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Burscough curves turned down

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mrd269697

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Likely most cost effective solution is (without electrification, redoubling, frequency increase, reinstating curves ect)

Create an interchange station where the two lines bisect - call it West Lancs Parkway or something along those lines. Doesn’t have to be staffed, decent size car park and perhaps allow some housing development near the site.

Reduce Bridge and Junction to skeleton service (to avoid the legal mumbo jumbo of closing them)

Boom. Problem solved
 
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daodao

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Likely most cost effective solution is (without electrification, redoubling, frequency increase, reinstating curves ect)

Create an interchange station where the two lines bisect - call it West Lancs Parkway or something along those lines. Doesn’t have to be staffed, decent size car park and perhaps allow some housing development near the site.

Reduce Bridge and Junction to skeleton service (to avoid the legal mumbo jumbo of closing them)

Boom. Problem solved
The point where the lines cross is not easily accessible, Is the proposal not a solution in search of a problem? Unless a survey shows that a significant number of people would actually change trains if an Burscough interchange was built, there is no point in pursuing such a proposal. Passengers wishing to travel from Southport to Preston by public transport can catch direct bus X2.
 

Pinza-C55

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I had a look on Google Earth and I am damned if I see why it needs a feasibilty study or why it should take 2 years, It's a couple of hundred yards of plain track just needing vegetation removed.
 

The Planner

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I had a look on Google Earth and I am damned if I see why it needs a feasibilty study or why it should take 2 years, It's a couple of hundred yards of plain track just needing vegetation removed.
So it doesnt need a signalling or track and S&C design or a myriad of other things?
 

Bald Rick

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I had a look on Google Earth and I am damned if I see why it needs a feasibilty study or why it should take 2 years, It's a couple of hundred yards of plain track just needing vegetation removed.

Which is precisely why it hasn’t happened. Many people think it is easy. It isn’t.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I would be surprised if car ownership in those parts was far below 100% (one vehicle per household at any rate). I would be equally surprised if north Sefton (Crosby to Southport) was much less. But in the latter case people have access to a frequent and generally efficient rail service, which is well used. The cars might be sitting in garages and on driveways but if people have a choice of good alternatives they will use their cars less. Hence a bigger contribution towards saving the planet. In the West Lancs semi-rural, semi-suburban plain, there is little real alternative at present. For the sake of comparative coppers a lot could be done.
You place far too much belief in the goodness of human nature.
 

507020

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The point where the lines cross is not easily accessible, Is the proposal not a solution in search of a problem? Unless a survey shows that a significant number of people would actually change trains if an Burscough interchange was built, there is no point in pursuing such a proposal. Passengers wishing to travel from Southport to Preston by public transport can catch direct bus X2.
In the event of a ridiculous Burscough & West Lancs Parkway Interchange being built at great expense in the middle of a field that’s not within walking distance of anything and has no road access, any journey time advantage that would be gained with the Burscough Curves would be lost changing trains and you would still only be changing from the same unreliable 769s to the same unreliable Ormskirk - Preston DMU shuttle, so that’s the whole budget spent for none of the improvements, as well as the loss of green space and 2 historic stations. Despite my support for the Burscough Curves I would oppose such a colossal waste of a scheme in favour any other with at least some benefit for residents.
I had a look on Google Earth and I am damned if I see why it needs a feasibilty study or why it should take 2 years, It's a couple of hundred yards of plain track just needing vegetation removed.
What Google Earth doesn’t show you is the ownership boundaries and of course the trackbed is still wholly owned by Network Rail!
So it doesnt need a signalling or track and S&C design or a myriad of other things?
I wouldn’t say a myriad of other things. Signalling definitely but there is a box located at Burscough Bridge that could easily handle that. The number of other things is minimal.
True. I think I first read about this about 40 years ago.
40 years ago people knew as well as now there was no case to close them, or the direct line via Crossens, in the first place.
You place far too much belief in the goodness of human nature.
As do I clearly.
 

zwk500

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I wouldn’t say a myriad of other things. Signalling definitely but there is a box located at Burscough Bridge that could easily handle that. The number of other things is minimal.
Ah yes, because the only thing that signalling needs is for a 'box to exist. There's absolutely nothing else to Signalling design at all, whatsoever.
 

507020

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Ah yes, because the only thing that signalling needs is for a 'box to exist. There's absolutely nothing else to Signalling design at all, whatsoever.
That might be the case on a model railway, but there are absolutely no grounds for any box to exist if there is no other signalling design in place at all whatsoever, because in that instance what exactly would be controlled from the box? Would the signalman just sit in it all day doing nothing?

