Express Bus Service - A Missing Gap?

[overthewater]

The Panther LE body specifically has a front section (to about the middle of the vehicle) set up with a low floor. This makes it resemble a bus. The Stagecoach leather spec doesn't help. There are pictures here.

https://www.focustransport.org/2018/06/new-plaxton-vehicles-for-west-fife.html?m=1


I appreciate what they were trying to do and why but I didn't really see what they offer over and above something that is actually a bus with the appropriate provision for universal travel (which may well be why many routes do now just have double decker buses with high backed seats).

They do use decker's but they don't like using them full time because of the bridges etc. B8 gives passengers a coach service while also providing better access for Wheelchairs and better heating. Plus It does give the Park n ride services a uniform look, which helps as some passenger are snobs and don't like buses.

Have you seen the Demo spec? its all red..

 

[Caleb2010]

A lot of the ‘wish list’ services mentioned above have either been tried, and reverted to ordinary service buses serving all stops (Brighton’s Shuttle services spring to mind) - or failed dismally and didn’t need running to begin with!

or

There’s no demand from the public for the services mentioned!

As for the services tried already! Limited stop services tend to follow many normal services for part or all of the journey, the feasibility of running two vehicles along the same route, carrying the same number of passengers is not very cost effective and these times dictate it can’t be justified!

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

Some examples which come to mind:
Weymouth - Yeovil - Glastonbury - Bristol

Bournemouth - Blandford Forum - Shaftsbury - Mere - Warminster - Bath

The more I think about it, the more the example of the Stagecoach X5 cited earlier in the thread looks like an outlier, an exception rather than a model that can easily be replicated across the country. It serves some sizeable towns and cities (plus suburbs) along its route and there is no comparable rail route.

The end-to-end demand between Bristol and Weymouth is enough to warrant a train every 2 or 3 hours; the northern and southern ends of the route are covered by local stopping services to a greater or lesser extent, and between Street/Glastonbury and Yeovil there is the square root of not very much at all in terms of significant population settlements, certainly nothing to match the Stagecoach X5. Having an eye on the OP criteria, the A37 road is not entirely suitable for sustained high-speed running. Similarly for Bournemouth - Bath, the settlements en route aren’t going to generate traffic levels equivalent to Milton Keynes or Bedford. Also the A36 is much like the A37 in not being a particularly high-speed road.

There may be a small number of missed opportunities that have never been tried, but in almost every potentially viable case there have been such routes and so many didn't prove viable long term, despite the operator having a good crack at it.

Very much agree with this, not much has missed the attention of operators over the years. A couple of routes spring to mind that have come and gone; the Salisbury - Bath - Bristol X4 and the South Wales Transport ‘Shuttle’ between Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Bristol (with a brief extension to Bath at one time).

Love’em or hate’em, sometimes market forces will produce the answer “This isn’t working”.

 

[Llandudno]

The TransPeak route between Manchester and Buxton was cut after Northern increased their services in 2019. It now runs between Derby and Buxton, which itself does fill in the gap in rail between Matlock and Buxton.
Yes I know they aren’t really express type routes but do connect towns in the Peak District

Yep, the TransPeak fills the rail gap between Buxton and Matlock needless to say:
No through ticketing
No advertised connections for through bus/rail journeys
Poor timekeeping in the summer
No buses after 6pm

 

[Flying Snail]

Love’em or hate’em, sometimes market forces will produce the answer “This isn’t working”.

No. It produces the answer: This isn't profitable which is a very different thing.

If that criteria was applied to the railways in the same way we would also have seen mass service withdrawals. People are still decrying Beeching, if the full reach of his report had been implemented along with a continuation of market force criteria in the following decades the network would be a tiny fraction of what currently exists.

It is an absolute failure of policy, dogma, government and society that huge amounts of pubic money have been invested in road building to accommodate private vehicle use while allowing road based public transport to wither at the alter of market forces.

Even now when it is difficult to go more than a day or two without being hit over the head by climate change and sustainability virtue signalling there is no real plan or commitment to facilitate road based public transport as an alternative for our ruinous car addiction.

