Transpennine Industrial Relations

[Starmill]

…which has nothing to do with spares at home.

That would imply the spare ratio is much too high and needs reducing. Somehow I don't imagine that's true.

 

[43066]

Perhaps not. But where other employers are being required to take steps to safeguard their workforces, it seems not unreasonable for the railway to take steps as appropriate to the situation. If this means reducing the number of warm bodies cluttering up messrooms then so be it.

I’m not sure to what extent employers are still required to take steps - the advice is to work from home if possible, shielding has long since ended. I get the union need to be seen to be asking for this kind of thing (seemingly along with masks ), but why not simply negotiate for it without actually actually tearing up an agreement?! It’s largely academic most of the time anyway given how thinly stretched train crew depots are.

As you say, it is about what is reasonable. Notably impairing the ability of the employer to reliably provide its services is not, in my mind, a reasonable measure to take. Instead, other measures should be considered to mitigate risk.

To be fair I don’t think services would be impaired to any great extent by spare from home (as opposed to other Covid related absence), simply because sitting spare happens so rarely! To give some idea, if we still had spare from home, I wouldn’t have attended work any less over the last couple of months.

If you honestly believe it’s a good idea to risk traincrew health by having high levels of staff sat doing nothing all day in messrooms, potentially infecting one another and then having an entire link of drivers or conductors isolating then there’s nothing more to argue here.

It’s not really risking anyone’s health though, is it, when virtually everyone is vaccinated?! I’m sure most of us are happy to go and socialise in crowded pubs and restaurants on our days off. This kind of thinking needs to be moved away from and we need to get back to normal.

I don’t believe that at all, there has been minimal disruption, if any over the last two years from traincrew working from home. The largest disruption has been from staff testing positive whilst on duty or the ‘pingdemic’, not spare from home working.

Agree with this - “spare” is largely an academic concept at the moment, hence I can’t understand why XC ASLEF are being so heavy handed about this.

 

[O L Leigh]

I must be imagining the figures I've heard in that case.

You have numbers that specifically state the number of cancellations due to being unable to get spares from home to come in to cover?

That would imply the spare ratio is much too high and needs reducing. Somehow I don't imagine that's true.

No, it means that there is currently no rest day working agreement in place.

 

[Starmill]

No, it means that there is currently no rest day working agreement in place.

And there clearly isn't going to be if the price is an increase in unproductive turns. There is very careful focus on the value for money of staffing everywhere.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am back to working from home for the remainder of this week due to the ongoing problems. Two trains in a row cancelled this morning, 40 minutes late into work. Friday there was three in a row, quite late home and I had taken a half day most of which was lost getting home. If the same happens some days this week I will miss family Christmas get togethers.

I despise working from home but have been left without much choice, if I as a railway employee in this situation take this view, the wider public view is likely to be less sympathetic. With my passenger head on, I don't really care anymore what the problem is, but it needs sorting otherwise we will lose yet more passengers from the railway and then we all lose.

Not that I know much about what is being discussed but having commuted for the last 18 months through the pandemic, prior to this any TPE cancellations due to staffing were very very rare, to the stage where I cannot remember the last time it happened due to something that wasn't a failed train/infrastructure issue etc. Although how many of the cancellations during disruption were actually because people could not get in from home in time I do not know!

 

[Starmill]

The irony to some of the statements above of course is that the levels of disruption have been far far higher due to the current situation than when the previous agreement was in place.

Not having the agreement also controls short term spending. Which is precisely what the Department is looking for.

 

[Fokx]

That is a separate issue. I'm sure the increases would have been postponed if the resultant disruption had been anticipated far enough in advance.

It isn’t a separate issue though. It is the reason for the current disruption and why there are atleast 30 service cancellations and alterations a day currently.

It's kept the unions happy but it's not really 'worked' in any true sense of the word. Before Covid, traincrew weren't sitting in the depot for fun.

The point of XSP is temporary, no-one is asking for it to be permanent, just to be maintained whilst the effects of Omnicron on the wider population are seen and the return of restrictions.

