Transpennine Industrial Relations

[dk1]

Don't get them started on that again!

Should have had to pop down to Currys on your unpaid break to buy it yourself, like someone in a 'proper' job would...

Spoil sport haha!!

PS What’s an unpaid break?

 

[Fokx]

Genuine question (and this isn't meant to inflame) - what personal details are transmitted from yourself to the customer in this action?

Also what is the difference between that end result with it having been stamped by a Ziffa with the headcode entered onto it?

My username which is attributed to my staff number, the time and date I scanned the ticket and providing I’ve set up the device correctly the headcode of said service. This is all recorded by the device and can be seen and monitored by whoever has permission to view it such as my management or the revenue team.

A scanned ticket which is clipped records every single detail and train the passenger has taken, so it might say for a single A to B trip:

Entry barriers Station A 0753
Train 1K09 at 0834
Train 2J53 at 0953
Train 1F62 at 1054
Exit barriers Station B 1230

You can basically follow the passengers movements across the rail network, and know everything from which barriers they’ve used, which operator they’ve used, what trains they’ve used and how many times that individual ticket has been checked (if at all).
A ticket marked with either just the date or headcode (not both) doesn’t tell you when the train was taken, or the route taken, just that the ticket was used. Most tickets which are marked would not usually be marked further, particularly if the passenger has taken a longer journey as you wouldn’t be able to see the ticket information.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

So you're suggesting that tickets were never clipped or cancelled previously? They were only ever looked at and read?

No, I’m suggesting that it’s much much harder to do (and to intentionally defraud) when a ticket is scanned because of the information it holds and records compared to just physically viewing a ticket, or marking a paper ticket with the date.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

They have the best rdw agreement on the network.

Not anymore, it’s ended.

There is no RDW agreement currently and that is the reason for the current disruption

 

[Starmill]

No, I’m suggesting that it’s much much harder to do (and to intentionally defraud) when a ticket is scanned because of the information it holds and records compared to just physically viewing a ticket, or marking a paper ticket with the date.

But that isn't actually a fundamental change to the process is it? It's an incremental change. Same as how doors have changed from being on hinges to sliding. They're still performing the same function, they're just now doing so better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

Don't get them started on that again!

Should have had to pop down to Currys on your unpaid break to buy it yourself, like someone in a 'proper' job would...

What a bizarre thing to say. When do you ever hear of office staff purchasing their own IT equipment for work use? That would be very very unusual indeed.

Some second rate employers do require staff to purchase their uniform, which they must then wear to work. This is regulated in terms of the cost and notice provided, and to be honest in my view should be prohibited.

 

[muz379]

That's like the argument about sharing profits - it only seems to apply to profits and not losses.
I assume the principle of sharing gains with staff means that when costs go up due to better safety measures etc the staff will volunteer a pay cut?

It fairly often actually seems to be the case that losses result in pay freezes or job losses , staff have skin in the game in that respect . Dont see why its so unreasonable to expect productivity gains that are made through staff agreeing to work differently are also shared .

Yeah, I've known staff like that too. Most understand that they are paid for a job and shouldnt need paying extra to make them do it. If the guards were upselling or pushing the trolley round too then that would be different.

Plenty of jobs have a performance related pay incentive , we sunddenly saying that most senior managers are so lazy they need paying extra to motivate them to meet targets . Or are we accepting that bonus's for additional performance are widely accepted in the world of work ?

And people wonder why the railway costs so much!

Not content with having lost the debunked argument that a few pence a ticket scan is making the industry so insustainably expensive you have now turned on another grade , nice .

 

[LittleAH]

As usual on here people want to see everyone else pushed down to the lowest common denominator. It’s sad to see people (often those not on big incomes themselves) being triggered by tech payments to other modestly paid workers such as train crew, which are paid once and once only. When you look at how much some people are earning for far less socially useful roles…

I do wonder if office workers get technology payments... I think we both know the answer.

 

[muz379]

My username which is attributed to my staff number, the time and date I scanned the ticket and providing I’ve set up the device correctly the headcode of said service. This is all recorded by the device and can be seen and monitored by whoever has permission to view it such as my management or the revenue team.

A scanned ticket which is clipped records every single detail and train the passenger has taken, so it might say for a single A to B trip:

Entry barriers Station A 0753
Train 1K09 at 0834
Train 2J53 at 0953
Train 1F62 at 1054
Exit barriers Station B 1230

You can basically follow the passengers movements across the rail network, and know everything from which barriers they’ve used, which operator they’ve used, what trains they’ve used and how many times that individual ticket has been checked (if at all).
A ticket marked with either just the date or headcode (not both) doesn’t tell you when the train was taken, or the route taken, just that the ticket was used. Most tickets which are marked would not usually be marked further, particularly if the passenger has taken a longer journey as you wouldn’t be able to see the ticket information.

