Transpennine Industrial Relations

[Starmill]

If that’s what is agreed between management & staff side then that is what has to happen. If you don’t have that in your work contract it is of no relevance here.

It is of course not what's been agreed when there's a dispute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

Perhaps one of the benefits of being in a unionised industry . The railway certainly isn't unique in that sense .

Isn't it? Are there any other publicly funded roles which are subject to that kind of remuneration?

 

[wobman]

If the rumours are to be believed, it's the DfT that are preventing TOCs from renewing RDW agreements, all to save money.

Won't the service cancellations cost the tocs more than they save and the lost revenue ?? It's a false economy

 

[LowLevel]

Perhaps one of the benefits of being in a unionised industry . The railway certainly isn't unique in that sense .

Oh indeed there's a lot of data to interrogate though . But all of this checking who is selling the most on particular routes or at particular times would only give average figures to compare everyone against . And as I question above is a sensible way to raise that average to provide an incentive ?

It's the policy of almost every union that some of any productivity savings a company can make should be passed on to staff . It's just in the rail industry density and engagement is higher than others . I'm not really sure why you think a few pennies for every ticket scan is making the industry so expensive though , I mean don't just take my word for it TOCs are reporting saving millions on fraudulent digital ticket refunds from increased levels of digital validation . They aren't passing these millions onto the staff scanning . In theory it should even be possible for guards and other staff digitally validating tickets to just quickly flag tickets being used incorrectly upto teams investigating fraud making their job even easier and increasing income .

I believe the payment at Northern is a trial until the end of this month.

The word on the street is that the DfT aren't happy with the results because it's basically a money pit.

If someone catches 4 trains with the same ticket and it's scanned each time, is that 4 payments? If it's a 2 or 3 way split ticket, does it become 8 or 12? If there's a crew change and it's scanned again, multiple payments for the same train?

TfW even held a competition for the guard with the most scans and it was fraudulently won by someone scanning a QR code on a poster thousands of times.

Habitual large scale refunders can now be hit via Subject Access Request for the personal details to the retailer and they can fish for grounds to prosecute them and really mess them up directly instead.

Forged tickets are comparatively unusual, I've found one this year.

If the unions play hard with this one the answer has already been published in an RSSB study some years ago when the scanners were being trialled - mount them to the train or stations instead, introduce mandatory compostage and penalty fares and it is another string gone from the bow of keeping the guard relevant.

I've become very disillusioned with the RMT over the last couple of years and their lack of vision and ability to place themselves in the headspace of their opponents worries me as a member dependent on them.

Losing a load of money to industrial action "because at least we fought them" doesn't help me pay my mortgage.

 

[Towers]

Surely the manager couldn't do it unless they were in disguise!
Though it would make it a pretty solid case - gets on and off your train, and sat on it for three hours and you didn't notice your own manager!

This is precisely what happens elsewhere; guards are subject to assessments both overt and covert!

 

[YorkshireBear]

If that’s what is agreed between management & staff side then that is what has to happen. If you don’t have that in your work contract it is of no relevance her

It is of course not what's been agreed when there's a dispute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==


Isn't it? Are there any other publicly funded roles which are subject to that kind of remuneration?

I work for NR so it's not like I'm in a different industry, and I'm also in a union.

 

[Starmill]

TfW even held a competition for the guard with the most scans and it was fraudulently won by someone scanning a QR code on a poster thousands of times.

I have to say that's genuinely astonishing if true. It is like another planet out there

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

If the unions play hard with this one the answer has already been published in an RSSB study some years ago when the scanners were being trialled - mount them to the train or stations instead, introduce mandatory compostage and penalty fares and it is another string gone from the bow of keeping the guard relevant.

Unfortunately, theticketkeeper have done a trial installation of station mounted scanners. It is something that many people will be very very unhappy with here if they try to amend the conditions to make it a requirement because of the number of splits in use now.

 

[43066]

TfW even held a competition for the guard with the most scans and it was fraudulently won by someone scanning a QR code on a poster thousands of times.