I was simply stating that there is a conveniently located signal box at the centre of the project site which new the signalling installation could be designed around and then controlled from. Some of the design is blatantly obvious, platform end signals at Meols Cop, Bescar Lane and New Lane. Ultimately line capacity needs to be for a minimum of about 8tph, with 6tph running in service and spare paths half hourly. We saw tonight how a service train was cancelled due to the lack of a spare path for an ECS movement, despite the fact that both could have proceeded safely if it wasn’t for the unsuitable signalling arrangement at present.
 

daodao

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Ultimately line capacity needs to be for a minimum of about 8tph, with 6tph running in service and spare paths half hourly.
:lol: Where are all these passengers going to come from? IMO, the current weekday Southport-Wigan frequency is overkill at 2tph, other than at peak periods. The service on that line needs to be rationalised and reduced west of Wigan, with all services from Southport banished from the Castlefield route. I am very disappointed that the Manchester Recovery plan option B was tweaked to permit such unnecessary services. Hopefully it can be removed once it has been shown in real life that such a service impairs recovery of Castlefield line reliability.
 
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zwk500

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That might be the case on a model railway, but there are absolutely no grounds for any box to exist if there is no other signalling design in place at all whatsoever, because in that instance what exactly would be controlled from the box? Would the signalman just sit in it all day doing nothing?

I was simply stating that there is a conveniently located signal box at the centre of the project site which new the signalling installation could be designed around and then controlled from. Some of the design is blatantly obvious, platform end signals at Meols Cop, Bescar Lane and New Lane. Ultimately line capacity needs to be for a minimum of about 8tph, with 6tph running in service and spare paths half hourly. We saw tonight how a service train was cancelled due to the lack of a spare path for an ECS movement, despite the fact that both could have proceeded safely if it wasn’t for the unsuitable signalling arrangement at present.
The presence of a signal box may well mean absolutely nothing. The signaller located there will already be occupied, and he or she may be already occupied to a level unsuitable to accept the additional control area.
Aside from physical aspects of signalling design such as train protection, train detection, signal sighting, braking distances, overlaps and flank protection, there is also the interlocking capacity and signaller workload to consider.
If the existing area is an older system for which parts are no longer readily available or it doesn't meet standards, will you need a bespoke solution or can you just install a new design alongside?
You don't design signalling around an existing box, that would be ludicrously restrictive. You design signalling around the operational requirements *over the life of the installation* and then work out where it can be controlled from. The you solve any problems with the control location.
 

The Planner

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I wouldn’t say a myriad of other things. Signalling definitely but there is a box located at Burscough Bridge that could easily handle that. The number of other things is minimal.
How do you know it can handle it? What about Rufford? Does it trigger a re-signalling into Preston along with Midge Hall? Does it trigger a requirement to sort the level crossing?
 

WAO

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Likely most cost effective solution is (without electrification, redoubling, frequency increase, reinstating curves ect)

Create an interchange station where the two lines bisect - call it West Lancs Parkway or something along those lines. Doesn’t have to be staffed, decent size car park and perhaps allow some housing development near the site.

Reduce Bridge and Junction to skeleton service (to avoid the legal mumbo jumbo of closing them)

Boom. Problem solved
A big LIKE!
The only practical affordable approach.
Passengers change trains on LUL, why not in Lancs?
Keep it all quite compact and cheap - the landowner is a nice guy!
WAO
 

507020

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:lol: Where are all these passengers going to come from? IMO, the current weekday Southport-Wigan frequency is overkill at 2tph, other than at peak periods. The service on that line needs to be rationalised and reduced west of Wigan, with all services from Southport banished from the Castlefield route. I am very disappointed that the Manchester Recovery plan option B was tweaked to permit such unnecessary services. Hopefully it can be removed once it has been shown in real life that such a service impairs recovery of Castlefield line reliability.
The passengers are going to come from Southport, Ormskirk and Preston. There will continue to be 2tph to Wigan with 1 running onto Castlefield, so no change there. How do you even rationalise a simple half hourly service? Southport can not be blamed for causing the issues with Castlefield and I fail to see how it is entirely Southport’s fault as everyone says it is. Option B was tweaked to permit most of the connectivity that is used by passengers in the real world not to be lost.
The presence of a signal box may well mean absolutely nothing. The signaller located there will already be occupied, and he or she may be already occupied to a level unsuitable to accept the additional control area.
Aside from physical aspects of signalling design such as train protection, train detection, signal sighting, braking distances, overlaps and flank protection, there is also the interlocking capacity and signaller workload to consider.
If the existing area is an older system for which parts are no longer readily available or it doesn't meet standards, will you need a bespoke solution or can you just install a new design alongside?
You don't design signalling around an existing box, that would be ludicrously restrictive. You design signalling around the operational requirements *over the life of the installation* and then work out where it can be controlled from. The you solve any problems with the control location.
Now this is a very detailed explanation. Signaller workload is something I had forgotten about and does restrict the control area. As far as control locations go, the choices I think are Sandhills, Burscough Bridge, Rufford, Midge Hall, Preston, some combination of all of them or somewhere new.
How do you know it can handle it? What about Rufford? Does it trigger a re-signalling into Preston along with Midge Hall? Does it trigger a requirement to sort the level crossing?
It will only require changes at Preston if it Burscough Bridge, Rufford and Midge Hall can’t handle the size of the control area between them.
 

