Could Waterloo - Exeter trains be extended to Okehampton?

[61653 HTAFC]

Not just the OP, but it's quite remarkable how often the idea of extending Waterloo - Exeter services to either Barnstaple or Okehampton comes up on here, yet no-one ever suggests extending the 2 hourly Paddington - Exeter semi-fast to either of those places. I'm not saying the latter would be any better an idea yet no-one ever suggests it. Clearly the pre-September 1964 railway still has a powerful draw 57 years later.

I think in part it's down to "reversal anxiety": the idea that reversals in service should be avoided at all costs... coupled with nostalgia and the idea of joining services either side of major towns and cities. If the junction for Barnstaple and Okehampton was to the south of St. Davids, nobody would suggest extending Waterloo services there.

It happens elsewhere too- every so often someone will post the idea to extend Sheffield to Huddersfield trains to Bradford, but nobody has (to my knowledge) ever suggested extending them to Manchester, because that would involve the cardinal sin of a reversal!

 

[RPI]

A good reason not to extend the Waterloo-Exeter services has been evident this week, performance West of Salisbury has been pretty bad and once it starts it just escalates with all of the loops, Tuesday there was a three hour gap from Exeter due to two down trains been terminated short

 

[Class172]

Is there any merit in joining the service from Okehampton or Barnstaple to the one from Exmouth?

I think in the past the metro diagrams used to be more complicated with diagrams interweaving Paignton/Exmouth/Barnstaple work, but presumably were split for performance related benefits. I'm not entirely sure but perhaps @RPI may know better.

A good reason not to extend the Waterloo-Exeter services has been evident this week, performance West of Salisbury has been pretty bad and once it starts it just escalates with all of the loops, Tuesday there was a three hour gap from Exeter due to two down trains been terminated short

Indeed, all it takes is one late-running service to cause a cascade of delays due to the multiple single line sections between Exeter and Salisbury.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think in part it's down to "reversal anxiety": the idea that reversals in service should be avoided at all costs... coupled with nostalgia and the idea of joining services either side of major towns and cities. If the junction for Barnstaple and Okehampton was to the south of St. Davids, nobody would suggest extending Waterloo services there.

It happens elsewhere too- every so often someone will post the idea to extend Sheffield to Huddersfield trains to Bradford, but nobody has (to my knowledge) ever suggested extending them to Manchester, because that would involve the cardinal sin of a reversal!

I like your “reversal anxiety” idea. But something tells me there wouldn’t be that much criticism if SWR were invited to renew their extensions to Paignton or Plymouth…

 

[HowardGWR]

Very good.

Heresy Warning!

I actually think there is a case post Crossrail opening for terminating the Waterloo trains at Yeovil and running an hourly Paddington, Reading, Westbury, Frome, Castle Cary, both Yeovils, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Exeter service, some of which could go onto Barnstaple/Oke.

This would give much faster journey times and capacity north of Basingstoke is always going to be an issue to Waterloo.

I am sure you would wish to include OOC sometimes in your stops - for the airport?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'll be honest, the services to and from Exeter and Okenampton should remain self contained - less delays for a start!

 

[21C101]

If you want to run beyond Exeter, you might as well go to Barnstaple as there is greater potential.
But you still have the issue of attaching/detaching at St Davids which requires platform or siding space and a shunt driver.
So you save very little on staff, you increase vehicle mileage slightly, you add complexity and reduce reliability - for a small gain in through traffic.

I would do the ataching and detaching at Central.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2021 ==

I am sure you would wish to include OOC sometimes in your stops - for the airport?

Yes, another reason (and HS2 as much as the airport), if and when OOC happens. It will also give a quick link to Clapham Junction, but once open always not sometime.

Crewkerne to Nottingham in not much more than three hours.

 

[paul1609]

Quite.


There is quite a lot of through use from Exeter to Clapham Waterloo, both because getting from Paddington to South London and destinations south thereof (eg Gatwwck) is a pain in the rear. Also because its half the price of the Paddington route. Enough people using it from Exeter that (at least pre Corona) meant it could be hard to find a seat at Yeovil.