Any job where you need to come to work risks infection. That's life. But if adequate control measures are in place, there is no reason why being spare in the depot need be unduly dangerous.

Because in most cases it’s unnecessary to have several staff not doing anything in an unventilated room for 9 hours a day. As I’ve said, XSP doesn’t mean that every member of staff stays at home, but reduces the physical numbers of staff in contact with one another

I must be imagining the figures I've heard in that case.

I do believe you are. Most cancellations were not caused by staff being spare from home, infact the number was minimal. Services were cancelled for other reasons, but not largely from spare from home.

It's not much use having only one or two drivers once they're used up...

But that is the nature with transport, even if you had say 8 drivers spare and you’ve got 10 trains requiring crew, you wouldn’t be in any better situation. This is the nature of all transport industries.

But that doesn't justify rejecting a return to being spare from the depot across the company.

In your opinion as someone who presumably isn’t affected by said changes? It is not the option of the unions or health and safety representatives who represent the staff working in said locations

 

[Starmill]

I am back to working from home for the remainder of this week due to the ongoing problems. Two trains in a row cancelled this morning, 40 minutes late into work. Friday there was three in a row, quite late home and I had taken a half day most of which was lost getting home. If the same happens some days this week I will miss family Christmas get togethers.

I despise working from home but have been left without much choice, if I as a railway employee in this situation take this view, the wider public view is likely to be less sympathetic. With my passenger head on, I don't really care anymore what the problem is, but it needs sorting otherwise we will lose yet more passengers from the railway and then we all lose.

Not that I know much about what is being discussed but having commuted for the last 18 months through the pandemic, prior to this any TPE cancellations due to staffing were very very rare, to the stage where I cannot remember the last time it happened due to something that wasn't a failed train/infrastructure issue etc. Although how many of the cancellations during disruption were actually because people could not get in from home in time I do not know!

I imagine that like most operators, the company will need to revert to an emergency timetable if (when) the government impose more covid restrictions this week / next week. So that will probably help.

 

[mike57]

I don't think anyone can deny that the current TransPennine Express service is 'notably impaired' by a shortage of train crew.

Today no trains from Scarborough towards York from 08:34 to 12:34, which has run but 13.34 is showing as cancelled and 14.34 doesnt look promising as incoming service is cancelled. That is as bad as the height of 2018 fiasco and it renders the service unusable. You could travel via Hull I suppose but I dont know if ticket acceptance is in place, and its going to add a good 1h 30m to your journey.

 

[VauxhallNova]

To what extent is the Castlefield Corridor contributing to the recent reliability issues?

 

[Starmill]

Today no trains from Scarborough towards York from 08:34 to 12:34, which has run but 13.34 is showing as cancelled and 14.34 doesnt look promising as incoming service is cancelled. That is as bad as the height of 2018 fiasco and it renders the service unusable. You could travel via Hull I suppose but I dont know if ticket acceptance is in place, and its going to add a good 1h 30m to your journey.

Indeed. Going down to two hourly only between York and Scarborough would be one solution.

 

[mike57]

Indeed. Going down to two hourly only between York and Scarborough would be one solution.

Much better to run York Scarborough as a shuttle.

 

[LittleAH]

This was refused, and yet the majority of Bridgewater House are continuing to work from home (where they can).

Why the comparison? Of course office staff will work from home where possible - but you can't drive a train from home.

The point of XSP is temporary, no-one is asking for it to be permanent, just to be maintained whilst the effects of Omnicron on the wider population are seen and the return of restrictions.

But as you well know, RDW was going to be pulled before Omicron was a thing. It's really not a good look for Aslef at all. The saving grace is, that with restrictions likely, a botch is found.

 

[Starmill]

. The saving grace is, that with restrictions likely, a botch is found.

If there's one thing we've been consistently good at, it's bodge solutions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2021 ==

. The saving grace is, that with restrictions likely, a botch is found.

If there's one thing we've been consistently good at, it's bodge solutions.

 

[43066]

But as you well know, RDW was going to be pulled before Omicron was a thing. It's really not a good look for Aslef at all. The saving grace is, that with restrictions likely, a botch is found.