Presumably that person has been dismissed, then, and is potentially being prosecuted for fraud (assuming there was some kind of financial prize on offer)? If you know for a fact that’s true then fair enough, but I’d be very careful mentioning things like that if it’s just a messroom rumour.

Let’s face it several posters commenting on this thread would like nothing better than seeing you on the dole, along with the rest of your grade.

 

[skyhigh]

I believe the payment at Northern is a trial until the end of this month.

For what it's worth, it was a 2 year trial agreement so there's still another year to run.

 

[muz379]

I believe the payment at Northern is a trial until the end of this month.

The word on the street is that the DfT aren't happy with the results because it's basically a money pit.

If someone catches 4 trains with the same ticket and it's scanned each time, is that 4 payments? If it's a 2 or 3 way split ticket, does it become 8 or 12? If there's a crew change and it's scanned again, multiple payments for the same train?

TfW even held a competition for the guard with the most scans and it was fraudulently won by someone scanning a QR code on a poster thousands of times.

Habitual large scale refunders can now be hit via Subject Access Request for the personal details to the retailer and they can fish for grounds to prosecute them and really mess them up directly instead.

Forged tickets are comparatively unusual, I've found one this year.

If the unions play hard with this one the answer has already been published in an RSSB study some years ago when the scanners were being trialled - mount them to the train or stations instead, introduce mandatory compostage and penalty fares and it is another string gone from the bow of keeping the guard relevant.

I've become very disillusioned with the RMT over the last couple of years and their lack of vision and ability to place themselves in the headspace of their opponents worries me as a member dependent on them.

Losing a load of money to industrial action "because at least we fought them" doesn't help me pay my mortgage.

If that's the case then northern are one of the Tocs that has been briefing the press on how much digital fraud it's helped then prevent attributing it to millions . I wouldn't have said removing the incentive would he helpful to sustaining that . Then again if the dft are pulling the strings anything is possible.

At a guess the guards will get a payment regardless of other scans otherwise it wouldnt work as an incentive. That being said if in the scenario you are giving someone with a long distance through ticket is getting it scanned multiple times the ticket value is going to be higher making it more valuable for a potential refund .

Habitual refunders can be tracked in the way you suggest . But not people who don't regularly travel chancing their arm or even people who throw the odd refund request in . There's also not many ways without an on board presence of validating correct use of advance tickets and there can be huge financial benefits buying an advance for a less busy service.

Scanners on trains and stations would be an idea to do away with the ticket checking by the guard although the scanner can't sell a new ticket when one is invalid . I don't know where you work but I can think of some stations on the routes I sign where a scanner wouldn't last 5 minutes . I can also think of routes with numerous unstaffed stations where people would just walk past scanners as they do ticket machines .

Sad to hear this is your experience with the union . Obviously a lot of it boils down how your local reps are . Remember though you are the union as a member so if you know other members that feel like that maybe engage with reps and your branch to change what you feel is wrong.

Isn't it? Are there any other publicly funded roles which are subject to that kind of remuneration?

I know folk who work in the NHS who have in the past been given training bonuses for completing various different bits of training. Likewise with education .

 

[Meerkat]

It's the policy of almost every union that some of any productivity savings a company can make should be passed on to staff . It's just in the rail industry density and engagement is higher than others . I'm not really sure why you think a few pennies for every ticket scan is making the industry so expensive though , I mean don't just take my word for it TOCs are reporting saving millions on fraudulent digital ticket refunds from increased levels of digital validation . They aren't passing these millions onto the staff scanning

I don't see why the staff are due a share of a productivity gain that is from company investment, rather than the staff adding hours/skills. If it isn't much money why do the union want it?

Then again do we get extra pay everytime we sign a new route or piece of traction ?maybe that should be put on the agenda for future meetings

And lose pay when the job gets made simpler....

But look it's not a new concept that if you want the folk that work for you to be engaged and interested in your projects they need to be suitably motivated including in remuneration

You get paid to do the job including checking tickets, the motivation should be that if you dont do the job properly you get in trouble and eventually sacked.

