HS1 part of St Pancras. The user will only have to follow a few signs to the bus rather than many signs to the other station, get on and pay (or pay and get on) and get off with everyone else at the destination without worrying about inadvertently heading to Walthamstow or Morden.

 

[edwin_m]

There's a quick and dirty current-technology option as well: a bus.

Yes, I know there are plenty of tube trains, but I can see the attraction of a dedicated link, particularly if there's bus access to the HS2 element of Euston and to the HS1 part of St Pancras. The user will only have to follow a few signs to the bus rather than many signs to the other station, get on and pay (or pay and get on) and get off with everyone else at the destination without worrying about inadvertently heading to Walthamstow or Morden.

There are several bus routes already, does anyone use them for this journey?

 

[JonathanH]

There are several bus routes already, does anyone use them for this journey?

I'd imagine that someone of limited mobility probably would go by bus (although it is easier to do that westbound than eastbound) but it is less than a half mile walk which most can manage.

I'd imagine that using the Victoria Line, you would walk further to the platforms at the two stations than the distance between Euston and St Pancras (Thameslink entrance).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There are several bus routes already, does anyone use them for this journey?

What I had intended to suggest, but on re-reading didn't, was a shuttle bus, running only from Euston to St Pancras and vice versa with no other stops.

Going any further with this thought is probably overly detailed, but you wouldn't want to brand it as a red London bus: rather it would be the HS1/HS2 Transfer Link or something, with livery to make it clear it was part of the high speed rail operation. Users wouldn't need to think of it as a service bus any more than they think of transfer buses between airport terminals as the same as the 1A that they get to the shops.

 

[zwk500]

What I had intended to suggest, but on re-reading didn't, was a shuttle bus, running only from Euston to St Pancras and vice versa with no other stops.

Going any further with this thought is probably overly detailed, but you wouldn't want to brand it as a red London bus: rather it would be the HS1/HS2 Transfer Link or something, with livery to make it clear it was part of the high speed rail operation. Users wouldn't need to think of it as a service bus any more than they think of transfer buses between airport terminals as the same as the 1A that they get to the shops.

Only problem with this is the traffic on Euston Road is terrible and the route via Brill place has got traffic calming measures to prevent rat-running. Yes in theory you could but a bus gate/bollard in but the whole point was to increase the number of people on foot rather than shift them between different vehicles. I think the idea of Pods which would take up not much more room than a bike are a good option for those less able or with lots of luggage. Their pickup/setdown areas wouldn't need to be so large, they could be flexible if there were any problems on the roads and they're more likely to be ready for each customer.

 

[MarkyT]

What I had intended to suggest, but on re-reading didn't, was a shuttle bus, running only from Euston to St Pancras and vice versa with no other stops.

Going any further with this thought is probably overly detailed, but you wouldn't want to brand it as a red London bus: rather it would be the HS1/HS2 Transfer Link or something, with livery to make it clear it was part of the high speed rail operation. Users wouldn't need to think of it as a service bus any more than they think of transfer buses between airport terminals as the same as the 1A that they get to the shops.

While a bus is a good solution for accessibility, the distance involved is always going to be quicker to walk for anyone who's fully able bodied. Bus frequency can always be cut to save money especially at quiet times which increases that journey time disbenefit. A significantly improved pedestrian link, with a wheeled alternative for those who wish to use it, but which might not be any faster is the best option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2022 ==

Only problem with this is the traffic on Euston Road is terrible and the route via Brill place has got traffic calming measures to prevent rat-running. Yes in theory you could but a bus gate/bollard in but the whole point was to increase the number of people on foot rather than shift them between different vehicles. I think the idea of Pods which would take up not much more room than a bike are a good option for those less able or with lots of luggage. Their pickup/setdown areas wouldn't need to be so large, they could be flexible if there were any problems on the roads and they're more likely to be ready for each customer.

And if autonomous and dispatched on demand, there would be less opportunity to reduce frequency or even curtail service completely at quieter times

 

[Turtle]

Psychologically there is a very big difference between walking a distance that later turns out approximately 1 km but that is entirely within terminal buildings and very clearly signposted, and walking a distance that you know is approximately 1 km and that takes you to a completely different station, and that is almost entirely out in the open and on public roads.

The key to making the interchange palatable lies in moving the average person's perception of the task to be closer to that which they already accept from at airports.

A very valid point.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If we leave the world of Speculative-Ideas-on-a-bank-holiday, the truth is that 2 points, much less than a mile apart and connected by three Underground lines, a walking route and service buses are already superserved. There’s no need for something extra: if the existing offer doesn’t suit a passenger they can get a taxi.

 

[MarkyT]

If we leave the world of Speculative-Ideas-on-a-bank-holiday, the truth is that 2 points, much less than a mile apart and connected by three Underground lines, a walking route and service buses are already superserved. There’s no need for something extra: if the existing offer doesn’t suit a passenger they can get a taxi.

About 500m apart at their closest point, but a much longer heavily polluted walk with a number of busy road crossings via the 'obvious' Euston Rd route if you exit the front of Euston station. All tube options for the transfer take longer than a walk by the time access to and from platforms are accounted for and a wait for a potentially crowded train. While I agree an expensive segregated people mover couldn't really be justified, you seem to be suggesting pedestrian facilities along the shortest plausible walking route should also not be improved, which is all the TfL proposal is doing along with a new side entrance to the station which is desirable for permeability of the station development anyway, and altogether improves the public realm in the area generally as well in the process.

 

[HSTEd]

If some form of covered walkway could be provided it would make the journey much more attractive - especially if it could be done inside the gatelines.

 

[MattRat]

If we leave the world of Speculative-Ideas-on-a-bank-holiday, the truth is that 2 points, much less than a mile apart and connected by three Underground lines, a walking route and service buses are already superserved. There’s no need for something extra: if the existing offer doesn’t suit a passenger they can get a taxi.

And then people wonder why Euston Road is so bad....

 

[edwin_m]

When Euston Square station is properly connected to Euston, the sub-surface lines will probably become the best route to/from St Pancras for those unwilling or unable to walk it.