This is a good point about ticket scanning that is often missed and imo at the minute the full potential of the data being collected is yet to be used to its full potential by TOC's .

When a ticket was clipped , marked by pen or whatever else guards used to do that information was never collated by the company , and in my experience in years of travelling and then working in the indsutry it was never consistent between guards , some would just X the ticket , some would use proper Ziffa stamps , some would circle the date or write a date of their own on or any other combination .

Now as this poster has just explained not only is the ticket validation consistent , its also recorded on a company database which can be used by various different teams .

In this day and age data about customers is a particularly important and valuable commodity .

 

[fabs]

They have the best rdw agreement on the network

It certainly was and TPE asked ASLEF to sanction a one year extension. Which was not only turned down but ASLEF withdrew the running one a week early.

Now that agreement (which was frankly outstanding from a driver point of view) no longer exists. I imagine TPEs hands are tied and even if they wanted to, there’s no chance, in the current economic climate, the exchequer would sanction one that costs so much again.

ASLEF ripped the agreement up, not the TOC, who wished it to continue. We will never see such a generous one again. Welcome to life in the public sector, where every pound spent has to be justified. Just what bro Mick wanted though, wasn’t it?

Also I suppose it makes the conductors dispute regarding parity with driver RDW fairly moot now.

 

[dk1]

It certainly was and TPE asked ASLEF to sanction a one year extension. Which was not only turned down but ASLEF withdrew the running one a week early.

Now that agreement (which was frankly outstanding from a driver point of view) no longer exists. I imagine TPEs hands are tied and even if they wanted to, there’s no chance, in the current economic climate, the exchequer would sanction one that costs so much again.

ASLEF ripped the agreement up, not the TOC, who wished it to continue. We will never see such a generous one again. Welcome to life in the public sector, where every pound spent has to be justified. Just what bro Mick wanted though, wasn’t it?

Also I suppose it makes the conductors dispute regarding parity with driver RDW fairly moot now.

I have never understood this union desire for nationalisation which has seemed so prevalent for as long as I can remember. The memories I have as a BR employee where mainly of cutbacks, closures & poverty. Privatisation was a dream come true for us as drivers. Be careful what you wish for in life I say.

 

[43066]

I do wonder if office workers get technology payments... I think we both know the answer.

I don’t know. I can’t speak for *all* office workers, can you?! I rather think you’ve missed my point somewhat.

At different stages of my office career I had a car allowance, a year end bonus and a (shared) secretary to do my admin^. I wasn’t generally expected to work weekends or bank holidays. I wasn’t expected to get up at 0300 to get to work. On the other hand I was expected to do *a lot* of unpaid overtime. Comparing the jobs I did before to my operational railway role is apples and oranges really.

Different jobs have different Ts and Cs, and it’s ridiculous for people doing one type of job to throw stones at others doing a different job in a different industry due to perceived perks/advantages.

^I must really, really like trains to have given that up

Now that agreement (which was frankly outstanding from a driver point of view) no longer exists.

What was the agreement out of interest?

I have never understood this union desire for nationalisation which has seemed so prevalent for as long as I can remember. The memories I have as a BR employee where mainly of cutbacks, closures & poverty. Privatisation was a dream come true for us as drivers. Be careful what you wish for in life I say.

Completely agree. It’s ideological nonsense, ironically driven by people who are mostly too young to remember BR (I’m too young to remember it too, but know quite a few who aren’t, and they all share your view!).

 

[fabs]

I have never understood this union desire for nationalisation which has seemed so prevalent for as long as I can remember. The memories I have as a BR employee where mainly of cutbacks, closures & poverty. Privatisation was a dream come true for us as drivers. Be careful what you wish for in life I say.

Only benefit I can think of is that you can stop the job nationwide and use it as a industrial relation threat/crow bar.
Public sector is going to be torn to shreds to help cover the costs of the pandemic. We need to tread a fine line between ‘industry support’ and being fully nationalised.
Personally I think we are in trouble, a high percentage of passengers are saying in surveys they’ve no intention of coming back post pandemic; so very soon I think TOCs will be instructed to look at slimming down services.
We actually need our unions to represent their rank and file now more than ever instead of using their power to give the Tory’s a bloody nose, they’re capable of doing that to themselves.

 

[Efini92]

I have never understood this union desire for nationalisation which has seemed so prevalent for as long as I can remember. The memories I have as a BR employee where mainly of cutbacks, closures & poverty. Privatisation was a dream come true for us as drivers. Be careful what you wish for in life I say.

The only thing I can think is it makes them more powerful as a union.

It certainly was and TPE asked ASLEF to sanction a one year extension. Which was not only turned down but ASLEF withdrew the running one a week early.