 

[LowLevel]

If that's the case then northern are one of the Tocs that has been briefing the press on how much digital fraud it's helped then prevent attributing it to millions . I wouldn't have said removing the incentive would he helpful to sustaining that . Then again if the dft are pulling the strings anything is possible.

At a guess the guards will get a payment regardless of other scans otherwise it wouldnt work as an incentive. That being said if in the scenario you are giving someone with a long distance through ticket is getting it scanned multiple times the ticket value is going to be higher making it more valuable for a potential refund .

Habitual refunders can be tracked in the way you suggest . But not people who don't regularly travel chancing their arm or even people who throw the odd refund request in . There's also not many ways without an on board presence of validating correct use of advance tickets and there can be huge financial benefits buying an advance for a less busy service.

Scanners on trains and stations would be an idea to do away with the ticket checking by the guard although the scanner can't sell a new ticket when one is invalid . I don't know where you work but I can think of some stations on the routes I sign where a scanner wouldn't last 5 minutes . I can also think of routes with numerous unstaffed stations where people would just walk past scanners as they do ticket machines .

Sad to hear this is your experience with the union . Obviously a lot of it boils down how your local reps are . Remember though you are the union as a member so if you know other members that feel like that maybe engage with reps and your branch to change what you feel is wrong.

I know folk who work in the NHS who have in the past been given training bonuses for completing various different bits of training. Likewise with education .

My union reps at a company level are excellent, I will say. I've had very mixed experiences over the years with full time officers.

A lot of the pandemic posturing etc however, I don't agree with (I think generally we were treated very well in a busted industry), and some of the internal processes are extremely frustrating.

Ticket scanning in my opinion is probably a horse that has bolted (though I don't blame anyone for trying to get something out of it) and I absolutely see it as a reasonable part of the job of a revenue guard.

 

[66787]

As has already been pointed out - for clarity, can it just be repeated that the current disruption resulting in so many cancellations NOW is to do with Drivers and not TPE conductors.

Conductors have not even been balloted yet, and it might not even meet the new thresholds. Shall we cross that bridge when we come to it instead of the criticism now?

As food for thought though - if TPE didn’t think it was worth incentivising conductors to scan tickets - why on earth would they have put the 3p per scan in the last (rejected) productivity deal

 

[Meerkat]

As food for thought though - if TPE didn’t think it was worth incentivising conductors to scan tickets - why on earth would they have put the 3p per scan in the last (rejected) productivity deal

Because there was something else they wanted in return - presumably whatever got it rejected.
Is ticket checking in the job description/contract/whatever for this role?

 

[LowLevel]

Surely the manager couldn't do it unless they were in disguise!
Though it would make it a pretty solid case - gets on and off your train, and sat on it for three hours and you didn't notice your own manager!

Revenue duties taken as an isolated thing needs to be considered carefully.

If you start pursuing people specifically over revenue it can trigger perverse behaviours - inappropriate charging of new tickets and so on.

When I talk about a lazy guard, I am not referring specifically to people who maybe are not that fastidious about revenue duties.

What I am concerned about are those in the habit of never patrolling the train, failing to make any announcements, and basically never be seen. To be fair from a modern perspective you are probably best to take the position that something is wrong and work with them from there, which is appropriate management action, but if things don't change then it should certainly have the potential to become a disciplinary issue. Managers noting the issue but failing to do anything about it because it makes their life easier are also part of the problem.

It is an important customer facing role and in an era where we are fighting to make the argument regarding on board staff being important, people not doing their jobs - whether managers not addressing issues or staff not working - are issues.

 

[Fokx]

Because there was something else they wanted in return - presumably whatever got it rejected.
Is ticket checking in the job description/contract/whatever for this role?

Ticket checking yes.
Ticket scanning no.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ticket checking yes.
Ticket scanning no.

I'm sorry is there some attempt to genuinely suggest that scanning a ticket is not the same thing as checking it?

