GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[yorksrob]

I'll be going into Vic Eastern shortly.

Will be interesting to see how less busy it is overall !

 

[grid56126]

The base timetable already exists. Yes bids might need to be submitted, but there are more than enough trains East Croydon to Victoria & vice versa that you can run trains in already existing paths.

I appreciate that trying to rework the service entirely without an emergency plan & severely reduced resources (on crew and planning sides) may be difficult and have certainly experienced this myself over the past 18 months, but a shuttle should be the minimum attempt.

The paths exist between Victoria and Selhurst, but to fit them in at Windmill Bridge and to use platforms at East Croydon in a compliant manner is not as easy as a bit of paper and a pen. it is a significant piece of work that requires publication and signallers simplifiers produced on top of that. Despite the situation the industry is in, there are still procedures to adhere to. On the day additional stuff like this is often operated with clear understandings that over-ride planning processes, it is often my day job. Who knows if this will happen? I certainly don’t.

Victoria drivers are not all sitting spare - they are interworking with other depots on various routes including trains to and from London Bridge, which, as mentioned elsewhere includes interworking with breaks and booking on / off turns.

This is not beyond the ability of a number of people, however, it ain't just Southern drivers with Covid. The people that could do this work are stepping up to cover other jobs as well.

if you look at the PPM Figures on line for the past week you will see in excess of 50 cancellations on Southern (100+ on GTR). That is not a good position to be in if you are going to start playing with what on paper is a pretty robust and proven plan that is working - just - with severe resource issues across the board.

I can assure you that the drop in resources across all parts of the industry is worse now than it ever has been during the pandemic and after Christmas / New year mixing I cannot see it getting any better! Extraordinary times lead to extraordinary circumstances.

 

[gray1404]

How likely is this problem of GTR's Southern brand not running services out of Victoria going to continue beyond January 10th?

 

[physics34]

The paths exist between Victoria and Selhurst, but to fit them in at Windmill Bridge and to use platforms at East Croydon in a compliant manner is not as easy as a bit of paper and a pen. it is a significant piece of work that requires publication and signallers simplifiers produced on top of that. Despite the situation the industry is in, there are still procedures to adhere to. On the day additional stuff like this is often operated with clear understandings that over-ride planning processes, it is often my day job. Who knows if this will happen? I certainly don’t.

Victoria drivers are not all sitting spare - they are interworking with other depots on various routes including trains to and from London Bridge, which, as mentioned elsewhere includes interworking with breaks and booking on / off turns.

This is not beyond the ability of a number of people, however, it ain't just Southern drivers with Covid. The people that could do this work are stepping up to cover other jobs as well.

if you look at the PPM Figures on line for the past week you will see in excess of 50 cancellations on Southern (100+ on GTR). That is not a good position to be in if you are going to start playing with what on paper is a pretty robust and proven plan that is working - just - with severe resource issues across the board.

I can assure you that the drop in resources across all parts of the industry is worse now than it ever has been during the pandemic and after Christmas / New year mixing I cannot see it getting any better! Extraordinary times lead to extraordinary circumstances.

Gat Ex drivers all spare i presume? Just up and down the fast lines calling at Selhurst, Balham, Clapham, Vic would do. Just using plat 2 at east croydon to start and terminate. Minimal disruption. I get the point though that if the actual planners are so over stretched then i can see its impossible.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Gat Ex drivers all spare i presume? Just up and down the fast lines calling at Selhurst, Balham, Clapham, Vic would do. Just using plat 2 at east croydon to start and terminate. Minimal disruption. I get the point though that if the actual planners are so over stretched then i can see its impossible.

Don't forget the planners still have their day job to do. They cannot drop that to do ad-hoc work

 

[Southern Dvr]

Gat Ex Drivers are (to my understanding) doing a lot of Croydon-Gatwick-Brighton work with Selhurst Drivers doing the Croydon-Bridge legs.

 

[43066]

What about passengers who have travel like medical staff who can’t work from home or students who need to attend their colleges because their college isn’t offering home learning

I fully understand that their are significant staffing issues but the total removal of services to one of London’s main termini is very extreme.

This is one of the reasons their should have been some restrictions as soon as Omicron was found to protect those working in the public sector so that services could be continued

No, it’s one of the reasons why we need to move away from mass testing and isolating. This kind of thing - which is very bad indeed for the railway - will be continuing until that point.

 

[Bishopstone]

It would be useful if GatEx drivers had route knowledge into London Bridge. Maybe a project for the future!

 

[Surreytraveller]

It would be useful if GatEx drivers had route knowledge into London Bridge. Maybe a project for the future!