Now that agreement (which was frankly outstanding from a driver point of view) no longer exists. I imagine TPEs hands are tied and even if they wanted to, there’s no chance, in the current economic climate, the exchequer would sanction one that costs so much again.

ASLEF ripped the agreement up, not the TOC, who wished it to continue. We will never see such a generous one again. Welcome to life in the public sector, where every pound spent has to be justified. Just what bro Mick wanted though, wasn’t it?

Also I suppose it makes the conductors dispute regarding parity with driver RDW fairly moot now.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it comes back again. TPE’s full time officer is a fantastic negotiator.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

Only benefit I can think of is that you can stop the job nationwide and use it as a industrial relation threat/crow bar.
Public sector is going to be torn to shreds to help cover the costs of the pandemic. We need to tread a fine line between ‘industry support’ and being fully nationalised.
Personally I think we are in trouble, a high percentage of passengers are saying in surveys they’ve no intention of coming back post pandemic; so very soon I think TOCs will be instructed to look at slimming down services.
We actually need our unions to represent their rank and file now more than ever instead of using their power to give the Tory’s a bloody nose, they’re capable of doing that to themselves.

I’m not convinced the commuters won’t return. You only have to look how busy the trains are at a weekend. Once the businesses say it’s time to come back, they will.

 

[fabs]

I wouldn’t be surprised if it comes back again. TPE’s full time officer is a fantastic negotiator

If by banging tables and attempting to intimidate.
And backing members who commit horrible safety violations, makes you a ‘fantastic negotiator’ then I guess you’re right.

 

[Efini92]

If by banging tables and attempting to intimidate.
And backing members who commit horrible safety violations, makes you a ‘fantastic negotiator’ then I guess you’re right.

No I’d say it’s more the T&C’s he’s gained for Northern and TPE’s RDW agreement.
As for the backing members, that is his job wether you agree with it or not.

 

[66787]

Also I suppose it makes the conductors dispute regarding parity with driver RDW fairly moot now.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

The RDW enhancements for conductors was not renewed as the company “couldn’t afford it”, whilst at the same time announcing £500m was to be paid to shareholders…

That approach will no longer hold water should the drivers’ agreement be renewed or indeed enhanced.

 

[LittleAH]

Quite the opposite, in fact.

The RDW enhancements for conductors was not renewed as the company “couldn’t afford it”, whilst at the same time announcing £500m was to be paid to shareholders…

That approach will no longer hold water should the drivers’ agreement be renewed or indeed enhanced.

You do realise that cuts have been demanded by the DfT. Pre-2020 arguments are effectively null and void.

 

[DorkingMain]

Why?? Spot check, guard hides in cab all trip, "Please explain", spot check, hiding again, disciplinary.
Isn't that effectively what drivers endure with checking the data recorders?
The big question is whether the union would accept it if done properly or escalate on principle?

Checking an entire long train is not a 5 minute task, especially when you're scanning e-tickets, assisting people etc.

To do a "spot check" you'd have to travel the entire journey on the train and not see the guard, realistically. And even then - people who like doing the minimum amount of work are masters of excuses for not doing it.

 

[Watershed]

The RDW enhancements for conductors was not renewed as the company “couldn’t afford it”, whilst at the same time announcing £500m was to be paid to shareholders…

You're conflating the parent group - which effectively paid shareholders out from the sale of its American division - and the TOC, which like all TOCs is micromanaged to such an extent that it might as well be a part of the DfT.

 

[class 9]

Quite the opposite, in fact.

The RDW enhancements for conductors was not renewed as the company “couldn’t afford it”, whilst at the same time announcing £500m was to be paid to shareholders…

That approach will no longer hold water should the drivers’ agreement be renewed or indeed enhanced.

How can £500m be payed to shareholders, when even before covid TPE was haemeraging money?

 

[O L Leigh]

How can £500m be payed to shareholders, when even before covid TPE was haemeraging money?

I would suspect that was First Group as a whole rather than TPE on it's own.

 

[Falcon1200]

I do wonder if office workers get technology payments... I think we both know the answer.

Not in my 38-year office-based railway career, no ! Despite having gone from Flexiprinters and NCR machines to INTIS (ticket-issuing systems) and then through handwritten, TOPS, POIS, Promise and Genius (fleet management systems), from handwritten to (various) computerised logs, and Frame, F2000 and FMS (fault management systems), plus multiple info-disseminating systems. As long as proper training is given and the required equipment provided, there should be no issue.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Before and after DfT took over the finances TPE are still over-reliant on rest day work, which is the reason there are cancellations.

 

[Moonshot]

How can £500m be payed to shareholders, when even before covid TPE was haemeraging money?

The industry wide rail pension scheme is actually one of the shareholders

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2021 ==

Before and after DfT took over the finances TPE are still over-reliant on rest day work, which is the reason there are cancellations.