The Planner

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The passengers are going to come from Southport, Ormskirk and Preston. There will continue to be 2tph to Wigan with 1 running onto Castlefield, so no change there. How do you even rationalise a simple half hourly service? Southport can not be blamed for causing the issues with Castlefield and I fail to see how it is entirely Southport’s fault as everyone says it is. Option B was tweaked to permit most of the connectivity that is used by passengers in the real world not to be lost.

Now this is a very detailed explanation. Signaller workload is something I had forgotten about and does restrict the control area. As far as control locations go, the choices I think are Sandhills, Burscough Bridge, Rufford, Midge Hall, Preston, some combination of all of them or somewhere new.

It will only require changes at Preston if it Burscough Bridge, Rufford and Midge Hall can’t handle the size of the control area between them.
Which doesn't make it simple then, Burscough bridge is just a small panel as is Rufford. Either would need a complete renewal which could likely trigger a re-signaling of the line and likely control into Manchester.
 

urbophile

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You place far too much belief in the goodness of human nature.
No: just common sense. If the trains between A & B are well used, in an area with high car ownership, it implies that without that train service the roads would be even more crowded, pollution would be increased, and the environment would suffer more, than in the area between C & D with a poor train service and similar rate of ownership. Providing the trains won't tempt all the petrol-heads off the roads, but it must have a contribution to make.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Passengers change trains on LUL, why not in Lancs?
Apples and oranges. On LU you walk (admittedly sometimes for what seems miles) between platforms in a dry and usually warm environment, with no need to consult a timetable because the train you want will be along in a couple of minutes. That's all the difference in the world from alighting at one windswept platform in the middle of nowhere, probably in the rain since it's Lancashire, finding your way down steps or ramps or trusting in an unreliable lift, to find your connecting train is delayed by 20 minutes.
 
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Bletchleyite

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FWIW it certainly was the case in the 90s that the quickest way from Ormskirk to Manchester was via the Burscoughs even with the mile's walk. That probably says a lot about how slow the Liverpool and Preston to Manchester services are/were, though.
 

Glenn1969

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So do you mean to say that any reopening imaginable will be integrated into the government’s single Restoring Your Railway scheme to be progressed (or not)? I think the difference with the Project SPEED approach is that they actually gave funding to Okehampton instead of leaving it indefinitely on hold like most of the others. Due to the scale of the Burscough Curves compared even to Okehampton - Crediton, they wouldn’t require much funding at all and the track work could be completed within weeks if started. The signalling might take a bit longer, but this is why I find it so unacceptable for them to remain closed. If only a third of the billed schemes stand a chance of even being considered for being built, then why did they need 3 rounds? Have you got any idea which ones are likely to be built and which aren’t, other than the Burscough Curves?

Merseyrail is effectively the default to travel between any random pair of stations along any one of its lines largely because it is likely to be the fastest way to get between the given points. Even if it isn’t, it is reliable and convenient enough for the few minutes difference it will make to be worth it, especially when most passengers are likely to travel from the same origin to several possible destinations on different occasions.

Any rail service from Southport to Ormskirk via Burscough whether it is a 777 or a 2 car 150 will have an undisputed time advantage over any road vehicle, but a through service to Liverpool as well as reducing the number of units opens up the whole length of the Ormskirk line to passengers from Southport, allowing journeys to Maghull and Aintree along the corridor of the 300 bus to be made by Merseyrail by default as well as Ormskirk itself. I can’t see any reason not to do this immediately.

At present there is more reason to use Merseyrail via Sandhills at some times of day than others because the bus can beat it if and only if the roads are completely empty, but because the train to Ormskirk can’t leave Sandhills until the train from Southport has arrived because of the conflicting movement, it is a reliable connection for a journey about 1 hour 10 minutes, which I find faster than a typical bus journey, but in the other direction the connection is only possible if the train to Southport is slightly late from Hunts Cross either at peak times or due to low rail adhesion.

