Has Covid changed your political allegience?

[quantinghome]

If you think it will, then it it your duty to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Restrictions on peoples lives, in the form of NPI's of dubious credibility should be reserved for real and proven threats, not for vague concerns.

By the time you've got the data to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, it's too late. The decision whether or not to impose NPIs has to be taken based on imperfect and incomplete information.

 

[Yew]

You’ll be saying you believe wearing a mask is like trying to keep a fart in your trousers next.

I thought it was like weeing on someone else's legs?

Either way, saying that someone has a free choice when they are being discriminated against if they choose the 'wrong' option is clearly incorrect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

By the time you've got the data to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, it's too late. The decision whether or not to impose NPIs has to be taken based on imperfect and incomplete information.

I never said it had to be perfect, "beyond reasonable doubt" allows, for a reasonable level of doubt.

Quite simply, my life is not a plaything for a bunch of epidemiologists to experiment with non-pharmaceutical interventions that they never thought they would get the chance to play with.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Omicron variant could well change that, and the best way to return to normal is to get boosted and take limited measures to ensure the NHS doesn't fall over should the spike in infections turn into a spike of hospitalisations.

Ive heard all this “best way to return to normal is to have the vaccine/booster” all before and it’s a line that has zero truth to it.

The vaccine hasn’t returned us to normality at that’s a falsehood

 

[Purple Orange]

I thought it was like weeing on someone else's legs?

Either way, saying that someone has a free choice when they are being discriminated against if they choose the 'wrong' option is clearly incorrect.

Again, you’re not being discriminated against if you opt to not be vaccinated. You need to prove you’re not infected by taking a test, and then off you go to your concert.

If there was a new Tory leader (as that is an increasing possibility by the day), let’s say it is Priti Patel, who then wins the leadership and becomes PM based on removing Covid restrictions and overturning the vote yesterday, would you vote for the Tories with Patel as PM?

(That’s a general question to anyone on the forum).

 

[Yew]

Again, you’re not being discriminated against if you opt to not be vaccinated. You need to prove you’re not infected by taking a test, and then off you go to your concert.

Are vaccinated people supposed to take a test too? I'll save you from answering, they are not, there is an additional condition imposed on the vaccinated. Merriam Webster describes discrimination as:

treating a person or group differently from other people or groups of people

Which is clearly what is happening.

 

[DustyBin]

This is nonsense. So many inaccuracies. To focus one one, the vaccine is nothing like having a gun held to your head. Talk about hyperbole. You still have the choice and the risk of not getting vaccinated is yours to accept, if you want.

You’ll be saying you believe wearing a mask is like trying to keep a fart in your trousers next.

Thanks for the eloquent and well reasoned rebuttal of each of my points. By “so many inaccuracies” I presume what you really mean is you didn’t hear it from the BBC so it can’t be true?

 

[Purple Orange]

Thanks for the eloquent and well reasoned rebuttal of each of my points. By “so many inaccuracies” I presume what you really mean is you didn’t hear it from the BBC so it can’t be true?

No, it’s just so much nonsense to wade through. I can’t be affording my time to be overtaken by it all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

Are vaccinated people supposed to take a test too? I'll save you from answering, they are not, there is an additional condition imposed on the vaccinated. Merriam Webster describes discrimination as:



Which is clearly what is happening.

So would you vote for a Tory leader who would remove all the Covid restrictions?

 

[DustyBin]

No, it’s just so much nonsense to wade through. I can’t be affording my time to be overtaken by it all.

If it’s nonsense it should be easy to refute. I put it to you, respectfully of course, that you’re simply unable to accept facts contrary to your strongly held but wildly misinformed opinions.

 

[quantinghome]

If it’s nonsense it should be easy to refute. I put it to you, respectfully of course, that you’re simply unable to accept facts contrary to your strongly held but wildly misinformed opinions.

Nonsense is actually very time consuming to refute: Brandolini's law - Wikipedia

Anyone who's had experience arguing with flat earthers or climate change deniers or anti-vaxxers will attest to this.

I'm not suggesting you are in the same category btw.

 

[DustyBin]

Nonsense is actually very time consuming to refute: Brandolini's law - Wikipedia

Anyone who's had experience arguing with flat earthers or climate change deniers or anti-vaxxers will attest to this.

I'm not suggesting you are in the same category btw.

Pleased to hear it!

 

[kristiang85]

By the time you've got the data to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, it's too late. The decision whether or not to impose NPIs has to be taken based on imperfect and incomplete information.

