Could Waterloo - Exeter trains be extended to Okehampton?

[uvarvu]

Why isn’t Okehampton being used as a terminus for trains from Waterloo?

 

[Starmill]

Why isn’t Okehampton being used as a terminus for trains from Waterloo?

There doesn't appear to be enough time for them to get from Exeter St Davids to Okehampton and back in the current turnaround time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why isn’t Okehampton being used as a terminus for trains from Waterloo?

why should it be?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why isn’t Okehampton being used as a terminus for trains from Waterloo?

Because you don’t need 6 car trains to Okehampton!

 

[Gloster]

Who is going to use them? Much of the traffic will be to destinations other than London, while most of the passengers to London will probably change at St Davids and use the GWR services. There will be some people who put a premium on price, not having to change, are heading for the area around Waterloo or intermediate stations, but it would surprise me if the numbers are significant.

You are introducing operational complexities: more chances of delays to either service and additional arrangements for train turnaround. All for very little extra revenue.

 

[uvarvu]

why should it be?

Just thought it might relieve any pressure at Exeter; free up space so to speak.

Because you don’t need 6 car trains to Okehampton!

Ahhhh OK didn’t realise the trains are that long! I suppose they could be busy in the short term though.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Just thought it might relieve any pressure at Exeter; free up space so to speak.

St Davids doesn't really have a capacity problem. Sending a service which has to be very finely timed over long stretches of single track but which is largely self-contained across a junction with two other operators and down a 25 mile long single track seems to be asking for trouble.

Not just the OP, but it's quite remarkable how often the idea of extending Waterloo - Exeter services to either Barnstaple or Okehampton comes up on here, yet no-one ever suggests extending the 2 hourly Paddington - Exeter semi-fast to either of those places. I'm not saying the latter would be any better an idea yet no-one ever suggests it. Clearly the pre-September 1964 railway still has a powerful draw 57 years later.

 

[swt_passenger]

Leave SWR with the through secondary service Exeter to Waterloo - and operate the various branches around Exeter - including an extension to Axminster - as a sort of Metro for the Exeter area, using suitable stock.

You could even refer to it as Devon Metro, and include it in route strategy documents over the last decade or so…

 

[bramling]

Leave SWR with the through secondary service Exeter to Waterloo - and operate the various branches around Exeter - including an extension to Axminster - as a sort of Metro for the Exeter area, using suitable stock.

You could even refer to it as Devon Metro, and include it in route strategy documents over the last decade or so…

I do think a “metro” type network with short (ish) services centred around Exeter is the way to go, as is indeed happening.

Whilst it might seem tempting to join Waterloo-Exeter and Exeter-Okehampton / Barnstaple, in practice it introduces too many problems. Too many single-line sections, and also the issue of what happens if a 6-car turns up from Waterloo.

Now if it ran onwards to Tavistock and Plymouth and with much of the previous double track reinstated both east and west of Exeter than that might be another matter entirely, but I can’t see this in my lifetime.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not just the OP, but it's quite remarkable how often the idea of extending Waterloo - Exeter services to either Barnstaple or Okehampton comes up on here, yet no-one ever suggests extending the 2 hourly Paddington - Exeter semi-fast to either of those places. I'm not saying the latter would be any better an idea yet no-one ever suggests it. Clearly the pre-September 1964 railway still has a powerful draw 57 years later.

159s are far more suitable than an 802…
SWR doesn’t have to reverse at Exeter
Okehampton is a local destination and the SWR is more of a semi fast where as Paddington is Intercity

 

[reddragon]

There would be the viability to run a Saturday service from Waterloo to Crediton splitting to Okehampton / Barnstaple one am and one pm, something like the GWR Paddington to Newquay service in the summer only. That's it.

I was on a NR Rail conference yesterday and that was exactly the sort of thing they said they must do in the future to win passengers back to rail.

 

[21C101]

159s are far more suitable than an 802…
SWR doesn’t have to reverse at Exeter
Okehampton is a local destination and the SWR is more of a semi fast where as Paddington is Intercity

Quite.

And the solution to a six car train turning up at Exeter is to divide it like they do at Salisbury.

