Ticket machines selling GroupSave tickets for journeys where the operator doesn't accept GroupSave

[RPI]

Small Group Day is a specific ticket type, whereas GroupSave isn't, it's a discount similar to Railcards.

brfares.com certainly allows it to be applied, so I guess there's nothing in the data preventing it: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BHM&dest=MCN&rlc=GS3

I wonder why its not shown in our machine then?

 

[Haywain]

brfares.com certainly allows it to be applied, so I guess there's nothing in the data preventing it: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BHM&dest=MCN&rlc=GS3

brfares.com is not an accredited TIS and doesn't necessarily use the data that TIS use for applying fares.

 

[RPI]

brfares.com is not an accredited TIS and doesn't necessarily use the data that TIS use for applying fares.

Trainline also doesn't offer groupsave for this journey.

 

[LowLevel]

EMT TVMs for years offered GroupSave Discounts for Cross Country flows like Leicester to Birmingham and had a paper sticker on the machine saying "Don't buy them", in a more detailed fashion. That was a hangover from them bring available under Central Trains and XC declining to participate.

EMR also don't accept GroupSave discounted tickets, but instead have their own product called "Groupsave" which isn't a discount applied, but a separate product entirely.

Not confusing at all is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trainline also doesn't offer groupsave for this journey.

Though that might be because it is a planner based UI that doesn't allow it on TOCs that don't accept it. A TVM with no planner won't necessarily have the data to do that.

 

[ABB125]

One thing to clarify, the warning notice that comes up as displayed in the picture above says that a 34% discount may apply, did you go so far as to actually attempt to put in the groupsave discount?

Yes, see below:


Now for a cat amongst the pigeons: the Groupsave terms and conditions on the public National Rail website include the following line:

Groupsave tickets are valid for travel... on services operated by Transport for Wales as part of a wider journey (eg: Bristol to Swansea).

Does University-Porthmadog count as a "wider journey"?

 

[1955LR]

Now for a cat amongst the pigeons: the Groupsave terms and conditions on the public National Rail website include the following line:

Does University-Porthmadog count as a "wider journey"?
View attachment 105713

I would say University to Porthmadog is a wider journey as it cannot be made solely on a TFW service

 

[Deafdoggie]

So Alsager to Holyhead is also fine.

 

[JaJaWa]

Is the discount in fact valid for OP’s journey then? In which case the message is totally wrong.

 

[ABB125]

Is the discount in fact valid for OP’s journey then?

That's a good question. A friend of mine called National Rail, and apparently they didn't have a clue (which doesn't surprise me!). Similarly with the booking staff at Selly Oak, who said that they didn't know what "as part of a wider journey" meant and the system wouldn't let them sell a groupsave ticket anyway.

In which case the message is totally wrong.

Possibly, but there are quite a few contradictory statements going about. I'll try to create a summary later

 

[island]

I think that the warning message is reasonable in that it tells you that your ticket won't be valid on certain operators.

However, what if you're the forum's favourite niche passenger, a deaf, dumb, blind, wheelchair-bound elderly person with learning difficulties, no smartphone or computer? How do you know who's operating your train when purchasing your ticket from the machine?

You forgot that the only methods of payment they have are £50 notes and a Rail Travel Voucher with a barcode that won't scan

 

[ABB125]

and a Rail Travel Voucher with a barcode that won't scan

I forgot about that! I've experienced it before...

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Though that might be because it is a planner based UI that doesn't allow it on TOCs that don't accept it.

Yes, the RV restriction which describes the GroupSave rules denies use on Transport for Wales services from 0001 to 2358 every day - so good luck finding a train leaving at 2359! But if you were building the data set for a ticket vending machine that had no journey planner built in, you could easily use this and come up with a better message, or for some locations, know that you couldn't offer it at all. It's sloppy, I think, like selling a London Terminals ticket for a location that also needs an Underground journey.

 

[Haywain]

like selling a London Terminals ticket for a location that also needs an Underground journey

Like another London Terminal? That's where the problem you describe most often occurs.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Like another London Terminal?

Edit: sorry, I should have read Haywain's reply more carefully - I've also seen it for journeys departing from an "opposite" terminal, although that was years ago, perhaps they use the permitted group stations data now? That would also stop sale of Not High Speed London Terminals fares from St Pancras. There's a lot that could be improved, even without a timetable.

 

[Haywain]

I've also seen it for journeys departing from an "opposite" terminal,

That's what I'm referring to - I believe it still happens.

 

[Taunton]

Where does Orcats allocate the revenue for such invalid tickets. Is it allocated to the TOC who then says you have to buy fresh tickets, and pockets both sets of revenue?

