Ticket machines selling GroupSave tickets for journeys where the operator doesn't accept GroupSave

[ABB125]

Suppose I want to make a journey from the West Midlands to the Cambrian Coast, as part of a group. TfW, which would be the primary operator of the journey, doesn't accept GroupSave tickets. However, a WMR ticket machine will happily sell discounted tickets for this journey, albeit with a generic warning message that some operators (including TfW) don't accept GroupSave (see picture).

What would happen if I purchased GroupSave tickets, and then travelled on TfW? Would this be treated as ticketless travel? Or the "I was sold a ticket so it's valid even if it isn't" rule (though I suspect the warning message rules this one out)?
The National Rail website isn't much help - for operators which don't accept GroupSave, the GroupSave page simply says:

GroupSave not accepted - Customer should be advised not to use GroupSave ticket on any trains operated by the TOC

Apart from TfW, which says this:

Transport for Wales do not offer the standard GroupSave discount, but have their own branded discount scheme called Small Group Day

For groups of between 3 and 9 people (either adults or children) travelling together at all times, each ticket will receive a 25% discount. Arriva Trains Wales do not offer special accompanying £1 child fares

Ticket office staff are told to "advise" customers not to travel, but I haven't so far found any guidance on what happens if you do travel.

 

[ainsworth74]

(see picture)

Picture?

 

[ABB125]

Picture?

Oops!
Arriving in a moment...

Now added!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That seems quite clear. Other than a journey planner UI that is quite possibly the best that can be done.

 

[ainsworth74]

Or the "I was sold a ticket so it's valid even if it isn't" rule (though I suspect the warning message rules this one out)?

Yes you could only argue that if there was some sort of ambiguity at the point of sale so with that message on the TVM you'd be on a hiding to nothing there.

 

[JaJaWa]

EMR doesn’t take GroupSave either (on the ex Midland Mainline services at least, their website says not available on some routes without specifying which)

 

[WelshBluebird]

Pretty amazed by the fact the text from NRE manages to call TfW by the correct name and the old name (ATW) in the same paragraph! If the rail industry itself gets confused by ToC names then it is no wonder passengers do too!

Though in terms of the text on the ticket machine, I'm actually pretty impressed. It is pretty clear in its wording and you have to explicitly agree to the terms it is telling you of. Maybe the only change that could be made is an explicit statement of "If you attempt to travel on service operated by one of these train companies then any groupsave ticket purchased is invalid and you will be treated as if you do not posess a valid ticket for travel" or something similar - but I guess at that point the small space available limits how much text can be displayed without the user having to scroll (which is a UX nightmare in itself on those screens).

 

[RPI]

I'd say that's quite clear

 

[Class800]

clear but malevolent? Hopefully the GBR idea will ensure consistency

 

[Bletchleyite]

clear but malevolent?

I don't think it's malevolent.

Hopefully the GBR idea will ensure consistency

I would hope for a national scheme - it is quite useful. But that's for another thread.

 

[Watershed]

The difficulty is - what are you paying for, if you buy a ticket to the Cambrian Coast but the only operator which serves those stations doesn't accept your ticket?

The fact that you are warned is not really relevant if you can't get to your destination by any method.

 

[Class800]

I think it's malevolent for one operator to choose not to support a scheme designed to help group travel and reduce car usage and help the environment. It is malevolent not illegal. In my view.

 

[talltim]

Is the OP asking if the machine should even offer Groupsave tickets where the journey is only possibly using a TOC that doesn't accept Groupsave?

 

[ABB125]

Is the OP asking if the machine should even offer Groupsave tickets where the journey is only possibly using a TOC that doesn't accept Groupsave?

That's kind of what I was asking. I suppose there would be quite a lot of programming involved if you wanted the machines to not offer discounted tickets when the journey can only be made on an operator which doesn't accept them.

The other question was what would happen if I did use the groupsave tickets on TfW...

 

[221129]

The other question was what would happen if I did use the groupsave tickets on TfW

New tickets for everyone.

 

[Watershed]

New tickets for everyone.