Don't forget that for the 1.5 million of us that live in Kent the walk from the main London Waterloo East Station to the Exeter and Bournemouth Bay platforms is hugely more attractive than a long tube trip to an obscure terminus way out in the Western suburbs.

 

[supervc-10]

A good reason not to extend the Waterloo-Exeter services has been evident this week, performance West of Salisbury has been pretty bad and once it starts it just escalates with all of the loops, Tuesday there was a three hour gap from Exeter due to two down trains been terminated short

It's been dire east of Salisbury too, my poor mother didn't get home from London until 1:30am the other day after everything west of Basingstoke became a bus.

The whole line needs upgrading TBH, but unless you can match/beat the GWR speeds it's always going to be the 2nd option from Exeter to London.
West of Salisbury needs more/longer passing loops to improve resilience, or ideally proper redoubling. Extending to Okehampton though? Not convinced. The occasional through train might work but like the old SWT services to Penzance and Paignton, I think it's best left to GWR at the current time.

 

[Irascible]

It's been dire east of Salisbury too, my poor mother didn't get home from London until 1:30am the other day after everything west of Basingstoke became a bus.

The whole line needs upgrading TBH, but unless you can match/beat the GWR speeds it's always going to be the 2nd option from Exeter to London.
West of Salisbury needs more/longer passing loops to improve resilience, or ideally proper redoubling. Extending to Okehampton though? Not convinced. The occasional through train might work but like the old SWT services to Penzance and Paignton, I think it's best left to GWR at the current time.

From looking at old timetables it always was the 2nd option! but yes it does need some work - unfortunately so does the entire Exeter area, the signalling is 40 years old & apparently extremely awkward to do anything with outside St Davids itself. The route has some merits of it's own aside being cheaper, it's ( IMO ) more comfortable & generally pleasant than the current state of GW. I'll take the extra hour if it's in comfort. Okehampton wasn't ever a final destination anyway, just a point to drop off or collect the Bude/Padstow parts on the meander round to Plymouth for the services that didn't stop at Exeter.

 

[supervc-10]

I'm not entirely sure I'd take the extra hour on a 159 vs an 802- I don't find Sofias that bad, and being 6'2 find the 159s quite cramped. Although their ride is excellent! (but this is a discussion for another thread)

If nothing else it's resilience that the route needs. Issues down in Dorset cause knock-on effects all the way up to Waterloo because of the intensive nature of the SWML. In an ideal world, there would be a rolling program of re-doubling, along with electrification. Unfortunately, the treasury does not aim for that ideal world!

Adding complexity to the route isn't a good idea IMO. No route works if people can't rely on it. The majority of people outside of London and maybe Manchester or Birmingham have access to a car. If the train is perpetually late because it gets stuck outside Tisbury for 20 minutes and all you're trying to do is get home to Okehampton from Exeter, well, you're going to drive next time.

A few through trains, especially on days when tourist traffic to the area is at its peak, might make sense. Tying all operations on the route to a 170mile route through single track hell and then commuter hell isn't a great idea.

 

[Irascible]

If ex-Waterloo trains continue using P1 & Okehampton shuttles get to use the reworked P2 ( the Exe valley bay ) then a change isn't much effort. Even less effort if they can run up to Central.

With how long the Axminster loop took I'm not sure I'll be alive long enough to see the rest sorted...

 

[RPI]

From looking at old timetables it always was the 2nd option! but yes it does need some work - unfortunately so does the entire Exeter area, the signalling is 40 years old & apparently extremely awkward to do anything with outside St Davids itself. The route has some merits of it's own aside being cheaper, it's ( IMO ) more comfortable & generally pleasant than the current state of GW. I'll take the extra hour if it's in comfort. Okehampton wasn't ever a final destination anyway, just a point to drop off or collect the Bude/Padstow parts on the meander round to Plymouth for the services that didn't stop at Exeter.

The oke line is controlled from Crediton box

 

[Irascible]

The oke line is controlled from Crediton box

Yeah, discussion at the moment quoted was general WoE line updates & bottlenecks. Good job we still have Crediton box!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Aside from the very good reliability reasons for keeping the Okehampton service self-contained, there is a minor advantage that, by keeping it self-contained and running some services to Exeter Central, you're slightly increasing the St. Davids - Central frequency, and so making it a bit easier for people arriving at St Davids on other services to get to Central. Running Waterloo services through to Okehampton would lose that benefit.