I don’t know how Southport and Ormskirk are in a situation where a minimum of 1 hour 10 minutes has to be allowed for a reliable journey to a place 9 miles away which would take only 20 minutes if a less than half a mile single track curve was rebuilt on land wholly owned by Network Rail, but if this curve was open and a service ran on it, I make it that most of the time, to get from Southport Hospital to Ormskirk Hospital, it would be about half an hour faster to get a bus to the town centre at both ends to connect with this train service taking only 20 minutes than to get a direct bus between them. There are a lot of people who only travel between Southport and Ormskirk who are forced to because of hospital appointments.

Merseyrail have already returned to the 15 minute service on the Chester line however and this is with Ellesmere Port services still running.
I don't think any of the RYR schemes will get built unfortunately. The studies will all say there is no business case. Although I hope I'm wrong
 

HSTEd

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Which doesn't make it simple then, Burscough bridge is just a small panel as is Rufford. Either would need a complete renewal which could likely trigger a re-signaling of the line and likely control into Manchester.
Which is arguably what should happen anyway.

Although in future aren't we supposed to get software defined panels that would make small modifications simpler, to a degree?
 

The Planner

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Which is arguably what should happen anyway.

Although in future aren't we supposed to get software defined panels that would make small modifications simpler, to a degree?
And at some point it will, but at the moment it is waaaaaaaaaay down the list.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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No: just common sense. If the trains between A & B are well used, in an area with high car ownership, it implies that without that train service the roads would be even more crowded, pollution would be increased, and the environment would suffer more, than in the area between C & D with a poor train service and similar rate of ownership. Providing the trains won't tempt all the petrol-heads off the roads, but it must have a contribution to make.
The area between Ormskirk and Preston has much in the way of rurality with small populated villages and hamlets. The car ownership levels in areas such as these is always bound to be high as the house prices reflect the fact that sought-after properties command premium prices. The salary levels of many residents in those areas give the truth to the Liverpool Victoria multi-car policies that are media advertised. If you have two/three/four cars, you are not likely to even think of local train services. Because there is low population, there is less chance of any local road traffic having crowding as you state. With regards to "petrol-heads", the current move forward away from petrol/ diesel to electric vehicles will see them as a breed fast approaching extinction.
 

Bletchleyite

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If you have two/three/four cars, you are not likely to even think of local train services.

200K passengers a year (ignoring 2020-2021 which was just 30,000, demonstrating that cars are available to basically all users) at Aughton Park says otherwise. The station has no car park, only 4 cycle spaces (never used) so this is from a catchment arriving near entirely on foot from about a 500 metre radius given how close Town Green is(though a very small number of people drive there and park on the road), and one of the poshest areas in the North West outside of Cheshire or parts of south Manchester. (Traditional posh, with lots of large detached homes, not trendy posh like e.g. Didsbury - so much more likely to own and use multiple cars).

The Merseyrail service concept is compelling. It demonstrates the type of service you need to get people to leave the Jag and the Rangie at home, despite the fact that driving into Liverpool and Preston really isn't that bad.

So if you can take that service concept out further...
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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200K passengers a year (ignoring 2020-2021 which was just 30,000, demonstrating that cars are available to basically all users) at Aughton Park says otherwise. The station has no car park, only 4 cycle spaces (never used) so this is from a catchment arriving near entirely on foot from about a 500 metre radius given how close Town Green is(though a very small number of people drive there and park on the road), and one of the poshest areas in the North West outside of Cheshire or parts of south Manchester. (Traditional posh, with lots of large detached homes, not trendy posh like e.g. Didsbury - so much more likely to own and use multiple cars).
My immediate response to that is geographically speaking, both Aughton Park and Town Green are exterior to the land area between Ormskirk and Preston, so would not enter into the point made in my posting.
 

Bletchleyite

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My immediate response to that is geographically speaking, both Aughton Park and Town Green are exterior to the land area between Ormskirk and Preston, so would not enter into the point made in my posting.

While those two stations are in a more built up area, they are equally (if not more) posh.

Burscough Jn station in 2019-20 had 50K journeys. I don't doubt that if Merseyrail was extended to it it would beat Aughton Park by a considerable margin.

Rufford is in the middle of a field (every line has its Cheddington) but Croston is by a reasonably sized though not big settlement which is not actually as posh as the area around Aughton Park, with many smaller terraced houses and is not that expensive.

If it was reopened with a car park, I reckon Midge Hall would be the busiest station on the line. Flabbergasting that it was closed.
 
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