 

[Spaceflower]

I see market forces as a form of unfettered anthropogenic evolution.

But I hate posting things like this because someone will no doubt ask me to explain it. That would be counterintuitive.

But answer me this. What are the alternatives?

 

[Busaholic]

I see market forces as a form of unfettered anthropogenic evolution.

But I hate posting things like this because someone will no doubt ask me to explain it. That would be counterintuitive.

But answer me this. What are the alternatives?

Are you Will Self?

 

[Spaceflower]

I was intoxicated with work when I typed that

 

[SCH117X]

Yes, sorry, it stops at every stop on the lonely A171 moors road [sarcasm detected].

Quite likely on a summer Sunday with walkers making use of it. The same stopping pattern affects the Ripon-Harrogate-Leeds 36 as well with Sunday buses stopping where weekday buses rarely do and that is definately not an express in the urban areas as it provides a main local bus service for Ripon and Harrogate as well as now serving all stops in Leeds.

 

[Megafuss]

If this was pre covid with the A14 works complete then i'd say a fast Peterborough-Huntingdon-Cambridge service with high quilty kit would be a no brainer to me as the XC train service is terrible

 

[tbtc]

What would work though?

Rather than bemoaning the political situation (a situation I'm not exactly thrilled about either), what realistic options are there?

Something that doesn't directly compete with heavy rail (or, if it does, offers something different like penetrating a city centre that rail sits on the outskirts of, of via a different intermediate place), something that sticks to motorways/dual carriageways for large chunks (so isn't caught in suburban roads for long duration), something that isn't much over ninety minutes, something that can run at least every couple of hours (or more frequent)...

...and, not just one of the long list of favourite railway re-openings!

For example, here in Yorkshire we have a few towns without train stations (Maltby, Hemsworth, Holmfirth, Cleckheaton, Otley, Wetherby, Ripon etc), a few "destinations" close to motorway junctions (the Stagecoach X62 from Leeds to Hull stopped at the Freeport shopping centre at Junction 32 of the M62, there are other places like the IKEA at Birstall that could be a hub for the towns of north Kirklees), there are fairly fast roads into central Sheffield/ Leeds...

...but the division between Transdev (most of the towns north of Leeds/Bradford), First (urban operation in York, Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield), Arriva (the towns along the M62 from Selby to Huddersfield), Stagecoach (Dearne Valley) and First (urban operation in Doncaster, Rotherham, Sheffield) there's no one company in charge.

In recent years Stagecoach reintroduced some old links - the hourly X17 from Barnsley to Meadowhall/ Sheffield is like the X32/X33 were but via the A61 to serve southern Barnsley rather than the faster route via Dodworth to the Motorway - the X10 has now been chopped but was an hourly service from Barnsley to Leeds - similar improvements were made in the East Midlands (the southern bit of the X17 linked Matlock to Chesterfield/ Sheffield, the X1 linked Chesterfield to the East Midlands shopping outlet and Nottingham) - but they've not anything that competed with First/ Arriva. Transdev introduced the City Zap from Leeds to Manchester via Lindley on the outskirts of Huddersfield - but First/Arriva haven't been keen to take many risks on "express" routes (from what I can see). One Stagecoach service that's no more is the 757 from Nottingham to Doncaster via Mansfield/ Worksop - given that Nottingham has poor rail links to the north it felt like there may be a niche here but it didn't work out

In north east England, Go Ahead have revitalised a few longer distance services, bringing them under the City Lines brand, some of which have worked better than others (the X84/X85 to Hexham are about to get chopped, replaced by a regular 684), so I don't think there's much else to be done there (ordinarily I'd suggest more could be done down the Durham Coast, given the terrible train service and the fact it doesn't serve Dalton Park/ Peterlee etc) but the X9 is being replaced by diverting the X10, so that seems to be a dead end

I don't know the north west of England as well, but what links used to exist seem pretty depleted - the Transdev services from East Lancashire into Manchester have been mentioned as ones that remain but I guess it's a long time since the X61 from Blackpool to Manchester - but then the large rail improvements in the area (electrification, increased frequencies) make it harder to find a gap for a coach.