Taking measures that will definitely severely harm many sectors of the economy and the health/wellbeing of a large proportion of the population should not be based on "imperfect and incomplete" information.

See the Iraq war decision which ultimately brought down the Blair government; many soldiers were sent to die (and many civilians with them) based on 'imperfect and incomplete' information. The long term effects of that killed many more people in Iraq and worldwide, then ISIS etc.

Although it is a completely different situation, the effects are going to be similar I feel: far from saving the NHS, in the long run these measures are going to break it, what with the patient backlog and staff departing, plus the weaker economy limiting incoming funding. Then instead of protecting the health of the population, many people denied routine care and diagnosis are going to die. Ultimately, the government will fall over the after effects of this.

 

[35B]

Are vaccinated people supposed to take a test too? I'll save you from answering, they are not, there is an additional condition imposed on the vaccinated. Merriam Webster describes discrimination as:



Which is clearly what is happening.

My copy of the Shorter OED has a number of meanings, where the Merriam-Webster definition fits only one of the 4. Of the other three, item 4 is quite relevant:

The faculty of discriminating; the ability to observe accurately and make fine distinctions; perceptiveness, acuity, good judgement or taste.

But even if we take your view of which definition applies, your argument presumes that this kind discrimination is inherently wrong, at all times and in all places. Governments discriminate in a number of ways, all the time. They do it through licensing requirements, or age limits, or otherwise determining that certain groups qualify or do not qualify for certain services. It also conflates the sort of discrimination based on a person's inherent properties (e.g. skin colour, disabilities) which the law rightly prohibits with decisions based around the choices individuals make. And, for all but a very small number in the UK, the decision about whether or not to be vaccinated is a choice.

Even where I disagree with them, I've time for arguments based on efficacy or practicality. Those that try to co-opt the arguments of discrimination to portray those who are affected by these measures as in some way put upon, however, I regard as beyond the pale. And, as we saw with many of those who voted "No" last night but supported government legislation that really is discriminatory, they frequently accompany deep hypocrisy.

 

[390136]

Hated the Tory's before the pandemic and now I will never vote them in my lifetime. Their sheer incompetency in November 2020 where they delayed a lockdown despite advice was the same time my Dad caught COVID-19 in hospital and passed away.

Green's used to be an interest to me but they're hypocrites (especially regarding HS2).

I'll continue to vote Labour, Starmer isn't the best but he's a damn shot better than anyone in the cabinet.

 

[Busaholic]

With a lead for Reform UK (at the time of posting), it points to how unrepresentative RailUK is of the wider electorate.

While that may well be true, I'd certainly add the rider that this sub-forum is almost certainly rarely, if ever, now visited by the majority of members, let alone those who regularly post, Some members have posted that they specifically wish to have no notifications from it, which is perhaps indicative. Quite why so many non-members of the forum are following these threads I find puzzling, but then I'm puzzled by so much that passes for rational behaviour these days in this country.

 

[Yew]

But even if we take your view of which definition applies, your argument presumes that this kind discrimination is inherently wrong, at all times and in all places. Governments discriminate in a number of ways, all the time. They do it through licensing requirements, or age limits, or otherwise determining that certain groups qualify or do not qualify for certain services. It also conflates the sort of discrimination based on a person's inherent properties (e.g. skin colour, disabilities) which the law rightly prohibits with decisions based around the choices individuals make. And, for all but a very small number in the UK, the decision about whether or not to be vaccinated is a choice.

Even where I disagree with them, I've time for arguments based on efficacy or practicality. Those that try to co-opt the arguments of discrimination to portray those who are affected by these measures as in some way put upon, however, I regard as beyond the pale. And, as we saw with many of those who voted "No" last night but supported government legislation that really is discriminatory, they frequently accompany deep hypocrisy.

@Purple Orange was suggesting that vaccinated people were not being discriminated against, I was merely disproving that.

 

[Purple Orange]

While that may well be true, I'd certainly add the rider that this sub-forum is almost certainly rarely, if ever, now visited by the majority of members, let alone those who regularly post, Some members have posted that they specifically wish to have no notifications from it, which is perhaps indicative. Quite why so many non-members of the forum are following these threads I find puzzling, but then I'm puzzled by so much that passes for rational behaviour these days in this country.

Quite. Perhaps people should treat this forum as a forum for discussing railways.

 

[Cowley]

I think we’re probably done with this thread now. It’s just turning into arguefest and hasn’t got much to do with the original subject anymore.
There’s plenty of threads on the various political parties in the general discussion area if people want to get involved in those.

Thank you.