Has Covid changed your political allegience?

[Purple Orange]

This analogy is wrong. You don't need a bank account to withdraw and (theoretically) earn money. The way vaccine passports will eventually be used is in a "papers please" society, which is not a society I want to live in.

If assisting in the rounding up of those the state deem to be undesirable allows us to function as a society, then this is what we should do.

Yes it is. If you're opposed to vaccine passports (why we even need them domestically, I will never know), it's a choice of go against your morals or have your freedoms severely restricted. The same would happen in a society with mandatory ID.

You don’t need a bank account to earn money, but you do need it to withdraw money from a bank. You also need it function fully in society. Without it you will struggle more so than not having a covid pass, so in that way it’s not the same. Not having a bank account is more restrictive, than not having a covid pass.

Finally this is not a vaccine passport, but a covid pass. There is a distinct difference. If you don’t want to be vaccinated, you take a test and if negative you can go to the gig (or wherever it is), otherwise stay away and isolate. A two tier society is not being created here. May I add that presenting a covid pass is nothing new.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==

Scary, how easily some wish to give away freedoms that were hard won by sacrifice and blood shed throughout many centuries, not to mention the contentedness displayed at the creation of a three-tier society (the 'do as we say not do'' group, the 'vaccinated' group, and the 'unvaccinated' group).
Critical thinking and analysis seems to be in seriously short supply in the Western world.

And back on topic: I don't believe any party would get my vote as I don't believe any party gives a stuff about the average employed worker, sadly.

What freedoms are being given away? Name them.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Finally this is not a vaccine passport, but a covid pass. There is a distinct difference. If you don’t want to be vaccinated, you take a test and if negative you can go to the gig (or wherever it is), otherwise stay away and isolate. A two tier society is not being created here. May I add that presenting a covid pass is nothing new.

Call it what you want, this is a massive over-reaction, Covid isn’t Ebola it’s a respiratory virus, never needed proof to show I’m immune from a flu or cold before, why start now? A Covid pass doesn’t stop the spread of Covid.

What freedoms are being given away? Name them

The freedom to enter a venue without proving a health status, which is a pretty big thing by the way and the first step to more authoritarianism

 

[Purple Orange]

Call it what you want, this is a massive over-reaction, Covid isn’t Ebola it’s a respiratory virus, never needed proof to show I’m immune from a flu or cold before, why start now? A Covid pass doesn’t stop the spread of Covid.




The freedom to enter a venue without proving a health status, which is a pretty big thing by the way and the first step to more authoritarianism

No.

 

[NorthKent1989]

No.

No what?

 

[MikeWM]

Finally this is not a vaccine passport, but a covid pass.

For now.

In any event, for some of us the issue is not coercion to be vaccinated (which studies show doesn't work - it makes 'refuseniks' like myself actually dig their heels in) - that's actually a separate, problematic issue. The real issue here is the rollout of a society where you have to get, and show, government approval to do things that previously could be done freely.

Today that approval is 'simply' based on a specific medical issue, and maybe you satisfy that criteria so you think it doesn't affect you (although a 'papers please' society affects *everyone*). Will that still be the case in 5 years time, or will it also involve, for example, how much carbon you're using? Or how much alcohol you're drinking? Or how much meat you're eating? Or whether you drive a car? Or how many flights you've taken this year? Or whether you've said something negative about the government on the internet?

What freedoms are being given away? Name them.

Tonight, as any other night in my 25-or-so years as an adult so far, I could go to a Premier League football game or a nightclub freely if I wanted to. From tomorrow I need government permission to do so. That is a *massive* reduction in my freedom.

 

[bramling]

For now.

In any event, for some of us the issue is not coercion to be vaccinated (which studies show doesn't work - it makes 'refuseniks' like myself actually dig their heels in) - that's actually a separate, problematic issue. The real issue here is the rollout of a society where you have to get, and show, government approval to do things that previously could be done freely.

Today that approval is 'simply' based on a specific medical issue, and maybe you satisfy that criteria so you think it doesn't affect you (although a 'papers please' society affects *everyone*). Will that still be the case in 5 years time, or will it also involve, for example, how much carbon you're using? Or how much alcohol you're drinking? Or how much meat you're eating? Or whether you drive a car? Or how many flights you've taken this year? Or whether you've said something negative about the government on the internet?