There is quite a lot of through use from Exeter to Clapham Waterloo, both because getting from Paddington to South London and destinations south thereof (eg Gatwwck) is a pain in the rear. Also because its half the price of the Paddington route. Enough people using it from Exeter that (at least pre Corona) meant it could be hard to find a seat at Yeovil.

It would also mean better stock utilisation and one less an hour through the congested Exeter Central accesible platforms at St Davids.

I gather it was very seriously considered but concerns over adding potential delays over the single line sections between Salisbury to Exeter did for it.

There are plenty though who will angrily attempt to shout down such a suggestion for partisan reasons or because it reverses a decision that was unpopular at the time so involves losing face (even 50 years on).

Wounds run deep on this one, moreso for the singling that WR did than the branch closures (which with the exception of Okehampton SR were planning most of anyway - had they kept the route it would have remained double track with full width Hastings units running from Waterloo to terminii at Okehampton and Barnstaple and a diesel depot at Exmouth Junction servicing these and Thumpers for Exmouth (and Sidmouth/Budleigh if that survived)).

But that of course is precisely why Beeching and Margetts in particular handed the route west of Salisbury (rather than west of Exeter which was more logical) to WR and its fanatical closure gang in Bristol.

Margetts had already tried to persuade the government to shut the whole network west of Exeter (and - less certain - keep the Barnstaple Taunton) at short notice on safety grounds rather than renew the bridges at Cowley Bridge, and veritably ranted at the transport minister when he refused to have any truck with the suggestion (the story of that is all in Kew, I recall Main Line to the West also refers to it).

So Okehampton (or Barnstaple) to Waterloo Trains are sadly a missed opportunity caused by WRs vandalism of the Salisbury to Exeter line, despite the lines overlapping and using basically the same stock, but thank goodness Okebampton trains ARE serving Exeter Central.

 

[reddragon]

Quite.

And the solution to a six car train turning up at Exeter is to divide it like they do at Salisbury.

There is quite a lot of through use from Exeter to Clapham Waterloo, both because getting from Paddington to South London and destinations south thereof (eg Gatwwck) is a pain in the rear. Also because its half the price of the Paddington route. Enough people using it from Exeter that (at least pre Corona) meant it could be hard to find a seat at Yeovil.

It would also mean better stock utilisation and one less an hour through the congested Exeter Central accesible platforms at St Davids.

I gather it was very seriously considered but concerns over adding potential delays over the single line sections between Salisbury to Exeter did for it.

There are plenty though who will angrily attempt to shout down such a suggestion for partisan reasons or because it reverses a decision that was unpopular at the time so involves losing face (even 50 years on).

Wounds run deep on this one, moreso for the singling that WR did than the branch closures (which with the exception of Okehampton SR were planning most of anyway - had they kept the route it would have remained double track with full width Hastings units running from Waterloo to terminii at Okehampton and Barnstaple and a diesel depot at Exmouth Junction servicing these and Thumpers for Exmouth (and Sidmouth/Budleigh if that survived)).

But that of course is precisely why Beeching and Margetts in particular handed the route west of Salisbury (rather than west of Exeter which was more logical) to WR and its fanatical closure gang in Bristol.

Margetts had already tried to persuade the government to shut the whole network west of Exeter (and - less certain - keep the Barnstaple Taunton) at short notice on safety grounds rather than renew the bridges at Cowley Bridge, and veritably ranted at the transport minister when he refused to have any truck with the suggestion (the story of that is all in Kew, I recall Main Line to the West also refers to it).

So Okehampton (or Barnstaple) to Waterloo Trains are sadly a missed opportunity caused by WRs vandalism of the Salisbury to Exeter line, despite the lines overlapping and using basically the same stock, but thank goodness Okebampton trains ARE serving Exeter Central.

I remember a documentary of the time about the state of the railways.

A penniless BR, hated in Government, by the civil services and with actors in the oil / road industry wanting rid of the railways didn't help. At the time the state of tracks & bridges was so bad, that 15 mph limits were common. Singling was done to avoid repairing bridge spans, halving the work, to save repairing 2 tracks with sparse passenger numbers, to reclaim sleepers & rails to use elsewhere as there was no money to buy new, to get rid of infrastructure that needed maintaining, to gain a few years of less vegetation cutting, anything to save pennies.

