Burscough curves turned down

[507020]

The fact that the intermediate stations between Meols Cop and Burscough struggle to generate 5,000 passengers a year AMONGST themselves probably doesn't help the developments argument.

That’s only because of how small they are and not to say that any trains should actually have to stop at them, but it would be better for trains going to Ormskirk or Preston to serve them than anything going to Manchester. I was once on a service which stopped at them and the guard said that in all the years she’s been doing this job she’s never once seen anyone ever get on or off at either of them.

Offer us some further examples then.

If the main line became blocked unexpectedly due to trespassers, a failed unit, fallen tree, track/signalling fault, power supply issues or otherwise, as opposed to planned closures for engineering works.

Passengers may wish to enjoy a quieter more scenic route or simply travel to Ormskirk, Aughton, Maghull, Aintree or Walton without the extra hour added on by changing at Sandhills, or even because both routes provide a similar journey time to Liverpool it provides a simple increased frequency from Southport to Liverpool without sending any extra trains into Central.

 

[zwk500]

If the main line became blocked unexpectedly due to trespassers, a failed unit, fallen tree, track/signalling fault, power supply issues or otherwise, as opposed to planned closures for engineering works.

If any of these are regular enough to justify new infrastructure, presumably they would justify preventative works at the problem source first? From an economic point of view, diversionary capacity is a happy bonus, not a primary justification.
If you were to justify a new route for diverting trains, it would be to permit closure of the existing route because it's too expensive to keep open.

 

[urbophile]

There must be a market for passengers travelling from Ormskirk to Manchester. Maybe not enough to justify this project on its own, but it could be a factor. Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge and a simple change, as opposed to a longer and more complicated journey via Liverpool involving two changes and/or a significant walk.
Also, Burscough is a sizeable settlement which would benefit from a Merseyrail extension.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There must be a market for passengers travelling from Ormskirk to Manchester. Maybe not enough to justify this project on its own, but it could be a factor. Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge and a simple change, as opposed to a longer and more complicated journey via Liverpool involving two changes and/or a significant walk.

There is indeed. Most of it goes by car (as the journey is very close to all motorway so is very fast, about 45 minutes or so, for an average speed of not far off 60 mph). Some of it goes by car to Burscough Bridge - I've often called it "West Lancashire Parkway" as it very much fulfils that role. Much less will go via Liverpool or Preston, and almost none via Kirkby despite the map making it look good as it is so slow. I don't doubt a few, e.g. with bus passes, take the bus to Wigan then the train from there, and some probably drive to a Metrolink stop and park up.

Also, Burscough is a sizeable settlement which would benefit from a Merseyrail extension.

Certainly - the current homeowners would like it too as it would boost prices. Burscough, while nicer than Ormskirk with a nice rural villagey feel despite having decent facilities e.g. Tesco and Booths and some pubs as well as good schools, is maybe 10-20% or so cheaper than Ormskirk, and I don't doubt that that is in significant part because Ormskirk has Merseyrail and Burscough doesn't.

 

[6Gman]

If the main line became blocked unexpectedly due to trespassers, a failed unit, fallen tree, track/signalling fault, power supply issues or otherwise, as opposed to planned closures for engineering works.

If your 2tph Southport-Liverpool via Ormskirk is going to have the capacity to carry the passengers off the 4tph via Hall Road doesn't that suggest it's going to be pretty little used?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

Passengers may wish to enjoy a quieter more scenic route or simply travel to Ormskirk, Aughton, Maghull, Aintree or Walton without the extra hour added on by changing at Sandhills, or even because both routes provide a similar journey time to Liverpool it provides a simple increased frequency from Southport to Liverpool without sending any extra trains into Central.

Taking a longer route because it's more scenic is a pretty niche product.

Can't help feeling we are looking at penny numbers here.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Certainly - the current homeowners would like it too as it would boost prices. Burscough, while nicer than Ormskirk with a nice rural villagey feel despite having decent facilities e.g. Tesco and Booths and some pubs as well as good schools, is maybe 10-20% or so cheaper than Ormskirk, and I don't doubt that that is in significant part because Ormskirk has Merseyrail and Burscough doesn't.

Anywhere that has a Booths is usually a nice place.

 

[HSTEd]

I understand the argument for moving both stations to be adjacent to the crossing of the lines - even if it is a niche interchange.
For no other reason it makes the railway easier to use for everyone and does not actually impose any more long term operating costs - it is merely a capital cost solution.

I can also see the argument for an extension of Merseyrail to Burscough from Ormskirk.

Beyond that I don't see much point in doing anything else.

 

[Bald Rick]

For no other reason it makes the railway easier to use for everyone

Except it doesn’t, it would be further away from pretty much every property in Burscough, thereby making it more difficult to use.