Tonight, as any other night in my 25-or-so years as an adult so far, I could go to a Premier League football game or a nightclub freely if I wanted to. From tomorrow I need government permission to do so. That is a *massive* reduction in my freedom.

Completely agree. The trend towards booking and heavily curated experiences at attractions over the last 18 years has been bad enough, bordering on oppressive in places.

I suppose we should be thankful the practice of shops having someone on the door seems to have largely slipped into history.

A pretty troubling aspect of all this is how readily there is a willing to bulldoze in pretty authoritarian measures, with little if any thought to how effective they actually are. One is right to be suspicious when the justification is so utterly weak.

 

[Purple Orange]

For now.

In any event, for some of us the issue is not coercion to be vaccinated (which studies show doesn't work - it makes 'refuseniks' like myself actually dig their heels in) - that's actually a separate, problematic issue. The real issue here is the rollout of a society where you have to get, and show, government approval to do things that previously could be done freely.

Today that approval is 'simply' based on a specific medical issue, and maybe you satisfy that criteria so you think it doesn't affect you (although a 'papers please' society affects *everyone*). Will that still be the case in 5 years time, or will it also involve, for example, how much carbon you're using? Or how much alcohol you're drinking? Or how much meat you're eating? Or whether you drive a car? Or how many flights you've taken this year? Or whether you've said something negative about the government on the internet?



Tonight, as any other night in my 25-or-so years as an adult so far, I could go to a Premier League football game or a nightclub freely if I wanted to. From tomorrow I need government permission to do so. That is a *massive* reduction in my freedom.

A load of BS. Your freedom to go to a match has not been curtailed. You can go if you have been vaccinated or have tested negative. If you test positive, you shouldn’t be going anyway.

Unless medically exempt, I will never understand why someone will refusal to get vaccinated.

 

[MikeWM]

Your freedom to go to a match has not been curtailed. You can go if you have been vaccinated or have tested negative.

Well, I've no idea how to respond to that, because it couldn't be more obvious to me that those two sentences directly contradict each other.

Unless medically exempt, I will never understand why someone will refusal to get vaccinated.

I don't understand many of the things people choose to do or not do, but I don't argue they should be less free as a result of my opinion.

 

[Bantamzen]

Finally this is not a vaccine passport, but a covid pass. There is a distinct difference. If you don’t want to be vaccinated, you take a test and if negative you can go to the gig (or wherever it is), otherwise stay away and isolate. A two tier society is not being created here. May I add that presenting a covid pass is nothing new.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==

You mentioned earlier that you need a bank account to function normally in society, so you therefore acknowledge that people unable to get accounts (and there are many) form a kind of 2nd tier in society. But you also think effectively mandating a vaccine by a passport that you need to display to access facets of life isn't creating a two tier society? Yeah right....

What freedoms are being given away? Name them.

The right to choose what goes into our bodies? Especially given that vaccines do not stop you getting infected nor stop you infecting people, and that passports are effective a stick to beat people into submission. Or in other words, they don't work!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Unless medically exempt, I will never understand why someone will refusal to get vaccinated.

Well let’s be honest, it was supposed to be two jabs to freedom and it’s now clear that was never the case, this will make the vax hesitant even more hesitant quite frankly and rightfully so.

A load of BS. Your freedom to go to a match has not been curtailed. You can go if you have been vaccinated or have tested negative. If you test positive, you shouldn’t be going anyway.

Really? Because up until 2019 I don’t recall anyone having to prove their vax or health status to enter a venue.

As for your final point, if you’ve been vaxxed why are you so worried about being next to someone unvaccinated? Your vaccine protects you from the 99% survival rate virus does it not

 

[Purple Orange]

You mentioned earlier that you need a bank account to function normally in society, so you therefore acknowledge that people unable to get accounts (and there are many) form a kind of 2nd tier in society. But you also think effectively mandating a vaccine by a passport that you need to display to access facets of life isn't creating a two tier society? Yeah right....