 

[Haywain]

Where does Orcats allocate the revenue for such invalid tickets. Is it allocated to the TOC who then says you have to buy fresh tickets, and pockets both sets of revenue?

They would be valid tickets except for not covering the underground so revenue for the National Rail journey would be unaffected. If the ticket wasn't used, due to needing one covering the underground, it would be refunded.

 

[mmh]

I agree. The thing is that the only real way to implement that is a planner based TVM. These are the future, but with one that isn't planner based opportunities to do it are limited. The warning, however, is very clear, and should not result in any incorrect purchases.

No thanks. Yesterday I bought a ticket from a TFW ticket machine with about a minute to spare. Tap, tap, tap, card tap, done. I made the train, I'd have missed it if I had to enter dates and times.

 

[Haywain]

I'd have missed it if I had to enter dates and times.

A button marked 'Now' hardly complicates the process. How easy the ticket is to buy tends to depend very much on where you want to go - for the most popular tickets from most stations it can be really easy.

 

[mmh]

A button marked 'Now' hardly complicates the process. How easy the ticket is to buy tends to depend very much on where you want to go - for the most popular tickets from most stations it can be really easy.

It does complicate the process. I spent many years researching human-computer interfaces and usability and accessibility of automated systems. It sounds like you'd be surprised how awful they are to a significant proportion of (I'd actually stick my neck out and say most) people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does complicate the process. I spent many years researching human-computer interfaces and usability and accessibility of automated systems. It sounds like you'd be surprised how awful they are to a significant proportion of (I'd actually stick my neck out and say most) people.

To be fair all TVM UIs are rubbish in the UK. The Dutch, Germans and Swiss have put the effort in properly, and it shows.

 

[JaJaWa]

To be fair all TVM UIs are rubbish in the UK. The Dutch, Germans and Swiss have put the effort in properly, and it shows.

Likewise in China, there are many different designs of machine / manufacturer, yet they all use an identical interface.

 

[Haywain]

It does complicate the process.

So you want a machine that only sells you tickets for immediate travel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you want a machine that only sells you tickets for immediate travel?

To be honest, yes, that's the primary requirement for a TVM, and thus the thing it should make really easy and smooth. The ability to buy one for later or from a different station is a useful addition, but it should be via a separate "buy a ticket for another time" button because it's such a rare use-case.

 

[pelli]

Where does Orcats allocate the revenue for such invalid tickets. Is it allocated to the TOC who then says you have to buy fresh tickets, and pockets both sets of revenue?

They would be valid tickets except for not covering the underground so revenue for the National Rail journey would be unaffected. If the ticket wasn't used, due to needing one covering the underground, it would be refunded.

But what about non-operator-restricted tickets whose revenue is normally split between multiple operators, which after a discount become valid only on one of them, i.e. does Transport for Wales get a share of revenue from a GroupSave discounted (originally operator-unrestricted) Birmingham to Shrewsbury ticket? As you say, if a passenger travels with the wrong operator and has to buy a new ticket then they can refund the unused one, but for all the passengers that travel with the correct operator, does the refusing-to-participate operator get a slice of their pie?

 

[Haywain]

But what about non-operator-restricted tickets whose revenue is normally split between multiple operators, which after a discount become valid only on one of them, i.e. does Transport for Wales get a share of revenue from a GroupSave discounted (originally operator-unrestricted) Birmingham to Shrewsbury ticket? As you say, if a passenger travels with the wrong operator and has to buy a new ticket then they can refund the unused one, but for all the passengers that travel with the correct operator, does the refusing-to-participate operator get a slice of their pie?

Ultimately, that is of no concern to the passenger and does not affect their rights or restrictions. It is an internal matter for the rail industry.

 

[BluePenguin]

Ultimately, that is of no concern to the passenger and does not affect their rights or restrictions. It is an internal matter for the rail industry.

Although for those of us who are interested in the matter, would it be safe for us to assume that the answer is yes? I believe the question is academic. It is not unreasonable either. They get a share of the ticket yet treat passengers as though they have no ticket? Hmmm.

If a TOC cannot be used to complete a journey they should not be receiving monies to provide a service passengers are not entitled to make use of. Punishing them with new tickets if they dare to use it is plain double dipping.

 

[Haywain]

Although for those of us who are interested in the matter, would it be safe for us to assume that the answer is yes? I believe the question is academic. It is not unreasonable either. They get a share of the ticket yet treat passengers as though they have no ticket? Hmmm.

There are all sorts of circumstances where this might happen, but I don't know the answer.

 

[73128]

More complicated for passengers is a journey like Reading to Oxford where Group save is valid on GWR trains but not XC ones. And ticket checking between is not that likely. Warnings on ticket machines, or even by booking offices may well be ignored by customers anyway.