We all forget the dire state of the railways and it is easy to be partisan and 'blame' Western, but it was following the budgets & policies set for it by the mandarins who didn't care.

 

[21C101]

There would be the viability to run a Saturday service from Waterloo to Crediton splitting to Okehampton / Barnstaple one am and one pm, something like the GWR Paddington to Newquay service in the summer only. That's it.

I was on a NR Rail conference yesterday and that was exactly the sort of thing they said they must do in the future to win passengers back to rail.

I would think such a service would be viable on weekdays too, one am and one PM , certainly to Barnstaple, but I think you need the proposed Dinton to Tisbury (including Station) and Whimple to Cranbrook dynamic loops to enable something that only called at Clapham Jct, Salisbury, Yeovil Jct, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook and Exeter (both) to run reliably.

However Crossrail, if it ever opens is a game changer and it may be preferable to extend the Paddington Exeter Semi Fasts if a 5 car train could be accomodated.

In the longer term with stations at Somerton, Devizes Parkway, Wellington and Cullompton appearing it is to be hoped that the Paddington to Exeter semi fasts will become hourly but thats for the long term

 

[reddragon]

However Crossrail, if it ever opens is a game changer and it may be preferable to extend the Paddington . . . .

Crossrail cannot be extended to Okehampton, the class 345s have no toilets

 

[21C101]

Crossrail cannot be extended to Okehampton, the class 345s have no toilets

Very good.

Heresy Warning!

I actually think there is a case post Crossrail opening for terminating the Waterloo trains at Yeovil and running an hourly Paddington, Reading, Westbury, Frome, Castle Cary, both Yeovils, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Exeter service, some of which could go onto Barnstaple/Oke.

This would give much faster journey times and capacity north of Basingstoke is always going to be an issue to Waterloo.

 

[reddragon]

Very good.

Heresy Warning!

I actually think there is a case post Crossrail opening for terminating the Waterloo trains at Yeovil and running an hourly Paddington, Reading, Westbury, Frome, Castle Cary, both Yeovils, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Exeter service, some of which could go onto Barnstaple/Oke.

This would give much faster journey times and capacity north of Basingstoke is always going to be an issue to Waterloo.

There are many reasons to reinstate Basingstoke to Exeter as a main line with 2 tracks and electrification. Services do not have to come from Waterloo either. It would allow north Devon to be opened up again replacing second homes with a thriving tourist industry more akin to Cornwall and its branches.

The process would take years, but worth it in the end.

 

[30907]

If you want to run beyond Exeter, you might as well go to Barnstaple as there is greater potential.
But you still have the issue of attaching/detaching at St Davids which requires platform or siding space and a shunt driver.
So you save very little on staff, you increase vehicle mileage slightly, you add complexity and reduce reliability - for a small gain in through traffic.

 

[High Dyke]

Good idea. A railway service from London to the South Western area. Now, if only they had a name befitting of the operation?

 

[reddragon]

Good idea. A railway service from London to the South Western area. Now, if only they had a name befitting of the operation?

Atlantic Coast Express Semi Fast?

 

[A0]

There are many reasons to reinstate Basingstoke to Exeter as a main line with 2 tracks and electrification. Services do not have to come from Waterloo either. It would allow north Devon to be opened up again replacing second homes with a thriving tourist industry more akin to Cornwall and its branches.

The process would take years, but worth it in the end.

Erm, how does "reinstating" Basingstoke - Exeter (though to be pedantic, Basingstoke - Salisbury is already 2 track as is Pinhoe - Exeter) allow "north Devon to be opened up again" exactly?

Where do you think these "tourists" will come from ?

And as for Cornwall's branches, remind me again how many have a regular direct service to Plymouth or even Exeter ?

 

[Chester1]

St Davids doesn't really have a capacity problem. Sending a service which has to be very finely timed over long stretches of single track but which is largely self-contained across a junction with two other operators and down a 25 mile long single track seems to be asking for trouble.

Not just the OP, but it's quite remarkable how often the idea of extending Waterloo - Exeter services to either Barnstaple or Okehampton comes up on here, yet no-one ever suggests extending the 2 hourly Paddington - Exeter semi-fast to either of those places. I'm not saying the latter would be any better an idea yet no-one ever suggests it. Clearly the pre-September 1964 railway still has a powerful draw 57 years later.