 

[Starmill]

Anywhere that has a Booths is usually a nice place.

Except for Rotherham.

 

[Djgr]

There must be a market for passengers travelling from Ormskirk to Manchester. Maybe not enough to justify this project on its own, but it could be a factor. Merseyrail to Burscough Bridge and a simple change, as opposed to a longer and more complicated journey via Liverpool involving two changes and/or a significant walk.
Also, Burscough is a sizeable settlement which would benefit from a Merseyrail extension.

According to the 2011 census Burscough has a population of 9,182. You might call that sizeable. I prefer the word small.

 

[Brian1947]

According to the 2011 census Burscough has a population of 9,182. You might call that sizeable. I prefer the word small.

Wait for the 2021 census results!

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to the 2011 census Burscough has a population of 9,182. You might call that sizeable. I prefer the word small.

It has had substantial housebuilding since then, and if Merseyrail extended I reckon you would get a lot more, possibly even effectively joining up north Ormskirk with south Burscough around a new Mill Dam Lane station which has been proposed since the 70s. Indeed, the station could potentially be funded via planning gain.

 

[urbophile]

According to the 2011 census Burscough has a population of 9,182. You might call that sizeable. I prefer the word small.

Compared to the small villages which otherwise scatter the West Lancashire plain it is quite big. More of a town than a village in size if not character.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Compared to the small villages which otherwise scatter the West Lancashire plain it is quite big. More of a town than a village in size if not character.

Burscough Bridge is also a (fairly small scale) Parkway station for Manchester from much of West Lancs, so demand there is higher than you'd expect from a place of that size.

Because of the high level of facilities it indeed feels more like a very small town than a large village. It is a bit of a destination for the very rural areas around it. Not quite a market town, but not far off with recent retail/hospitality expansion. Also has a large and well-regarded secondary school which draws people in - drop the kids off then go shopping.

I think people often don't get just how interrelated parts of old Lancashire are - because of the layout of places, it's a very "messy web" shaped travel demand, not traditional radial. That's also true of Yorkshire, to be fair. Apart from the hilliness, the North West's travel patterns are quite similar to those of the Netherlands rather than those of the South East where it's all centred on London and a few other large towns. The shape of the railway network itself should give a clue.

 

[Djgr]

It has had substantial housebuilding since then, and if Merseyrail extended I reckon you would get a lot more, possibly even effectively joining up north Ormskirk with south Burscough around a new Mill Dam Lane station which has been proposed since the 70s. Indeed, the station could potentially be funded via planning gain.

Of course it is probably better to focus on the reuse of brownfield sites rather than exurb sprawl.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course it is probably better to focus on the reuse of brownfield sites rather than exurb sprawl.

I think it is probably overall best to concentrate on sites with good public transport (i.e. surrounding railway stations/lines where stations can be built) than being particular about what sort of site it is. It's only farmland, there's lots of it. The situation is quite similar in a way to the proposals for development around Kempston Hardwick, which is probably why it remains open being fairly pointless as it is.

 

[HSTEd]

I'd be interested to know if there is any modelling for an extension of Merseyrail to Burscough.

I assume most of the traffic from the new station would be cannibalised off of Ormskirk, but I have to imaging there would be some new traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be interested to know if there is any modelling for an extension of Merseyrail to Burscough.

I assume most of the traffic from the new station would be cannibalised off of Ormskirk, but I have to imaging there would be some new traffic.

In an immediate sense some of it would presently drive to Ormskirk and park there, yes. Longer term I think there would be considerable growth and housebuilding as it made Burscough much more desirable, and so there would be new traffic.

A simple extension (as opposed to the Curves) has been seriously mooted as a possibility using battery 777s.

 

[daodao]

It's only farmland, there's lots of it.

That is irresponsible and NOT "green". In general, the rich agricultural land of the West Lancashire plain is particularly valuable for horticulture and shouldn't be sacrificed for inappropriate house-building.

Extending the electric train service to Ormskirk further north is not warranted.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd be interested to know if there is any modelling for an extension of Merseyrail to Burscough.

I assume most of the traffic from the new station would be cannibalised off of Ormskirk, but I have to imaging there would be some new traffic.

Can I ask if this aspiration is based upon information from official sources that confirms the existence of such referred-to modelling.

 

[Djgr]

I think it is probably overall best to concentrate on sites with good public transport (i.e. surrounding railway stations/lines where stations can be built) than being particular about what sort of site it is. It's only farmland, there's lots of it. The situation is quite similar in a way to the proposals for development around Kempston Hardwick, which is probably why it remains open being fairly pointless as it is.