The right to choose what goes into our bodies? Especially given that vaccines do not stop you getting infected nor stop you infecting people, and that passports are effective a stick to beat people into submission. Or in other words, they don't work!

A) It’s not a vaccine passport. Get your facts right.
B) You can still get access to all these places, even if you are not vaccinated.
C) You still have the right to choose what goes in to your body.
D) Vaccines do work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

Well let’s be honest, it was supposed to be two jabs to freedom and it’s now clear that was never the case, this will make the vax hesitant even more hesitant quite frankly and rightfully so.




Really? Because up until 2019 I don’t recall anyone having to prove their vax or health status to enter a venue.

As for your final point, if you’ve been vaxxed why are you so worried about being next to someone unvaccinated? Your vaccine protects you from the 99% survival rate virus does it not

Clearly you have no idea at all.

1) You can still get infected if you are vaccinated, but the vaccine reduces the likelihood of being infected, serious illness, hospitalisation and spreading the risk. That is the point of being vaccinated.

2) The virus is mostly spread among the unvaccinated.

3) Up till 2019, we did not have a global pandemic to contend with.

4) This thread is a disgrace.

 

[seagull]

You absolutely cannot get access to certain places now if you are unvaccinated, that is a loss of freedom. And the disgrace, I am afraid, is thinking that is ok.

 

[Bantamzen]

A) It’s not a vaccine passport. Get your facts right.
B) You can still get access to all these places, even if you are not vaccinated.
C) You still have the right to choose what goes in to your body.
D) Vaccines do work.

A) It is in all but name.
B) Only by taking a test, and soon these will likely not be free, the government has hinted at this previously.
C) Not if you want to participate in activities that had no restrictions prior to the introduction of the passports.
D) I haven't said they don't, stop trying to deflect.

You absolutely cannot get access to certain places now if you are unvaccinated, that is a loss of freedom. And the disgrace, I am afraid, is thinking that is ok.

Absolutely.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Clearly you have no idea at all.

1) You can still get infected if you are vaccinated, but the vaccine reduces the likelihood of being infected, serious illness, hospitalisation and spreading the risk. That is the point of being vaccinated.

2) The virus is mostly spread among the unvaccinated.

3) Up till 2019, we did not have a global pandemic to contend with.

4) This thread is a disgrace.

I think it is you, not I that has no idea at all

1: That maybe, but the idea of the jabs was still woefully Miss sold

2: Really? Are you sure about that because cases in Wales & Scotland which had the passports were higher than that in England which had no vaccine passports and was basically at near normal levels of living, so if unjabbed people we’re not allowed into places in Wales and Scotland, who then was spreading the virus?

3: No true, until 2019 Covid was basically a bad flu.

4: I find your tolerance to such authoritarian measures a disgrace

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

You absolutely cannot get access to certain places now if you are unvaccinated, that is a loss of freedom. And the disgrace, I am afraid, is thinking that is ok.

Spot on.

 

[kristiang85]

2) The virus is mostly spread among the unvaccinated.

This is plain wrong.

 

[43066]

2) The virus is mostly spread among the unvaccinated.

Oh dear: you appear to misunderstand the purpose of vaccines. Let me guess, you also think unvaccinated are “bringing down the NHS”, and that masks are making a crucial difference to the course of the pandemic .

The unvaccinated are a little more likely to catch and pass the virus on, but given how high levels of vaccine coverage are (and have been for some months) the statement that “the virus spreads mostly amongst the unvaccinated” is clearly unsound. Vaccines are primarily intended (and very effective) to reduce the risk of hospitalisation or death amongst those who have them, they are not intended to prevent you catching or passing on the virus.

The majority of patients admitted to hospital with Covid are now vaccinated (and again have been for some months) because Covid is mostly a disease of the elderly and infirm who, even when vaccinated, carry a much higher risk of serious illness than young healthy unvaccinated people.

 

[LOL The Irony]

A load of BS. Your freedom to go to a match has not been curtailed. You can go if you have been vaccinated or have tested negative

These 2 sentences contradict each other.

 

[quantinghome]

I think that’s a little unfair. It’s perfectly possible to be skeptical of the EU and free movement without being in any way racist - indeed many people from first or second generation immigrant backgrounds feel this way too.

