RMT Ballot Avanti West Coast Members For Strike Action

[800001]

I have to say the changes that Avanti have brought in are hardly the end of the world. So, you have to scan tickets now? Deliver food now? Etc. People only causing a fuss because they actually have to do work now rather than hide in one of the carriages as I have witnessed on countless journeys.

Quite simple really, don't want to do it? Then find another job. Plenty of people out there who would happy to do it.

A strike will not win you the public support.

Things that lner are doing now.
I don't hear lner catering crew moaning or demanding more because they now have to deliver orders to customers seats, infact the staff like it, and seem to thrive on how large there sales total is.
Also lner Train Managers have been using scanners for tickets for ages, makes job a bit easier I would say, as the beeps the scanner makes, highlights errors with tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tape measure scenario, that's putting one or more person at the uniform supplier out of a job.

That is quite literally Luddism. Whether someone else in a totally unconnected role in a totally unrelated business (presumably this is a contracted-in matter) has a job is not your problem, and strike action on those grounds is illegal.

 

[221129]

Things that lner are doing now.
I don't hear lner catering crew moaning or demanding more because they now have to deliver orders to customers seats, infact the staff like it, and seem to thrive on how large there sales total is.
Also lner Train Managers have been using scanners for tickets for ages, makes job a bit easier I would say, as the beeps the scanner makes, highlights errors with tickets.

Presumably implemented with a reasonable attitude from management and with reasonable staffing numbers. Which is where the issue at Avanti mostly stems from.

 

[800001]

A lot of mostly RMT nonsense it seems to an outsider (union rep) like myself.

We have various apps added/swapped/removed all the time to our work phones and no branch of my union’s every batted an eyelid. I just can’t see a possible (legal) situation involving apps that doesn’t already exist in the workplace somewhere already could be an issue for dispute. I’m open to to being enlightened though in terms of these Avanti apps.


I took this to be a joke. If I’m mistaken, why do staff even need an app to get their uniform size? Surely they’d be aware of their general clothing size already no? Then it’s a simple case of what needs swapping for a different size is swapped.


As for the standard premier (SP) issue of staff not knowing who’s SP and who’s first class. If the way management have implemented it is causing genuine issues, then to my mind there’s a better way to deal with it. In mixed coaches where it’s not genuinely clear who’s who after all expected checks are carried out, serve everyone as first (like someone on here said happened to them), apologies to first ticket holders and suggest they write in and complain. I must admit though, my first thought on this was surely staff could simply check and are they just upset at having to do the extra work this would have created. With one of the issues raised by the RMT being at seat service, I can see why that thought sprung to mind.

When I've travelled first class on Great Western and also East Midlands, when catering crew come around with the trolley they have always asked to see tickets of everyone in carriage before issuing the complimentary items. Unsure if that is what they are meant ro do, but it works, why can't Avanti catering hosts do that as well?

 

[Wolfie]

Presumably implemented with a reasonable attitude from management and with reasonable staffing numbers. Which is where the issue at Avanti mostly stems from.

I don't wish to sound rude but if many Avanti WC onboard staff spent more time actually working rather than sat talking to each other l might be rather more sympathetic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't wish to sound rude but if many Avanti WC onboard staff spent more time actually working rather than sat talking to each other l might be rather more sympathetic.

I wonder if the loss of being able to sit around chatting in Coach K is at the root of all this.

A waiter in a restaurant would be expected to be working constantly throughout their shift, other than for clearly defined breaks. I've never understood why on-board service staff are somehow different, given that they are, essentially, waiters, just ones that do that job in a moving vehicle (and as a consequence of that get paid rather more than most people doing that job "on land").

 

[43066]

I didn't say that. But people often quip how it is "impossible to fire anyone on the railway" and having seen disciplinary & grievance cases myself, I would generally agree.

I have to say in my experience the idea it’s “impossible to fire anyone” is a bit of a myth. I’ve seen a few sacked for various reasons in my time on the railway, albeit for perfectly valid reasons in each case. Drivers (especially newly qualified ones) are at serious risk if they rack up a few incidents in a short time and management start to view them as a liability.