I agree it's quite likely you would be charged. That doesn't necessarily mean it would be lawful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree it's quite likely you would be charged. That doesn't necessarily mean it would be lawful.

Because of the warning it would.

 

[plugwash]

What I'd like to know is why are fares that can't reasonably be used in the system at all?!

 

[Haywain]

The difficulty is - what are you paying for, if you buy a ticket to the Cambrian Coast but the only operator which serves those stations doesn't accept your ticket?

GroupSave should only be offered for journeys where it can be used, in the same way as the Network Railcard discount. It's very poor that it is being offered where it can't be used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GroupSave should only be offered for journeys where it can be used, in the same way as the Network Railcard discount.

I agree. The thing is that the only real way to implement that is a planner based TVM. These are the future, but with one that isn't planner based opportunities to do it are limited. The warning, however, is very clear, and should not result in any incorrect purchases.

 

[Class800]

What would be the situation with a ticket routed ANY PERMITTED where it is available on different operators?

 

[Haywain]

What would be the situation with a ticket routed ANY PERMITTED where it is available on different operators?

The discount restricts which operators you can use.

 

[Class800]

So ANY PERMITTED isn't always what it is meant to be. I think this situation does need resolving. Not sure how much hope there is. Only DfT could do it if they wished

 

[Haywain]

So ANY PERMITTED isn't always what it is meant to be. I think this situation does need resolving. Not sure how much hope there is. Only DfT could do it if they wished

There are many cases where this sort of thing happens and it has been happening for many years.

 

[ABB125]

I think that the warning message is reasonable in that it tells you that your ticket won't be valid on certain operators.

However, what if you're the forum's favourite niche passenger, a deaf, dumb, blind, wheelchair-bound elderly person with learning difficulties, no smartphone or computer? How do you know who's operating your train when purchasing your ticket from the machine?

 

[Wallsendmag]

So ANY PERMITTED isn't always what it is meant to be. I think this situation does need resolving. Not sure how much hope there is. Only DfT could do it if they wished

You're making this far too simple, Just as the status of a 16-25 Railcard resticts a ticket under £12 to not be valid before 1000 Groupsave status restricts the ticket to the operators accepting it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

I think that the warning message is reasonable in that it tells you that your ticket won't be valid on certain operators.

However, what if you're the forum's favourite niche passenger, a deaf, dumb, blind, wheelchair-bound elderly person with learning difficulties, no smartphone or computer? How do you know who's operating your train when purchasing your ticket from the machine?

Wheelchair passengers can avail themselves of alternative discounts

 

[ABB125]

Wheelchair passengers can avail themselves of alternative discounts

True!

 

[Watershed]

Because of the warning it would.

How can you sell a ticket to (say) Machynlleth when it can't be used beyond Shrewsbury? Surely you can see that is a contradiction in terms.

The train companies' consideration in the contract is that you will be transported to the destination shown on your ticket. If there is no train you can take where you won't be liable to pay an additional fare, how is that consideration being provided?

 

[RPI]

One thing to clarify, the warning notice that comes up as displayed in the picture above says that a 34% discount may apply, did you go so far as to actually attempt to put in the groupsave discount?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

I've just tried to look up a fare from Birmingham Stations to Machynlleth on my TTK machine at work and there's no fare available with groupsave discount, the TfW Small Group Day fare was available though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

Just tried the same From Sutton Coldfield to Machynlleth and the same, no groupsave fare but the Small group day fare was offered

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing to clarify, the warning notice that comes up as displayed in the picture above says that a 34% discount may apply, did you go so far as to actually attempt to put in the groupsave discount?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

I've just tried to look up a fare from Birmingham Stations to Machynlleth on my TTK machine at work and there's no fare available with groupsave discount, the TfW Small Group Day fare was available though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2021 ==

Just tried the same From Sutton Coldfield to Machynlleth and the same, no groupsave fare but the Small group day fare was offered

Small Group Day is a specific ticket type, whereas GroupSave isn't, it's a discount similar to Railcards.

brfares.com certainly allows it to be applied, so I guess there's nothing in the data preventing it: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BHM&dest=MCN&rlc=GS3