Beyond that... what gaps exist?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If this was pre covid with the A14 works complete then i'd say a fast Peterborough-Huntingdon-Cambridge service with high quilty kit would be a no brainer to me as the XC train service is terrible

Isn’t that the Busway - a fast link from Huntingdon to Cambridge?

I seem to recall that there used to be an X1 from Peterborough to Huntingdon but was only ever two hourly and it was about 30 years ago

 

[Spaceflower]

Quite likely on a summer Sunday with walkers making use of it. The same stopping pattern affects the Ripon-Harrogate-Leeds 36 as well with Sunday buses stopping where weekday buses rarely do and that is definately not an express in the urban areas as it provides a main local bus service for Ripon and Harrogate as well as now serving all stops in Leeds.

I'm going to assume by this response that I've used this bus more regularly than you have*. The bus used to carry the 'X' preffix and, as far as I'm aware, still follows the same route pattern. It is a relatively fast AND direct (that was my point) service between Middlesbrough and Whitby/Scarborough. It is far quicker and busier than the route via Loftus and the coast and far quicker, cheaper and more frequent than the rail service. In fact it is the main public transport route serving Whitby and RHB. And most traffic is boarding/alighting at the main destinations (Guisborough, Whitby rail sta., and RHB). You get the odd person getting off at Scaling Dam/The flask and odd other random place but not many.

*Actually, that's a lie, the last time I was using it was 8 or 9 years ago. Back then, there were definitely some 'x' and non 'x' variations running together but the difference was minimal - I'm not going to consult Google at all but just stick my thumb in the air and presume the route hasn't changed much at all since then - primarily because there's little scope to do so.

And I don't know why I'm arguing with you about the difference an 'x' makes or how the fact it can stop at any safe place it can on a desolate moor if requested significantly affects to the journey time or other level of service which is the important consideration, is it not?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm going to assume by this response that I've used this bus more regularly than you have*. The bus used to carry the 'X' preffix and, as far as I'm aware, still follows the same route pattern. It is a relatively fast AND direct (that was my point) service between Middlesbrough and Whitby/Scarborough. It is far quicker and busier than the route via Loftus and the coast and far quicker, cheaper and more frequent than the rail service. In fact it is the main public transport route serving Whitby and RHB. And most traffic is boarding/alighting at the main destinations (Guisborough, Whitby rail sta., and RHB). You get the odd person getting off at Scaling Dam/The flask and odd other random place but not many.

*Actually, that's a lie, the last time I was using it was 8 or 9 years ago. Back then, there were definitely some 'x' and non 'x' variations running together but the difference was minimal - I'm not going to consult Google at all but just stick my thumb in the air and presume the route hasn't changed much at all since then - primarily because there's little scope to do so.

And I don't know why I'm arguing with you about the difference an 'x' makes or how the fact it can stop at any safe place it can on a desolate moor if requested significantly affects to the journey time or other level of service which is the important consideration, is it not?

The X93 gained the X prefix a few years ago. It is express from Middlesbrough to Guisborough but it really doesn't stop on the moors despite observing all (the very few) stops; it grabs the odd punter in Aislaby.

From 1986, it was the 93 Middlesbrough - Whitby - Scarborough; journeys via Robin Hoods Bay were usually Whitby to Scarborough short workings as the 93A. Only in summer were there some truly express runs as the X93! Can't remember when it was simplified to be more consistent between Whitby and Scarborough.

Before 1986, the 93/93A/93B were Whitby to Scarborough only. These were supplemented by the 257/258 that ran to Middlesbrough but actually operated via Lingdale and were stoppers from Guisborough to Middlesbrough. I think in summer, there were a couple of X58s that ran non stop from Middlesbrough to Scarborough, bypassing Whitby!

 

[Megafuss]

Isn’t that the Busway - a fast link from Huntingdon to Cambridge?