I bet that won’t happen…

 

[muz379]

Isn't that exactly what the data should be used for - checking whether the job is being done correctly?

Thats one of the uses , although there then needs to be a development of when and where the guard should use their discretion and this should be outlined . Some guards are by there sheer nature more averse to confrontation over ticketing issues than others and analysing scanning and then sales data might highlight those that are . But currently there are no performance metrics or requirements for discretion or need to confront passengers . I think there are many more uses for the data that the company are yet to use though , uses that might help them better plan services etc.

Yes, work from home if you can. The whole point of having spares sat in the depot is that you can respond quickly to disruption, illness etc.

If you've got to allow an hour for the driver to come in, they may as well be on leave. It's utterly useless.

There is no way that you can properly work from home, if your work is "being spare". In the last 2 years there have been countless situations where services have been needlessly cancelled or delayed - purely because traincrew are spare from home, rather than spare in the depot.

It's not much use having only one or two drivers once they're used up...

I know at my TOC there were standby drivers and guards in ready to cover services at a minutes notice . If one of those is used then you can call a person in from spare to replace them , you obviously tailor the numbers of standby to the location dependent on services . With the reduced timetable and quieter roads I never heard of it causing any major delay or cancellation . And certainly nothing to the level that we are currently experiencing with numbers of staff catching covid some of them no doubt in the workplace .


Theres also the argument over only coming to work for the services you are booked to when spare rather than sitting around for 4 hours to drive a train later .

 

[DorkingMain]

Isn't that exactly what the data should be used for - checking whether the job is being done correctly?

In a role that involves a significant amount of discretion, what is "correctly"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2021 ==

To be fair to say it’s done without consultation isn’t true. It was consulted and discussed during productivity talks.

Before or after it was introduced and people were asked to start doing it? General word I get from most TOCs is that guards were given the scanners or scanning apps, and then the discussion about the implications was had afterwards.

 

[Fokx]

Before or after it was introduced and people were asked to start doing it? General word I get from most TOCs is that guards were given the scanners or scanning apps, and then the discussion about the implications was had afterwards.

Usually followed by a very brief email of how to use the hardware that’s not been signed off or given a method of working, of which most staff don’t read or miss in a sea of emails, and then of course when the technology fails there’s no explanation on how to get it working again

 

[DorkingMain]

Usually followed by a very brief email of how to use the hardware that’s not been signed off or given a method of working, of which most staff don’t read or miss in a sea of emails, and then of course when the technology fails there’s no explanation on how to get it working again

Topped off by "come and see me in your own time if you need help with how to work it" from your manager, or "Such and such is your scanner trainer for this depot, speak to them" and then you don't see them for the next 6 months.

 

[800001]

Where has that happened? No location that I visit, including those run by other TOCs have had additional capacity provided.



Has service been “notably impaired”? That you can see how it might be does not mean that it has. As I mentioned earlier, standby drivers are rostered and required to attend to provide short-notice cover.

York!! Additional facilities for Northern and TPE In car park next to platform 11, and Lner have cabins adjacent to to plat 1 and longstay carpark

 

[Horizon22]

You are technically available for work, but in practice means you need to be advised the day before if you’re needed, due to the commute in (some people live two hours plus from their depots). You can’t be used at a few minutes notice as would usually be the case.

Spare at home is I have found somewhat useless because normally spare capacity is needed relatively quickly. Adding in the commute etc. means it was rarely utilised. Not entirely sure its relevant overall though to this dispute.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Is there any reason why they haven't got ticket acceptance with TfW in place? My Manchester Piccadilly to Airport service was cancelled and TfW was the next one but I found out after taking it when TPE replied to my message that I should have waited for the Northern service.

The guard was happy enough when I presented my ticket and explained that my booked service was cancelled but I guess he could have taken a stricter view.