 

[185]

2p a scan is a financial no-brainer for any operator, given the extra cash it brings in at Northern Rail. Motivating staff to literally scan every last one not only brings in extra revenue well above and beyond the 2p outlay, I hear the shenanigans with dodgy etickets which have been altered has also mostly come to an abrupt end too.

 

[muz379]

You get paid to do the job including checking tickets, the motivation should be that if you dont do the job properly you get in trouble and eventually sacked.

Seen these sorts of attitudes in many industries it rarely if ever leads to motivated staff with an interest in the companies products/services or priorities.

Every guard could make a lacklustre attempt and scan a few tickets here and there and it'd be very hard to sack everyone . Or you could incentivise and the average raises which if anything makes it easier to spot those slacking majorly.

And lose pay when the job gets made simpler....

Sure , but I'd be willing to bet there's more examples of new routes and traction than occasional changes to revenue equipment . Arguably validating more tickets makes the job harder because checking more tickets makes it more likely you will be exposed to a belligerent passenger with an invalid ticket . But then again its just part of the job there's no benefit to the company in guards finding more invalid tickets is there then there's the selling tickets to smart cards which isn't as easy as just running a paper or card ticket off so all in all I'd actually say the slightly easier ticket checking is outweighed anyway .

I don't see why the staff are due a share of a productivity gain that is from company investment, rather than the staff adding hours/skills. If it isn't much money why do the union want it?

The company are saving out of it so have more to share with their staff , its union policy to make deals around productivity so of course the reps are going to recommend such to their members . I never said it wasn't much money , I was merely pointing out that even when payment for scanning is made the company are still sharing good news about the money it's saving them , clearly it's not crippling the industry like a few on here seem to envisage .

 

[Fokx]

I'm sorry is there some attempt to genuinely suggest that scanning a ticket is not the same thing as checking it?

It’s really not.

I can look at a ticket, read and accept it without scanning the ticket and move on. The passenger could attempt to refund it, re-use it in the case of returns or just discard it

If I scan the ticket, it’s clipped, it’s marked with my personal details, timestamp and headcode, it prevents the passenger from claiming a refund, reusing it, or claiming they were on a different service in the case of delay repay etc

It is a method of work that hasn’t been agreed to

 

[LowLevel]

It’s really not.

I can look at a ticket, read and accept it without scanning the ticket and move on. The passenger could attempt to refund it, re-use it in the case of returns or just discard it

If I scan the ticket, it’s clipped, it’s marked with my personal details, timestamp and headcode, it prevents the passenger from claiming a refund, reusing it, or claiming they were on a different service in the case of delay repay etc

It is a method of work that hasn’t been agreed to

Almost like you were using the fabled British Rail standard issue Zifa stamper gripping irons that are/were still standard issue on some TOCs

 

[CC 72100]

If I scan the ticket, it’s clipped, it’s marked with my personal details, timestamp and headcode, it prevents the passenger from claiming a refund, reusing it, or claiming they were on a different service in the case of delay repay etc

Genuine question (and this isn't meant to inflame) - what personal details are transmitted from yourself to the customer in this action?

Also what is the difference between that end result with it having been stamped by a Ziffa with the headcode entered onto it?

 

[Starmill]

It’s really not.

I can look at a ticket, read and accept it without scanning the ticket and move on. The passenger could attempt to refund it, re-use it in the case of returns or just discard it

If I scan the ticket, it’s clipped, it’s marked with my personal details, timestamp and headcode, it prevents the passenger from claiming a refund, reusing it, or claiming they were on a different service in the case of delay repay etc

So you're suggesting that tickets were never clipped or cancelled previously? They were only ever looked at and read?

 

[dk1]

I work for NR so it's not like I'm in a different industry, and I'm also in a union.

No I’m not saying you are but it is something unions agree with management for traincrew at various TOCs.

 

[Starmill]

No I’m not saying you are but it is something unions agree with management for traincrew at various TOCs.