To Farage’s credit he wanted nothing further to do with the party and swiftly severed ties with it once it lurched further to the right.

It's certainly possible to be a non-racist EU and immigration skeptic, but Farage has form. Unlike the overtly racist far-right he's a canny operator knows exactly what he can get away with saying in public.

 

[Yew]

Isn't this exactly the sort of thing that 'living with Covid' entails, as the virus transitions from pandemic to being endemic?

Living with covid means going back to normal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

May I add that presenting a covid pass is nothing new.

Funny, In my 29 years I can't ever remember doing it...

 

[DustyBin]

A) It’s not a vaccine passport. Get your facts right.

I can call a horse a cow but it’s still a horse. It’s a vaccine passport in all but name.

B) You can still get access to all these places, even if you are not vaccinated.

The “loophole” was included to get it through parliament, or at least reduce the size of the Tory rebellion. It won’t last.

C) You still have the right to choose what goes in to your body.

If somebody pointed a gun at you and told you to hand over your money would you consider it a free choice?

D) Vaccines do work.

Who said they didn’t? They do what they were intended to do i.e. protect the recipient from serious illness or death. Particularly useful if you’re vulnerable.

Clearly you have no idea at all.

1) You can still get infected if you are vaccinated, but the vaccine reduces the likelihood of being infected, serious illness, hospitalisation and spreading the risk. That is the point of being vaccinated.

See above. Clearly their impact on infection and transmission isn’t all that great or we wouldn’t be in this situation.

2) The virus is mostly spread among the unvaccinated.

This is just plain wrong.

3) Up till 2019, we did not have a global pandemic to contend with.

And we no longer do. We have an endemic respiratory virus with a 99.9% survival rate, which joins various other similar viruses we accept, live alongside and frankly couldn’t care less about. The only difference at this point is the hysteria around Covid.

4) This thread is a disgrace.

Why? Because it’s full of people who can see through the BS we’re being fed? Because it’s full of people who care about what’s happening to our country? Because even where there’s disagreement there’s sensible debate? How dare us!

 

[quantinghome]

3: No true, until 2019 Covid was basically a bad flu.

Eh? Covid (i.e. the SARS‑CoV‑2 virus) was only identified in late 2019. It has caused 5,000,000 deaths worldwide (reported, actual figure almost certainly higher).

Saying 'Covid is a bad flu' is like saying 'Ebola is a bad nosebleed'.

Thankfully the vaccines have been very effective at mitigating the effects of the virus and have allowed us to return to a near-normal life since the Summer. The Omicron variant could well change that, and the best way to return to normal is to get boosted and take limited measures to ensure the NHS doesn't fall over should the spike in infections turn into a spike of hospitalisations.

 

[island]

That's your prerogative. But you are putting your eggs in one basket, over a single issue. Governments have to deal with multiple issues, and single issue parties dangerously simplify matters.

I agree in general, but on this specific issue, after 21 months I am so thoroughly sick of and disgusted with the ongoing reactions to COVID that I am prepared to make it a single issue.

If we were in an election campaign right now, any candidate I spoke to would be getting one simple question: "If elected, will you oppose all further impositions of mandatory masks or travel restrictions?" Any answer other than "yes" and the conversation is over.

 

[Yew]

Eh? Covid (i.e. the SARS‑CoV‑2 virus) was only identified in late 2019. It has caused 5,000,000 deaths worldwide (reported, actual figure almost certainly higher).

Saying 'Covid is a bad flu' is like saying 'Ebola is a bad nosebleed'.

Thankfully the vaccines have been very effective at mitigating the effects of the virus and have allowed us to return to a near-normal life since the Summer. The Omicron variant could well change that, and the best way to return to normal is to get boosted and take limited measures to ensure the NHS doesn't fall over should the spike in infections turn into a spike of hospitalisations.

In this post-vaccination world, estimates of the infection fatality ratio are comparable to that of influenza.

 

[DustyBin]

Eh? Covid (i.e. the SARS‑CoV‑2 virus) was only identified in late 2019. It has caused 5,000,000 deaths worldwide (reported, actual figure almost certainly higher).