I seem to recall that there used to be an X1 from Peterborough to Huntingdon but was only ever two hourly and it was about 30 years ago

You'd think so. But the Busway goes via St Ives, so takes a lot longer than a run down the A14.

 

[Spaceflower]

The X93 gained the X prefix a few years ago. It is express from Middlesbrough to Guisborough but it really doesn't stop on the moors despite observing all (the very few) stops; it grabs the odd punter in Aislaby.

From 1986, it was the 93 Middlesbrough - Whitby - Scarborough; journeys via Robin Hoods Bay were usually Whitby to Scarborough short workings as the 93A. Only in summer were there some truly express runs as the X93! Can't remember when it was simplified to be more consistent between Whitby and Scarborough.

Before 1986, the 93/93A/93B were Whitby to Scarborough only. These were supplemented by the 257/258 that ran to Middlesbrough but actually operated via Lingdale and were stoppers from Guisborough to Middlesbrough. I think in summer, there were a couple of X58s that ran non stop from Middlesbrough to Scarborough, bypassing Whitby!

The bus type would probably make a difference to be fair. The full route was being operated by Scanias?. They were good, very good. But I think there were some smaller rattlers on the short workings? I wouldn't like to do a full trip on one of these, especially when it's busy. There was also a free bus for Sainsburys customers between RHB and the Eskdale. I think I blagged that once or twice but would put money on it having been binned now.

 

[JGurney]

It is a relatively fast AND direct (that was my point) service between Middlesbrough and Whitby/Scarborough.

It is relatively direct, but it diverts off the main road to serve Aislaby between Guisborough and Whitby and off it again between Whitby and Scarborough to serve Robin Hood's Bay and Fylingthorpe, and carries local passengers between Cloughton, Burniston and Scarborough although these are also connected by a more frequent local service. Since the introduction of double-deckers it no longer diverts off the main road to serve Stainsacre due to the low bridge. The old X61 used to stick to the main road missing out all those villages and also bypassed Guisborough: while the 93 is slower, the frequency is much improved.

It is ... far quicker, cheaper and more frequent than the rail service.

Yes, it certainly is for journeys between Middlesbrough and Whitby, although the routes run a few miles apart and serve different places in-between. I think it must be close to unique among British bus services in that it is a faster connection than the train over that distance.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The bus type would probably make a difference to be fair. The full route was being operated by Scanias?. They were good, very good. But I think there were some smaller rattlers on the short workings? I wouldn't like to do a full trip on one of these, especially when it's busy. There was also a free bus for Sainsburys customers between RHB and the Eskdale. I think I blagged that once or twice but would put money on it having been binned now.

The route had a mix of Olympians, VRs and Leopards in the mid 80s before having Tigers in the 90s and then in 1999, it got Daf coaches. They lasted til 2007 (?) before it went to buses - Prismas, then Scanias, then e400 before the B9s. Might be a while til they get replaced

 

[Spaceflower]

The route had a mix of Olympians, VRs and Leopards in the mid 80s before having Tigers in the 90s and then in 1999, it got Daf coaches. They lasted til 2007 (?) before it went to buses - Prismas, then Scanias, then e400 before the B9s. Might be a while til they get replaced

Sorry, but someone get me an interpreter

It is relatively direct, but it diverts off the main road to serve Aislaby between Guisborough and Whitby and off it again between Whitby and Scarborough to serve Robin Hood's Bay and Fylingthorpe, and carries local passengers between Cloughton, Burniston and Scarborough although these are also connected by a more frequent local service. Since the introduction of double-deckers it no longer diverts off the main road to serve Stainsacre due to the low bridge. The old X61 used to stick to the main road missing out all those villages and also bypassed Guisborough: while the 93 is slower, the frequency is much improved.


Yes, it certainly is for journeys between Middlesbrough and Whitby, although the routes run a few miles apart and serve different places in-between. I think it must be close to unique among British bus services in that it is a faster connection than the train over that distance.

The old x9 Tyne-Tees express I think had a pretty competitive journey time compared to the direct rail service! Incidentally, I also used this to connect with 93 whenever travelled back home.