Or rather it's something that management could agree to in the past. Good luck trying that on now.

 

[dk1]

Or rather it's something that management could agree to in the past. Good luck trying that on now.

I wouldn’t like to comment on that. Depends if it’s part of a work contract. As a driver we where paid to accept a tablet & have periodicals & rule book updates etc sent electronically a few years ago. Usual payments for footwear should you not choose to accept company supplied items still seem to be appearing as expenses as normal in our pay.

 

[Meerkat]

The company are saving out of it so have more to share with their staff

That's like the argument about sharing profits - it only seems to apply to profits and not losses.
I assume the principle of sharing gains with staff means that when costs go up due to better safety measures etc the staff will volunteer a pay cut?

Seen these sorts of attitudes in many industries it rarely if ever leads to motivated staff with an interest in the companies products/services or priorities.

Yeah, I've known staff like that too. Most understand that they are paid for a job and shouldnt need paying extra to make them do it. If the guards were upselling or pushing the trolley round too then that would be different.

As a driver we where paid to accept a tablet & have periodicals & rule book updates etc sent electronically a few years ago.

And people wonder why the railway costs so much!

 

[Efini92]

Wow that’s a good RDW payment for drivers

They have the best rdw agreement on the network.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2021 ==

And people wonder why the railway costs so much!

Paying for the upkeep of the infrastructure is where most of the money is spent.

 

[43066]

I wouldn’t like to comment on that. Depends if it’s part of a work contract. As a driver we where paid to accept a tablet & have periodicals & rule book updates etc sent electronically a few years ago. Usual payments for footwear should you not choose to accept company supplied items still seem to be appearing as expenses as normal in our pay.

And people wonder why the railway costs so much!

Meanwhile in some industries people get an annual bonus which can run to many thousands of pounds “just for doing their jobs”. In a previous non railway role I was paid approx. £4k car allowance annually just “because”, with no requirement to spend it on a car!

Train drivers (and other railway workers) generally do shift work and all that entails, without any additional payment for unsocial hours. Why is it difficult for people to accept that people doing different jobs, in different industries, get paid differently and have different Ts and Cs?

As usual on here people want to see everyone else pushed down to the lowest common denominator. It’s sad to see people (often those not on big incomes themselves) being triggered by tech payments to other modestly paid workers such as train crew, which are paid once and once only. When you look at how much some people are earning for far less socially useful roles…

 

[the sniper]

I wouldn’t like to comment on that. Depends if it’s part of a work contract. As a driver we where paid to accept a tablet & have periodicals & rule book updates etc sent electronically a few years ago. Usual payments for footwear should you not choose to accept company supplied items still seem to be appearing as expenses as normal in our pay.

Don't get them started on that again!

Should have had to pop down to Currys on your unpaid break to buy it yourself, like someone in a 'proper' job would...

 

[BHXDMT]

Why on earth should the staff get a slice of the pie for something due to company investment? Its this sort of madness that makes the railway so expensive and so inflexible.

Because with every invalid, fraudulent or refunded ticket Conductors are picking up, the TOCs are getting hundreds if not thousands of pounds of extra revenue. Especially if the person is reported and it goes to court. If they get commission for sales, then why not on this? On board sales are decreasing all the time because of etickets, TVMs and gatelines, so I highly doubt this would be much of an additional cost at all. The action of "clipping" the ticket marks it as used so it also reduces refund fraud which is costing the industry something rotten at the moment (and is why TOCs are teaming up with Trainline to identify repeat offenders).

PS hasn't this made the guard's job easier - they don't need to read the ticket and use their knowledge to decide whether its valid, the computer does it. The skill level is dropping, maybe for new entrants pay should be going down not up!

Not really. Still have to read the device to see if there's a railcard (and which one it is), or to see the reason it's been rejected. Still have to check the time restrictions for Off Peak tickets, etc. Also, if their ticket has been scanned at a gateline or by another Guard, it automatically rejects the ticket so you then have to read in detail to double check it is in fact valid.