Saying 'Covid is a bad flu' is like saying 'Ebola is a bad nosebleed'.

Thankfully the vaccines have been very effective at mitigating the effects of the virus and have allowed us to return to a near-normal life since the Summer. The Omicron variant could well change that, and the best way to return to normal is to get boosted and take limited measures to ensure the NHS doesn't fall over should the spike in infections turn into a spike of hospitalisations.

The flu analogy isn’t a great one as it’s a different virus altogether, but the IFR is comparable which I suspect is the point being made.

The “Ebola is a bad nose bleed” analogy is even worse, are you aware of the IFR of Ebola?!

Edit: @Yew beat me to it.

 

[quantinghome]

In this post-vaccination world, estimates of the infection fatality ratio are comparable to that of influenza.

That may well be true, but a spike in infections due to a significantly more infectious variant could still cause big problems. And of course we don't know what the infection fatality ratio for Omicron is yet.

I'd be more than happy for this to turn out to be a big fuss about nothing. But we don't know that yet. And it's foolish for anyone to suggest they do right now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

The “Ebola is a bad nose bleed” analogy is even worse, are you aware of the IFR of Ebola?!

Both are bad analogies. That was my point.

 

[Yew]

That may well be true, but a spike in infections due to a significantly more infectious variant could still cause big problems. And of course we don't know what the infection fatality ratio for Omicron is yet.

I'd be more than happy for this to turn out to be a big fuss about nothing. But we don't know that yet. And it's foolish for anyone to suggest they do right now.

If you think it will, then it it your duty to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Restrictions on peoples lives, in the form of NPI's of dubious credibility should be reserved for real and proven threats, not for vague concerns.

 

[Purple Orange]

You absolutely cannot get access to certain places now if you are unvaccinated, that is a loss of freedom. And the disgrace, I am afraid, is thinking that is ok.

Where can’t you get access? Name those places.

 

[DustyBin]

If you think it will, then it it your duty to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Restrictions on peoples lives, in the form of NPI's of dubious credibility should be reserved for real and proven threats, not for vague concerns.

You may recall that this was one of the concerns raised by a number of Tory back benchers after the first lockdown had ended. The bar for this kind of state interference into our everyday lives should be set incredibly high, whereas in fact it’s being steadily lowered, and at the same time the level of interference increased.

 

[kristiang85]

You may recall that this was one of the concerns raised by a number of Tory back benchers after the first lockdown had ended. The bar for this kind of state interference into our everyday lives should be set incredibly high, whereas in fact it’s being steadily lowered, and at the same time the level of interference increased.

This is the problem. People have been conditioned to not realise how extraordinary these measures should be.

Imagine if omicron was the first covid virus to break out. Ok we wouldn't have this obsessive testing nor the vaccines, so it wouldn't even be registered anyway, but even if we did, imagine the WFH mandate and vaccine passports "just in case" this cold turned out to be hyper deadly. There would be uproar.

 

[Purple Orange]

I can call a horse a cow but it’s still a horse. It’s a vaccine passport in all but name.



The “loophole” was included to get it through parliament, or at least reduce the size of the Tory rebellion. It won’t last.



If somebody pointed a gun at you and told you to hand over your money would you consider it a free choice?



Who said they didn’t? They do what they were intended to do i.e. protect the recipient from serious illness or death. Particularly useful if you’re vulnerable.



See above. Clearly their impact on infection and transmission isn’t all that great or we wouldn’t be in this situation.



This is just plain wrong.



And we no longer do. We have an endemic respiratory virus with a 99.9% survival rate, which joins various other similar viruses we accept, live alongside and frankly couldn’t care less about. The only difference at this point is the hysteria around Covid.



Why? Because it’s full of people who can see through the BS we’re being fed? Because it’s full of people who care about what’s happening to our country? Because even where there’s disagreement there’s sensible debate? How dare us!

This is nonsense. So many inaccuracies. To focus one one, the vaccine is nothing like having a gun held to your head. Talk about hyperbole. You still have the choice and the risk of not getting vaccinated is yours to accept, if you want.

You’ll be saying you believe wearing a mask is like trying to keep a fart in your trousers next.