 

[Simon75]

There used to to be a X23/X18 Sheffield to Hanley (Stoke-on-Trent), First Potteries gradually cut the service and withdrew it (at one stage split the service as 118/218 at Buxton ) jointly running with First South Yorkshire.
Although D&G 16 runs Hanley -Buxton and a Stagecoach 65 to Sheffield-Buxton, times don't coordinate

 

[JGurney]

The X93 .... doesn't stop on the moors despite observing all (the very few) stops;

It does if requested: I've seen it happen many times and done it myself on occasions (Birk Brow, Moorsholm turning, Scaling Dam, Tranmire turning, Ugthorpe turning, Egton turning, etc). There are no physical bus stop flags between Slapewath and Aislaby (although there is a shelter at the Ugthorpe turning) but the Arriva app. shows and gives timings for 'virtual' stops all along the Moors Road, and I have never known a 93 fail to stop if requested. I have occasionally had new drivers ask me where the bus usually stops after I have rung the bell.

 

[Simon75]

First Potteries 101, though not an express route rus Hanley to Stafford via Stone. Runs via the A34, but services Newcastle Under Lyme , Stone and Walton industrial estate in Stone.

 

[PG]

Sorry, but someone get me an interpreter

Model names of PSVs manufactured by Leyland, Bristol, DAF, Optare, Scania, Alexander Dennis and Volvo

 

[Spaceflower]

It does if requested: I've seen it happen many times and done it myself on occasions (Birk Brow, Moorsholm turning, Scaling Dam, Tranmire turning, Ugthorpe turning, Egton turning, etc). There are no physical bus stop flags between Slapewath and Aislaby (although there is a shelter at the Ugthorpe turning) but the Arriva app. shows and gives timings for 'virtual' stops all along the Moors Road, and I have never known a 93 fail to stop if requested. I have occasionally had new drivers ask me where the bus usually stops after I have rung the bell.

I think he meant more as a result of demand rather than schedule. My alighting point certainly got honed the more I used it!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It does if requested: I've seen it happen many times and done it myself on occasions (Birk Brow, Moorsholm turning, Scaling Dam, Tranmire turning, Ugthorpe turning, Egton turning, etc). There are no physical bus stop flags between Slapewath and Aislaby (although there is a shelter at the Ugthorpe turning) but the Arriva app. shows and gives timings for 'virtual' stops all along the Moors Road, and I have never known a 93 fail to stop if requested. I have occasionally had new drivers ask me where the bus usually stops after I have rung the bell.

I think he meant more as a result of demand rather than schedule. My alighting point certainly got honed the more I used it!

Exactly. It observes stops en route but I can't recall seeing people board/alight at places like Scaling Dam. Charltons and Aislaby, yes, but you must be more fortunate that I in seeing people getting on/off in the heart of the moors.

Sorry, but someone get me an interpreter

As has been said, they were vehicle types. Just that it shows how the service went from having a mix of buses and coaches, to having coaches, and then back to buses. To illustrate (credit to John Carter, Paul Claxton, Ken Weaver, Peter Barclay):

1986-09-06 UGR 697R Bristol VRT-ECW 697 of United, Scarborough

Explore John Carter 1962's 79561 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

1988-02-16 NWT 710M Leyland National 1428 of United, Whitby

Explore John Carter 1962's 79561 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

United Automobile 132 MRP 228P

United Automobile 132 MRP 228P Whitby based Leyland Leopard Alexander in Middlesbrough Bus Station working one of its usual duties on service 93 to Whitby and Scarborough late 80s This vehicle was originally in the United Counties fleet and was later renumbered 1151 by United Automobile

www.flickr.com

Tees & District 1329 C36CWT is seen in Whitby.