Same with Northern. A good number of cancellations yesterday, though it didn't have much impact as it was quiet anyway

 

[Clarence Yard]

How can £500m be payed to shareholders, when even before covid TPE was haemeraging money?

Because when FG saw how TPE was going, it provided for present and future TPE losses in it’s accounts, effectively setting aside money to cover those losses. Something that other groups can be a bit slow at, if you look at Go-Ahead and their current woes.

The £500m is connected to the US sale and has nothing to do with UK TOCs, which are now ring fenced DfT financed entities, just managed by the private sector for a fee.

If I was a union negotiator, I would be renewing my existing agreements pronto and not letting them lapse because you could easily lose what you have got now. I certainly wouldn’t be pushing for anything extra, not in the mood the DfT is currently in.

 

[Meerkat]

It fairly often actually seems to be the case that losses result in pay freezes or job losses , staff have skin in the game in that respect . Dont see why its so unreasonable to expect productivity gains that are made through staff agreeing to work differently are also shared .

Pay freezes not cuts. Its pretty extraordinary that the rail unions want more whilst the system is hemorrhaging money and likely to do so for years

Plenty of jobs have a performance related pay incentive , we sunddenly saying that most senior managers are so lazy they need paying extra to motivate them to meet targets . Or are we accepting that bonus's for additional performance are widely accepted in the world of work ?

Where I have worked you had your job, and you had to go above expectation to get a bonus, not just do what you are expected to do. Management is a different game, as they can make a much bigger difference than your ordinary bod.

Not content with having lost the debunked argument that a few pence a ticket scan is making the industry so insustainably expensive you have now turned on another grade , nice .

Nice strawman. Look after the pennies....

 

[Fokx]

Pay freezes not cuts.

A pay freeze is a cut for the earner.

Employee costs don’t suddenly freeze when inflation rises. Utility bills, petrol, rent, mortgages, food, childcare etc are all increasing, take home pay diminishes.

 

[wobman]

A pay freeze is a cut for the earner.

Employee costs don’t suddenly freeze when inflation rises. Utility bills, petrol, rent, mortgages, food, childcare etc are all increasing, take home pay diminishes.

Very true

 

[muz379]

Pay freezes not cuts. Its pretty extraordinary that the rail unions want more whilst the system is hemorrhaging money and likely to do so for years

A job loss is also a pretty big pay cut .

Where I have worked you had your job, and you had to go above expectation to get a bonus, not just do what you are expected to do. Management is a different game, as they can make a much bigger difference than your ordinary bod.

Surely if you could always achieve whatever it was to get the bonus it was part of the job all along ...

 

[Meerkat]

A job loss is also a pretty big pay cut .

The railway is pretty protected from those (there is of course the argument that dropping wages for the same number of staff would be better all round.)

Surely if you could always achieve whatever it was to get the bonus it was part of the job all along ...

No. You have an average level of attainment you expect for the wages you are willing to pay. Otherwise you are in American territory of sacking the bottom 10% each year.
Generally what we got paid good bonuses for wouldn't/couldn't happen on the railway crew side - ability for fixing problems and running teams, working longer (ie instead of overtime), getting involved across teams (ie not starting a demarcation dispute!), introducing new processes (ie developing them, not just applying them).

 

[Starmill]

How can £500m be payed to shareholders, when even before covid TPE was haemeraging money?

It's important to note that because part of the business has been sold, First Group has actually shrunk. This is the quid pro quo for the £500 million. That's not actually earnings. Indeed, TPE's earnings have been dismal for years and now they're effectively irrelevant anyway, as others have already explained.

Running the TPE services will continue to make large losses next financial year, and is very very likely to for years after that. That's just the current commercial context.

 

[muz379]

No. You have an average level of attainment you expect for the wages you are willing to pay. Otherwise you are in American territory of sacking the bottom 10% each year.
Generally what we got paid good bonuses for wouldn't/couldn't happen on the railway crew side - ability for fixing problems and running teams, working longer (ie instead of overtime), getting involved across teams (ie not starting a demarcation dispute!), introducing new processes (ie developing them, not just applying them).

So let me get this right managers need an additional payment for fixing problems , not squabbling about whose job something is and developing processes so they work better . No wonder the railway is so unaffordable given senior managers expect money for doing things which sound very much like their job ...

I am of course jesting because I understand that little perks and financial inducement can always make folk have more of an interest in the job and ultimately care more about the products/services provided by whatever the company is . Shame that some posters get it when it happens for those at the top but not those at the bottom .

The railway is pretty protected from those (there is of course the argument that dropping wages for the same number of staff would be better all round.)

There is that argument , not a necessarilly easy one to win though given different unions organise different grades with different levels of effectiveness .