 

[RPI]

Aside from the very good reliability reasons for keeping the Okehampton service self-contained, there is a minor advantage that, by keeping it self-contained and running some services to Exeter Central, you're slightly increasing the St. Davids - Central frequency, and so making it a bit easier for people arriving at St Davids on other services to get to Central. Running Waterloo services through to Okehampton would lose that benefit.

This would be of benefit if/when Cullompton and Wellington reopen with services running between Cardiff and Penzance so no scope to go to Central.

 

[tbtc]

If you want to run beyond Exeter, you might as well go to Barnstaple as there is greater potential

True

This feels a bit like the "Distracted Boyfriend" meme (the one of the guy looking over his shoulder at a "new" woman whilst his existing girlfriend looks at him in disgust)

Barnstaple (pop 25,000) has been open throughout, with no big talk of through London trains, but the minute anyone talks about Okehampton (pop 5,000 the debate turns to through Waterloo trains

Yes, Okehampton will attract some tourists (even if people mistakenly think that Barnstaple wouldn't) , but then the same is true of Torbay and there's no major suggestions that we restart the Waterloo - Paignton services that were chopped some years ago either

There's something about reconnecting stations like Waterloo to Okehampton that can turn some fairly experienced/cynical posters into crayonista fanboys though, most odd!

as for Cornwall's branches, remind me again how many have a regular direct service to Plymouth or even Exeter ?

True - maybe if some of these Cornish branch lines had been closed for fifty years we'd see the re-opening proposals suggest that they'd benefit from InterCity services including through London trains, rather than "just" being a perfectly adequate shuttle to the main line (but then, I've said before that, if BR had managed to close the Settle & Carlisle in the 1980s as they planned, we'd now be seeing threads suggesting that it would have a half hourly London - Glasgow service running up it if only it had remained open rather than just a bi-hourly Sprinter from Leeds to Carlisle - sometimes it's better for a route to close and people imagine just how busy it might be than accept the reality of fairly underwhelming passenger numbers)

 

[Irascible]

Barnstaple (pop 25,000) has been open throughout, with no big talk of through London trains, but the minute anyone talks about Okehampton (pop 5,000 the debate turns to through Waterloo trains

Yes, Okehampton will attract some tourists (even if people mistakenly think that Barnstaple wouldn't) , but then the same is true of Torbay and there's no major suggestions that we restart the Waterloo - Paignton services that were chopped some years ago either

Barnstaple used to have through trains which terminated there - Okehampton was never a Waterloo service terminus ( someone's going to dig up something from 1860 that shows it was, but in general ), so this one is even wierder.

True - maybe if some of these Cornish branch lines had been closed for fifty years we'd see the re-opening proposals suggest that they'd benefit from InterCity services including through London trains, rather than "just" being a perfectly adequate shuttle to the main line

I think a couple run through to Penzance occasionally, but I am a little doubtful that it's to make life easier for passengers in some way. Does Newquay still have the odd summer through train? I haven't looked for a long time.

 

[reddragon]

I think that you will find that the suggestion is that a daily train runs through from Waterloo to Okehampton / Barnstable as per the old Atlantic Coast Express days to help build a longer term trade as is done for Newquay and the rest of Cornwall.

Same economics as the GWR route.

I doubt if many will travel from Waterloo but maybe many would from intermediate stops.

 

[The Ham]

Very good.

Heresy Warning!

I actually think there is a case post Crossrail opening for terminating the Waterloo trains at Yeovil and running an hourly Paddington, Reading, Westbury, Frome, Castle Cary, both Yeovils, Crewkerne, Axminster, Honiton, Cranbrook, Exeter service, some of which could go onto Barnstaple/Oke.

This would give much faster journey times and capacity north of Basingstoke is always going to be an issue to Waterloo.

Other than the Exeter Semi fasts I'm not sure we'll see any extra services towards Exeter due to Crossrail, unless someone does something about the line South of Reading West (even then XC would like an extra 0.5tph and there's likely to be demand for more freight as well).