Explore 47413PART2's 11151 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

2000-07-05 V208 DJR Daf SB3000-Plaxton 1208 of Arriva NE, Whitby

Explore John Carter 1962's 79561 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

2009-06-08 N516 XVN Mercedes Benz 0405-Optare Prisma 3016 of Arriva NE, Whitby

Explore John Carter 1962's 79561 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Arriva North East 7504 (NK57DYA) - 12-02-14 (02)

Rear view of ADL Enviro 400, 7504 (NK57DYA), pictured departing from Middlesbrough bus station and sporting its 'Sight Seeker' branding for service 93/X93 between Middlesbrough, Whitby and Scarborough - 12th February 2014.

www.flickr.com

It's had a selection of vehicles over the years. The current fleet is arguably some of the best. However, it does reflect how it has changed between bus and coach, and as an express and less so.

You'd think so. But the Busway goes via St Ives, so takes a lot longer than a run down the A14.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek. With a frequent service down the Busway, I just don't think you'll get a fast bus down the A14.

Just checking Timetable World and there was an X51 about 20 years ago but it only went about 3/4 times a day. Perhaps it's just one of those routes that looks like it should sustain an express but the figures just aren't there.

 

[CBlue]

You'd think so. But the Busway goes via St Ives, so takes a lot longer than a run down the A14.

Given the levels of congestion on the A14 (I commute along there by car 5 times a week) a journey would definitely take longer than the Busway does!


Stagecoach have had a punt at a Huntingdon - Cambridge fast several times.

The previously mentioned X51 wasn't a success, along with the X6 which ran Peterborough-Huntingdon-Cambridge-Stansted Airport.

Pre covid there was also some experimenting with running peak time B services direct via the A14 into Huntingdon from the end of the Busway, they didn't last long either.

 

[SCH117X]

*Actually, that's a lie, the last time I was using it was 8 or 9 years ago. Back then, there were definitely some 'x' and non 'x' variations running together but the difference was minimal - I'm not going to consult Google at all but just stick my thumb in the air and presume the route hasn't changed much at all since then - primarily because there's little scope to do so.

And I don't know why I'm arguing with you about the difference an 'x' makes or how the fact it can stop at any safe place it can on a desolate moor if requested significantly affects to the journey time or other level of service which is the important consideration, is it not?

Your choice - I was merely pointing out services when the hills, dales and moors are alive with walkers stop at places where they normally shoot straight past. The route did change when double deckers were introduced as it down turns round in Goathland and goes back up the hill in both directions making for a nominally slower southbound service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Your choice - I was merely pointing out services when the hills, dales and moors are alive with walkers stop at places where they normally shoot straight past. The route did change when double deckers were introduced as it down turns round in Goathland and goes back up the hill in both directions making for a nominally slower southbound service.

Sorry but is there some crossed purposes here?

You're talking about Goathland so that's the Coastliner taking the A169. I'd agree that the route there does have many more intermediate locations where you're likely to have walkers and general tourists hopping off e.g. Hole of Horcum etc.

@william was referring the X93 and the "lonely moors road" that is the A171; that seems less attractive for intermediate stops but can only suggest that it's because it's at the margins of the moors (rather than going through the heart of it as per Coastliner) and the attractions of Danby and Castleton don't have the pull of HoH, Goathland etc.

 

[Dai Corner]

An interesting example is the Bristol-south Wales express services.

Introduced in the mid 1960s with the opening of the Severn Bridge and M4 motorway they did well for decades but what finally killed them off commercially was the ending of tolls on the bridge. All that remains now is an hourly tendered service between Chepstow, the regional shopping and leisure centre at Cribbs Causeway and Bristol city centre.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

An interesting example is the Bristol-south Wales express services.

Introduced in the mid 1960s with the opening of the Severn Bridge and M4 motorway they did well for decades but what finally killed them off commercially was the ending of tolls on the bridge. All that remains now is an hourly tendered service between Chepstow, the regional shopping and leisure centre at Cribbs Causeway and Bristol city centre.

Very true - the routes were reasonably popular given the cost of tolls vs the bus ticket. Once the tolls went, the market largely disappeared. Sadly, many express routes have been seen off by a combination of:

• Improved rail services
• Burgeoning congestion
• The need to maintain links when rationalising routes to meet demand so a former limited stop is rerouted to cover a particular village or estate