GatEx drivers have had loads of route knowledge taken off them over the years to save a few pounds

 

[Horizon22]

The paths exist between Victoria and Selhurst, but to fit them in at Windmill Bridge and to use platforms at East Croydon in a compliant manner is not as easy as a bit of paper and a pen. it is a significant piece of work that requires publication and signallers simplifiers produced on top of that. Despite the situation the industry is in, there are still procedures to adhere to. On the day additional stuff like this is often operated with clear understandings that over-ride planning processes, it is often my day job. Who knows if this will happen? I certainly don’t.

Victoria drivers are not all sitting spare - they are interworking with other depots on various routes including trains to and from London Bridge, which, as mentioned elsewhere includes interworking with breaks and booking on / off turns.

This is not beyond the ability of a number of people, however, it ain't just Southern drivers with Covid. The people that could do this work are stepping up to cover other jobs as well.

if you look at the PPM Figures on line for the past week you will see in excess of 50 cancellations on Southern (100+ on GTR). That is not a good position to be in if you are going to start playing with what on paper is a pretty robust and proven plan that is working - just - with severe resource issues across the board.

I can assure you that the drop in resources across all parts of the industry is worse now than it ever has been during the pandemic and after Christmas / New year mixing I cannot see it getting any better! Extraordinary times lead to extraordinary circumstances.

I am well aware of how bad the resources drop is across all areas of the industry and emergency timetables are absolutely understandable and indeed desirable to give a reliable and understood level of service. Yes stuff can be done on the day but the closer it gets to the actual service the more messy it gets and mistakes are more likely to creep in.

As I said, whilst I fully appreciate the difficulties (and indeed am personally impacted), no other TOC is planning anything as extreme as this.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So with everything from ECR going to LBG next week that will be 16TPH on the fasts to NXG so should an issue arise on this section will they divert SN's to VIC if its remaining open?

 

[Surreytraveller]

So with everything from ECR going to LBG next week that will be 16TPH on the fasts to NXG so should an issue arise on this section will they divert SN's to VIC if its remaining open?

Probably. But that'll lead to crew displacement, so don't assume that in that scenario everything that goes into Vic will come out again

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Probably. But that'll lead to crew displacement, so don't assume that in that scenario everything that goes into Vic will come out again

Indeed but also a queue of trains trying to get into ECR will soon cause crewing issues. Anyhow I'm not wishing this scenario on controllers, signallers and the train crew teams.

 

[jon0844]

No, it’s one of the reasons why we need to move away from mass testing and isolating. This kind of thing - which is very bad indeed for the railway - will be continuing until that point.

When the Government decided to stop everyone isolating merely because they came into contact with someone (maybe), they introduced the problem where people are spreading it before they get symptoms - and the latest variant often has people getting little to no symptoms (and most people probably thinking a runny nose or sneezing is just a common cold).

So with people told not to test until showing symptoms, it spread out of control and has helped cause these problems because even if the current strain is not considered a very big deal, you still have to isolate.

The best advice, especially when TOCs had no shortage of lateral flow kits, would have been daily testing at home before coming to work - so as not to infect depots and mess rooms, or even gateline staff, platform and passenger hosts etc. I've read about suggestions that daily testing could prevent isolating - just test yourself before work/going out. That does of course require everyone to have plentiful access to kits, and to know how to use them properly.

 

[Sunset route]

It is fairly easy to reverse trains from Victoria in platform 2 and use platforms 1 and 3 for the through services.

Except for like this weekend (so far) there is a cracked rail in some points at windmill bridge junction preventing platform 1 to Norwood junction, forcing all through trains to use platform 2 and platform 5 is being used by the East Croydon to Uckfield shuttle.

 

[gray1404]

I just hope this problem is actually resolved for the start of service on 11th of January.

 

[Robertj21a]

I just hope this problem is actually resolved for the start of service on 11th of January.

Hasn't it been suggested that it's unlikely to end on the 10th ?

 

[choochoochoo]

GatEx drivers have had loads of route knowledge taken off them over the years to save a few pounds

Story across GTR. Doesn't look like a good saving now

When the Government decided to stop everyone isolating merely because they came into contact with someone (maybe), they introduced the problem where people are spreading it before they get symptoms - and the latest variant often has people getting little to no symptoms (and most people probably thinking a runny nose or sneezing is just a common cold).

So with people told not to test until showing symptoms, it spread out of control and has helped cause these problems because even if the current strain is not considered a very big deal, you still have to isolate.

The best advice, especially when TOCs had no shortage of lateral flow kits, would have been daily testing at home before coming to work - so as not to infect depots and mess rooms, or even gateline staff, platform and passenger hosts etc. I've read about suggestions that daily testing could prevent isolating - just test yourself before work/going out. That does of course require everyone to have plentiful access to kits, and to know how to use them properly.