In a post Crossrail 2 world there's likely to be the potential for more services from Waterloo, which would likely be justified by Waterloo to Basingstoke partner numbers with extensions possible.

Back to the main subject, no. Trains between Waterloo and Okehampton currently aren't a good idea (with the possible exception of maybe an early/late service where there's less risk of delays mounting up).

As others have pointed out, in the future (especially with a through line to Plymouth) this could change, and it's worth any future through scheme looking at if such through running improves the business case.

 

[21C101]

Other than the Exeter Semi fasts I'm not sure we'll see any extra services towards Exeter due to Crossrail, unless someone does something about the line South of Reading West (even then XC would like an extra 0.5tph and there's likely to be demand for more freight as well).

Genuine question, what is the issue south of Reading West and how is it connected to Crossrail.

Abolition of the Heathrow Express and its replacement with an increase in crossrail services to Heathrow from 4 to 8 TPH and all on the slow line instead of clogging up the fast would help.

 

[The Ham]

Genuine question, what is the issue south of Reading West and how is it connected to Crossrail.

Abolition of the Heathrow Express and its replacement with an increase in crossrail services to Heathrow from 4 to 8 TPH and all on the slow line instead of clogging up the fast would help.

The issue is that by the time you've got your 3.5tph (2*GWR and 1.5XC) passenger services towards Basingstoke as well as the freight which goes that way as well, then you've added in your services to Newbury, Bedwyn and towards Exeter then the flat junction has little/no capacity for anything else. As such, even if you did the capacity into Paddington there's no scope for other services that way.

I'm not sure that there's space for more services on the slow lines. Given that Heathrow connect used to run 2tph, under Crossrail that was due to increase to 6tph.

There's also a local MP (lives on the line between Basingstoke and Reading) who wants the Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke.

 

[21C101]

There's also a local MP (lives on the line between Basingstoke and Reading) who wants the Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke.

Thanks, re the MP. That is silly, if you are going to run Basingstoke to Paddington, you don't want it to be an extended all stations stopper.

 

[The Ham]

Thanks, re the MP. That is silly, if you are going to run Basingstoke to Paddington, you don't want it to be an extended all stations stopper.

Indeed.

 

[47827]

If it didn't present any insignificant diagramming or crewing issues perhaps the only option would be a token link from Okehampton early morning (stealing a shuttle path) involving a short IET set which would probably have to join with another similar set coming in from Paignton/Plymouth/Penzance to make it more viable. Similar returning at night.

I'm doubtful it'll happen in the near future though as through London traffic would probably take some time to develop, but as with other IC links that have run briefly or for a while it's not impossible it won't be done eventually as a political exercise. Doubtful there would ever be be multiple services each direction though as the hourly shuttle should eventually provide adequately for most rail users.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that you will find that the suggestion is that a daily train runs through from Waterloo to Okehampton / Barnstable as per the old Atlantic Coast Express days to help build a longer term trade as is done for Newquay and the rest of Cornwall.

But why here, and not for where there is already demand, eg St Ives or Falmouth?

 

[reddragon]

But why here, and not for where there is already demand, eg St Ives or Falmouth?

Neither of those are possible due to track, service & platform constraints.

Newquay works due to its long isolated branch with a scant service plus a Saturday weekly holiday switchover.

Barnstaple & Okehampton have this opportunity, with Oke having the future prospect of links to Plymouth and being a rail head.

 

[30907]

Newquay works due to its long isolated branch with a scant service plus a Saturday weekly holiday switchover.

Or in other words, being a substantial holiday resort in its own right, unlike Barnstaple & Okehampton.

 

[Bald Rick]

Neither of those are possible due to track, service & platform constraints.

Much like Okehampton then!

Oke having the future prospect of links to Plymouth

It doesn’t.

 

[reddragon]

Much like Okehampton then!



It doesn’t.

Okehampton has a direct track from Waterloo via Exeter, St Ives does not. Oke has a platform long enough to accommodate the trains, the reversing platform at St Erth and St Ives station do not, the passing loop & bay on the Falmouth branch are too short.

There are serious proposals to reopen the route via Okehampton supported by the re-opening your railways programme, all local authorities and NR. That is a future prospect whatever your opinion