Yellow Fronts Of Trains

[dickdarlington]

It's probably been done a death before, but I am baffled.

When the ICE came through the tunnel last month, it had to be dragged, and one of the reasons given was that it didn't have the yellow nose required to run on main lines in Britain.

What I am struggling to work out is if that is the case, and all trains using the NR lines have to have the yellow frontage, how do London underground trains get away with it? And what about steam trains which run specials?

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated as it's doing my head in not knowing.

 

[ess]

can't take too much trouble to paint a nose yellow for a special surely?

 

[ainsworth74]

As far as I'm aware there are few reasons. Firstly on the underground it is in its own little world and nothing to do with NR (or BR before it), so when the requirement for yellow fronts was introduced LU didn't follow suit. The reason for that being the fact that LU don't normally have anyone working track side when the trains are working so the enhanced visibility is not required.

As for steam specials I'm less certain but if I was to hazard a guess I would say that firstly they do have a red buffer beam (at least I think all the kettles do) which would aid visibility and secondly they are generally slower and a hell of a lot louder than most NR trains, meaning that anyone track side would be more aware of their approach than with modern trains.

Just a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head, not necessarily right of course

 

[AlexS]

Steam locos have derogations/grandfather rights that mean they do not require to have a yellow end

 

[trentside]

I seem to recall reading an article which stated that the Underground (where running over NR metals) had "grandfather rights" to operate it's trains without a yellow front. Until the 1980s, when graffiti became a real problem, the Underground had aspired to have a 100% unpainted fleet. They never achieved this. Red fronted trains arrived on the Underground with the 1973 tube stock on the Piccadilly Line and continued with all subsequent stock deliveries.

 

[jopsuk]

Saw a recent post on a blog that i've lost the link to- but it was a response to a FOI request to do with whether yellow is required for purely HS1 services. The response was interesting, as it said that if a class is fitted with the latest European standard lights (the ICE unit was not as it happens) then derogation from the yellow ends rule will be allowed on application- and that this wasn't confined to HS1.

So, two things:
A: Execeptions can be made- steam and LU are the two long standing exceptions
B: expect to see yellow ends dissappear in the not too distant future.

 

[tbtc]

As far as I'm aware there are few reasons. Firstly on the underground it is in its own little world and nothing to do with NR (or BR before it), so when the requirement for yellow fronts was introduced LU didn't follow suit. The reason for that being the fact that LU don't normally have anyone working track side when the trains are working so the enhanced visibility is not required

I guess the LU track being electrified would mean anyone standing on the rails has a good chance of being fried before they were hit by an Underground train

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

grandfather rights

How about Tornado?

 

[Oracle]

The question of the Underground front ends keeps coming up. It seems that the definitive answere is that they allowed to have red and also have high-powered headlamps. Of course Sarah Siddons has run on BR and was allowed a derogation.

 

[142094]

How about Tornado?

Didn't it have to have a special headlight fitted to get track access agreed?

 

[ainsworth74]

I guess the LU track being electrified would mean anyone standing on the rails has a good chance of being fried before they were hit by an Underground train

*facepalm* I really wasn't paying attention to what I was writing this morning, indeed working on the track whilst it's electrified could have some shocking consequences for those involved never mind dodging trains.

 

[142094]

I guess the LU track being electrified would mean anyone standing on the rails has a good chance of being fried before they were hit by an Underground train

On that programme on Sky 3 (The Tube I think it was called), they often showed people doing work even when the power was on. Can't remember the exact nature of it but one of them was testing the current with what looked to be something like a defibrilation unit.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

On that programme on Sky 3 (The Tube I think it was called), they often showed people doing work even when the power was on. Can't remember the exact nature of it but one of them was testing the current with what looked to be something like a defibrilation unit.

When I was a sustificate holding Engineering Supervisor the current was tested with what was known colloquially as an "egg box". Basically a box with half a dozen - or was it six? - bulbs connected to a conductor rail shaped clip at the base of the box and a length of cable with a running rail clip attached.
Clip the cable end clip to the running rail, apply the egg box to the conductor rail and it was instant result.

Yellow fronts? No-one else in Europe has them for safety purposes, why should we? In days of steam you saw the train because of the steam.

 

[class156]

As far as I'm aware there are few reasons. Firstly on the underground it is in its own little world and nothing to do with NR (or BR before it), so when the requirement for yellow fronts was introduced LU didn't follow suit. The reason for that being the fact that LU don't normally have anyone working track side when the trains are working so the enhanced visibility is not required.

As for steam specials I'm less certain but if I was to hazard a guess I would say that firstly they do have a red buffer beam (at least I think all the kettles do) which would aid visibility and secondly they are generally slower and a hell of a lot louder than most NR trains, meaning that anyone track side would be more aware of their approach than with modern trains.