Exactly this. Also the fact that GTR Management decided from the safety of their Work-from-home environment to eradicate all social distancing requirements in mess rooms/taxis/ driving cabs and remove the need for testing when in close contact situations.

They still haven't reintroduced spare-at-home again. And they wonder why their sickness levels are through the roof ?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I just hope this problem is actually resolved for the start of service on 11th of January.

Doubt it

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly this. Also the fact that GTR Management decided from the safety of their Work-from-home environment to eradicate all social distancing requirements in mess rooms/taxis/ driving cabs and remove the need for testing when in close contact situations.

They still haven't reintroduced spare-at-home again. And they wonder why their sickness levels are through the roof ?

That is very poor response if this is the case Of course doesn't matter to them as they get their mgt fee whatever the costs or impacts.

 

[londontransit]

Someone claims to have spoken to two lots of Southern staff who claim this is related to an overrun of engineering works and not COVID Southern staff shortages.

Twitter

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Someone claims to have spoken to two lots of Southern staff who claim this is related to an overrun of engineering works and not COVID Southern staff shortages.

Twitter

I’m not sure it actually really matters the reason anyway, the end result is the same!

 

[43066]

When the Government decided to stop everyone isolating merely because they came into contact with someone (maybe), they introduced the problem where people are spreading it before they get symptoms - and the latest variant often has people getting little to no symptoms (and most people probably thinking a runny nose or sneezing is just a common cold).

So with people told not to test until showing symptoms, it spread out of control and has helped cause these problems because even if the current strain is not considered a very big deal, you still have to isolate.

The best advice, especially when TOCs had no shortage of lateral flow kits, would have been daily testing at home before coming to work - so as not to infect depots and mess rooms, or even gateline staff, platform and passenger hosts etc. I've read about suggestions that daily testing could prevent isolating - just test yourself before work/going out. That does of course require everyone to have plentiful access to kits, and to know how to use them properly.

I have to disagree.

Isolating when you’d merely been in contact with someone who’d been infected was what led the madness of the “pingdemic” over the summer. That wiped out quite a few train-crew messrooms, too, especially as some people walked around with their phones out, actively hoping to be pinged!

In the post vaccine world we need to stop behaving as if we are living in a state of dire health emergency. Covid is a minor respiratory virus that will often be asymptomatic and, if spread, will almost always lead to similar asymptomatic/mild infections in others. It’s madness to continue with constant testing and isolation - the sooner we move away from the delusion we can stop this thing spreading (or that spread even matters amongst a vaccinated population) the better.

As for testing everyone every day, just to go to work, good luck with that. I for one wouldn’t be prepared to countenance it. I don’t know many traincrew who would (absent those in training bubbles possibly). If I experience minor cold like symptoms then I have no intention of taking a Covid test because, as far as I’m concerned, I have a cold.

 

[Skimble19]

Someone claims to have spoken to two lots of Southern staff who claim this is related to an overrun of engineering works and not COVID Southern staff shortages.

Twitter

They’re wrong…

What exactly would GTR have to gain by pretending it was due to staff shortages, rather than just blaming NR if it was truly due to an engineering overrun? Nothing.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Someone claims to have spoken to two lots of Southern staff who claim this is related to an overrun of engineering works and not COVID Southern staff shortages.

Twitter

The engineering work will be completed on time. However, Network Rail will be using the opportunity to undertake some additional works which will cause platforms 13 and 14 at Clapham Junction to be out of use should any trains be diverted to Victoria

 

[30907]

The engineering work will be completed on time. However, Network Rail will be using the opportunity to undertake some additional works which will cause platforms 13 and 14 at Clapham Junction to be out of use should any trains be diverted to Victoria

They wouldn't be used anyway as the Up Slow is in use at Balham by terminating trains via Streatham Hill.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They wouldn't be used anyway as the Up Slow is in use at Balham by terminating trains via Streatham Hill.

You can cross from the fast to the slow north of Balham. There's nothing stopping them running a train up the slow through Balham between terminators anyway

 

[30907]

Hasn't it been suggested that it's unlikely to end on the 10th ?

The only "official" suggestions have been that a reduced timetable will be introduced by then, not a continuation of the engineering works one.

You can cross from the fast to the slow north of Balham.

At 20mph IIRC

There's nothing stopping them running a train up the slow through Balham between terminators anyway

True, but why would you when the Fasts are open?

 

[Surreytraveller]

The only "official" suggestions have been that a reduced timetable will be introduced by then, not a continuation of the engineering works one.

At 20mph IIRC

True, but why would you when the Fasts are open?

Because there's no platform on the Up Fast at Battersea Park, and there's no platform DOO equipment on the Up Fast at Wandsworth Common should 455s call there

 

[gray1404]

What date have GTR/Southern confirmed timetables up until currently?