 

[Horizon22]

Usually followed by a very brief email of how to use the hardware that’s not been signed off or given a method of working, of which most staff don’t read or miss in a sea of emails, and then of course when the technology fails there’s no explanation on how to get it working again

One of the most frustrating things about new technology I see. There are some fantastic advances out there and tools available to help staff with their jobs but the initial training is never really followed through properly and items end up sitting in their bag unused, or not updated, or in a locker, or they've only used it once and then it stops working as expected. There's a lot of scope to make jobs easier, but the overall introduction of things that aren't safety critical needs more time and effort - both from those introducing it AND those using it.

 

[dk1]

I much prefer spare at work. You know you normally get told to scram after 4-5 hours whereas as at home I can’t switch off just in case even though you know there’s practically nothing you can do in the last couple of hours apart from a trip to the depot or a shunt.

 

[the sniper]

General word I get from most TOCs is that guards were given the scanners or scanning apps, and then the discussion about the implications was had afterwards.

For all the talk of lazy Guards, the move from predominantly paper orange ticket stock and Avantix to not knowing if something being presented on a phone or sheet of paper even is or isn't a 'ticket', let alone whether it's valid for the journey being undertaken, and the PDAs/Scanners, where the core functionality either wasn't initially available or explained, was a disaster for revenue protection. I know Guards who largely gave up on doing revenue seriously because they no longer had any confidence in knowing whether they were being shown a ticket or not...

 

[Moonshot]

Spare at home is I have found somewhat useless because normally spare capacity is needed relatively quickly. Adding in the commute etc. means it was rarely utilised. Not entirely sure its relevant overall though to this dispute.

Absolute zero relevance. We used it at our depot in the early days of this outbreak simply to keep staff apart as a result of a reduction in services. But now that staff themselves are falling down like flies, there wont be any spares at home as they will be covering jobs.

 

[Meerkat]

In a role that involves a significant amount of discretion, what is "correctly"?

Within the bounds of discretion. I would imagine the first use would be to pick up the outliers, the guards who are at the bottom of the table.
Really you only need to deal with the outliers. Word will get around that it is being monitored and acted on, and if the group are anything like most jobs then the mick takers getting chased will make the good guards happier (having colleagues taking the mick effort wise seems to be more demotivating than not having one's own efforts recognised)

 

[O L Leigh]

York!! Additional facilities for Northern and TPE In car park next to platform 11, and Lner have cabins adjacent to to plat 1 and longstay carpark

OK, so that’s one location. So far it’s looking very much like the exception rather than the rule.

I know at my TOC there were standby drivers and guards in ready to cover services at a minutes notice . If one of those is used then you can call a person in from spare to replace them , you obviously tailor the numbers of standby to the location dependent on services . With the reduced timetable and quieter roads I never heard of it causing any major delay or cancellation . And certainly nothing to the level that we are currently experiencing with numbers of staff catching covid some of them no doubt in the workplace .

Thank you for having the patience to explain this fully. I’m afraid that I didn’t have enough of it earlier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2021 ==

And there clearly isn't going to be if the price is an increase in unproductive turns. There is very careful focus on the value for money of staffing everywhere.

What increase in unproductive turns?

There would be no increase in the number of spare turns appearing in the roster as a consequence of having spares at home. It is simply a different way of utilising traincrew while helping to reduce unnecessary mixing by ensuring that those members of staff not actually required (hence “spare”) are not cluttering up the depots.

As for the talk about getting back to normal, I do broadly agree with that. However, the new variant is proving far more transmissible, even among those who have been vaccinated. I would have expected a loosening of the restrictions had things been progressing as they were earlier this year, but regrettably they are not. As a consequence I do wonder whether now is the right time to be relaxing restrictions or whether we should continue with the safeguards we currently have.

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately the reality is that staff costs are under much more focus now than they have been for the past few decades, and anything which brings down productivity is in the firing line. It will be difficult enough to keep sensible spare ratios in the conventional sense even. If people don't like that, that's their view and they're entitled to it.

 

[O L Leigh]

Reduction in spare cover will only result in greater levels of cancellations. Spare cover as it stands now is being fully utilised.

As for spares at home affecting productivity, I’ve yet to see any evidence to support the premise.