Just a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head, not necessarily right of course

No doubt track workers would realise there was a steam railtour coming when they seen self minded enthusiasts walking on the track

 

[90019]

Yellow fronts? No-one else in Europe has them for safety purposes, why should we?

Why do newer NMBS trains have yellow fronts?
Older ones tend to have at least some yellow on them too.

I believe SBB have red fronts on most of their trains.

 

[GB]

Yellow fronts? No-one else in Europe has them for safety purposes, why should we? In days of steam you saw the train because of the steam.

With old stock that has poor head lights, the yellow is what you will see first far into the distance during day light hours.

There is less of a need (imo) for yellow fronts on stock that has european style lighting.

 

[Hydro]

When I was a sustificate holding Engineering Supervisor the current was tested with what was known colloquially as an "egg box". Basically a box with half a dozen - or was it six? - bulbs connected to a conductor rail shaped clip at the base of the box and a length of cable with a running rail clip attached.
Clip the cable end clip to the running rail, apply the egg box to the conductor rail and it was instant result.

Yellow fronts? No-one else in Europe has them for safety purposes, why should we? In days of steam you saw the train because of the steam.

Still use the box of eggs, much better then a live line tester. You can leave them on the juice and everyone can see it's live from the whole box lighting up, very handy for those nasty little floaters that could remain live whilst the main con rails were dead. A live line tester iirc only gives a small led indication of live or dead.

 

[starrymarkb]

Why do newer NMBS trains have yellow fronts?
Older ones tend to have at least some yellow on them too.

I believe SBB have red fronts on most of their trains.

And Ireland. Netherlands requires Yellow or White (though ignores Thalys), France requires stripy fronts (ignored by SNCF - rigorously enforced for open access!)

 

[The Decapod]

Steam locos have derogations/grandfather rights that mean they do not require to have a yellow end

Would this apply to the GWR diesel railcar too, I wonder?

Also, for most of the time a steam loco is accompanied by a cloud of steam and smoke, which is probably more visible than a yellow front.
Come to think of it, some heritage diesels are accompanied by clouds of smoke too !!!

 

[danfitz123]

I really dont get it! People who work on the railways have to have good eyesight. Wouldn't this mean they would see the train even if it didn't have a yellow front. Anyone with decent eyesight should be able to.

 

[142094]

I really dont get it! People who work on the railways have to have good eyesight. Wouldn't this mean they would see the train even if it didn't have a yellow front. Anyone with decent eyesight should be able to.

Not everyone who goes on the railway is a railway worker, or for that matter has fantastic eyesight - just think of railway foot crossings for example. Better to something that stands out against the normal green vegetation or whatever.

 

[GB]

I really dont get it! People who work on the railways have to have good eyesight. Wouldn't this mean they would see the train even if it didn't have a yellow front. Anyone with decent eyesight should be able to.

Depends what angles and distances your talking about.

 

[tbtc]

Face it; we're stuck with yellow fronts (regardless of how necessary they may be)

If we got rid of them it'd only take one accident (stupid teenager walks onto tracks, doesn't realise what's happening etc) for people to point the finger and say "this would never have happened if the train had hi-visible paint on it" (regardless of whether that'd have helped).

It's one of these "H&S" things nobody wants to get rid of

 

[jopsuk]

Found that FOI response.

 

[swt_passenger]

You've also probably confirmed that of the many reasons the DB unit was dragged. lack of yellow paint wasn't a major factor...

 

[starrymarkb]

You've also probably confirmed that of the many reasons the DB unit was dragged. lack of yellow paint wasn't a major factor...

Am I right in thinking that the ICE's for France don't have TVM, instead using ETCS on LGV Est. Certainly the set was dragged to Coquelles by a EuroCargoRail TRAXX.

 

[LE Greys]

Not everyone who goes on the railway is a railway worker, or for that matter has fantastic eyesight - just think of railway foot crossings for example. Better to something that stands out against the normal green vegetation or whatever.

Actually, that's a good point. Almost all diesel locos at the time were Brunswick green, so effectively camouflaged against vegetation. If we had had Dutch colours or Lion-style white, then we would probably never have seen warning panels at all.

 

[danfitz123]

Not everyone who goes on the railway is a railway worker, or for that matter has fantastic eyesight - just think of railway foot crossings for example. Better to something that stands out against the normal green vegetation or whatever.

Ahh yes, didn't think of that.

 

[yamhamdan]

on the underground though, if you are a worker you will only see the lights, as it is pitch black

 

[ralphchadkirk]

on the underground though, if you are a worker you will only see the lights, as it is pitch black

There wouldn't be workers in the tunnels if trains were running, so no problem there.