I wouldn't want a Waterloo to Okehampton service precisely because it would fuel the restore the past brigade. If a London service is important (I am not convinced), then a GWR daily early morning departure and evening return once Okehampton Parkway is opened would be a better option. It would be faster and would appeal to business traffic more than a trundle through Dorset.

 

[reddragon]

Erm, how does "reinstating" Basingstoke - Exeter (though to be pedantic, Basingstoke - Salisbury is already 2 track as is Pinhoe - Exeter) allow "north Devon to be opened up again" exactly?

Where do you think these "tourists" will come from ?

And as for Cornwall's branches, remind me again how many have a regular direct service to Plymouth or even Exeter ?

Before the mass closure of lines in Devon c1970 it was a thriving tourist destination, now it is little more than a second homes area.

The Basingstoke to Exeter line is now a slow line devoid of the double track, signal capacity or track speeds that used to exist. Upgrading it to a faster twin track mainline would enable the route to become more attractive with faster more frequent services. Devon with initially limited through services running faster along the old SW Main line would help the process of restoring Devon back to a destination for holidays as Cornwall is today. With the changes in travel due to covid & climate issues, that traffic does now exist and will only remain if catered for.

The advantage the route has is that it can be done bit by bit, but without a plan nothing would happen. Once the route to Plymouth is restored and it is progressing on the restore the railways programme, that service will be a given so why not start now?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Is there any merit in joining the service from Okehampton or Barnstaple to the one from Exmouth?

 

[reddragon]

What is really needed is a route review and a 25 year plan to bring the SW route back up to where it needs to be today. The value of a more frequent faster route from Salisbury to Devon & an Exeter metro is growing.

 

[High Dyke]

Atlantic Coast Express Semi Fast?

 

[A0]

Before the mass closure of lines in Devon c1970 it was a thriving tourist destination, now it is little more than a second homes area.

The Basingstoke to Exeter line is now a slow line devoid of the double track, signal capacity or track speeds that used to exist. Upgrading it to a faster twin track mainline would enable the route to become more attractive with faster more frequent services. Devon with initially limited through services running faster along the old SW Main line would help the process of restoring Devon back to a destination for holidays as Cornwall is today. With the changes in travel due to covid & climate issues, that traffic does now exist and will only remain if catered for.

The advantage the route has is that it can be done bit by bit, but without a plan nothing would happen. Once the route to Plymouth is restored and it is progressing on the restore the railways programme, that service will be a given so why not start now?

Erm, Exeter already has regular direct services to Bristol, Reading, London, Birmingham and beyond.

All an "upgraded" WoE mainline would be is improving services which cover London, Basingstoke and Sailsbury - I'm not entirely sure they will generate the volumes of tourist demand you seem to think they will.

 

[Mikey C]

Crossrail cannot be extended to Okehampton, the class 345s have no toilets

TfL eyes light up at the prospect of collecting fares from Zone 57 (Okehampton) to Zone 54 (Exeter)

 

[Irascible]

Is there any merit in joining the service from Okehampton or Barnstaple to the one from Exmouth?

Different stock, I think - Barnstaples are 158s at the moment, aren't they? it's a fairly long route with few stops, vs Exmouth-Paignton being the other way. Running the Honiton/Axminsters out to Okehampton might work, if there's any point ( from a utilisation point of view rather than people wanting to go from Honiton to Okehampton a lot... ).

--

NR's document on the WoE line accepted it probably needs work, no plans for more than adding some new loops ( I think this is the right NR document )- definitely not redoubling the lot at the moment. Needs more flexibility at the Exeter end ( but that's been done to death recently in other threads ). From browsing 50s timetables the current service is still quicker to Exeter bar the ACE, which was 10 mins faster... ( tube to Paddington & GWR still thrashes both, obviously ).

If you want people to use trains to take them to the seaside, best ask for trains that can take them to the seaside, not to Plymouth!

 

[AM9]

TfL eyes light up at the prospect of collecting fares from Zone 57 (Okehampton) to Zone 54 (Exeter)

I'm sure that they will be added to the zone 9 list.