It is better to develop brownfield sites close to where people work (with existing public transport) and this essentially means city development rather than encouraging long distance commuting and the sacrifice of the greenbelt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is better to develop brownfield sites close to where people work (with existing public transport) and this essentially means city development rather than encouraging long distance commuting and the sacrifice of the greenbelt.

Burscough to Liverpool is hardly "long distance commuting" (it's about 12 miles), and in any case the world has changed and so has where people wish to live. Arable farmland is working land and doesn't specifically deserve protection; there is no shortage of it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Burscough to Liverpool is hardly "long distance commuting" (it's about 12 miles), and in any case the world has changed and so has where people wish to live. Arable farmland is working land and doesn't specifically deserve protection; there is no shortage of it.

What is the latest view of West Lancashire authority on the development of farmland for housing developments in their administered area? After all, it is their responsibility and not one for idle speculation on an internet forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the latest view of West Lancashire authority on the development of farmland for housing developments in their administered area? After all, it is their responsibility and not one for idle speculation on an internet forum.

As this is a speculative thread it is exactly the place for speculation.

I don't know, do you care to research the matter if you wish to counter the suggestions using it?

In any case WLDC may not be of much relevance for very long, as unitarisation of Lancashire is looking fairly likely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I made reference to the land development situation that so applies to the West Lancashire authority at this moment in time in response to your posting. I have two points to raise:-

1)...This thread concerns itself with speculation on rail routes, not arable farmland.

2)...You state that Burscough is about 12 miles from Liverpool, I make it nearer to 16 miles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I made reference to the land development situation that so applies to the West Lancashire authority at this moment in time in response to your posting. I have two points to raise:-

1)...This thread concerns itself with speculation on rail routes, not arable farmland.

It's related to the viability of the Curves and the alternative "cross" station proposal, as well as Merseyrail extension and Mill Dam Lane. All inter-related.

If you'd like to bring the views of the authority into the matter as well as what jurisdiction they actually have to refuse planning permission, perhaps you could state them?

2)...You state that Burscough is about 12 miles from Liverpool, I make it nearer to 16 miles.

Still not a long commute. More a fairly average one.

 

[urbophile]

Because of the high level of facilities it indeed feels more like a very small town than a large village. It is a bit of a destination for the very rural areas around it. Not quite a market town, but not far off with recent retail/hospitality expansion. Also has a large and well-regarded secondary school which draws people in - drop the kids off then go shopping.

Forgive me for prolonging the tangent but town v. village is indeed a matter of how it feels rather than statistics. There are small towns, eg in mid Wales, or the NW like Settle or Appleby, which are very much towns and not villages despite only having around 2k inhabitants; there are also large (ex)industrial or suburban villages which are the size of county towns or small cities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Forgive me for prolonging the tangent but town v. village is indeed a matter of how it feels rather than statistics. There are small towns, eg in mid Wales, or the NW like Settle or Appleby, which are very much towns and not villages despite only having around 2k inhabitants; there are also large (ex)industrial or suburban villages which are the size of county towns or small cities.

Burscough appears to have a population of about 10K which is quite considerably bigger than those two. The sort of comparison that originally sprung to mind was Northallerton, though that's a market town and about 1.5 times the size.

Aughton (basically the southern bit of Ormskirk) has nearly 9K but by contrast feels like a village - it doesn't have much in the way of shopping facilities nor a secondary school, for example. When I was a kid Burscough was more like that - just a short parade of shops and no supermarket - it has developed massively since then and is likely to do so further.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's related to the viability of the Curves and the alternative "cross" station proposal, as well as Merseyrail extension and Mill Dam Lane. All inter-related.

If you'd like to bring the views of the authority into the matter as well as what jurisdiction they actually have to refuse planning permission, perhaps you could state the

This is something that I will certainly do when the matter of what has again been rejected finally if ever receives approval to proceed and it will be then, and only then, that the matters that you make reference to actually will need to be addressed.

I now intend to remove myself from this thread of speculation.

 

[zwk500]

In the interests of cutting off the off-topic discussion and returning to rail related matters, given that new heavy rail curves are unlikely would the local travel patterns support keeping the Preston-Ormskirk line but slueing it other to allow a single-track extension of Merseyrail to share the trackbed and go round the curve to a new platform at Burscough Bridge? This would require some juggling of Ormskirk station, a new platform at Burscough Junction and probably taking out the Bowling club for a new Merseyrail platform east of the A59 road bridge but would at least avoid issues of resignalling, service patterns and such like. It might need another Merseyrail unit and crew, but the national rail side stays entirely as is.
It's probably been discussed somewhere in the past 5 pages, apologies if so.