The union’s role is really only to provide representation/advice and to ensure procedures are correctly followed. That certainly does not change the outcome

 

[LowLevel]

I didn't say that. But people often quip how it is "impossible to fire anyone on the railway" and having seen disciplinary & grievance cases myself, I would generally agree. Therefore is someone has been dismissed, then yes, I tend to think that it probably is for good reason. There are so many hoops and appeals to jump through to ensure its a dismissal that is fair. HR also work alongside managers - the last thing they want is a tribunal for unfair dismissal that succeeds.

I've known plenty of people be sacked on the railway and many have deserved it but not all. It's certainly not impossible in any case.

I have to say the changes that Avanti have brought in are hardly the end of the world. So, you have to scan tickets now? Deliver food now? Etc. People only causing a fuss because they actually have to do work now rather than hide in one of the carriages as I have witnessed on countless journeys.

Quite simple really, don't want to do it? Then find another job. Plenty of people out there who would happy to do it.

A strike will not win you the public support.

One of the golden rules of striking - no one cares about public support. It is rarely if ever forthcoming if you're inconveniencing them directly. If you've decided to take strike action the impact on the public is regrettable but won't be a factor in the case put forward in the ballot. People are fickle.

If changes to working practices take place, especially if you've gone from a relatively well thought of employer like Virgin to a shower like Avanti (aka First, and of course they're crap) then there is going to be resistance.

It’s part of their job. If they are not doing it, they need managing so that they do. They should categorically not be being incentivised to do what they are already being paid to do.

Incentives to conduct elements of jobs more rigorously are a thing throughout industry. Management bonuses, sales commission etc. Northern already pay 2p per scan, EMR have offered 3p for their local guards. Never before have the crews been so pressured to collect sales and marketing data on customers in real time - they literally want everyone to be scanned, throughout every stage of their journey, constantly. A few pence per scan is nothing to the company compared to what the data and inability to refund tickets is worth.

This goes back to the 80s when BR dispensed with it's on board and station based ticket inspectors for the most part with the open stations concept and moved their responsibilities to the guard - they started paying the hitherto mainly non customer facing and non revenue guards commission to engage them in revenue duties.

I come from outside of the industry originally though I've been here a long time now and I do agree the practice of seeking 50 quid or whatever in new tech payments to use a different phone is ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If changes to working practices take place, especially if you've gone from a relatively well thought of employer like Virgin to a shower like Avanti (aka First, and of course they're crap) then there is going to be resistance.

I can certainly, as a passenger, see how awful Avanti has been so far - "lackadaisical rubbish" is I think a fair description of the TOC - and thus how much disquiet that alone will cause to industrial relations. I guess it could have come about that way rather than that the specific listed issues started it.

Not everyone likes Virgin glitz, but Avanti has the feeling of run-down latter-years BR without the management competence that had, to be honest.

 

[Stigy]

I doubt you’d be bullied, you’d probably just struggle to find anybody to help you out for the rest of your time as a driver.

So they’d basically blackmail me instead. I’m really not warming to this sense of “brotherhood”…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2021 ==

But would probably still take any benefits that came out of the strike action though.

Well what’s the alternative? Even those not in the Union benefit from the outcome of strike action. I’m not saying that I think unions are all bad,
I’m simply saying that I’d support any action that I agree with. For example, in the current climate, there’s no way I’d actively support action in relation to an increase in pay, simply because I fee we’d be making a Rod for our own backs, and let’s face it, the money’s not bad as it is.

I don’t understand why funding the Union isn’t enough? Why can’t I just pay my subs, safe in the knowledge that I’ll be supported if I needed it?

 

[ComUtoR]

May I ask what the scanning is all about ?

Northern already pay 2p per scan, EMR have offered 3p for their local guards.

I'm concerned about this portion. Are the TOCs data harvesting in some way ? How does that sit with GDPR etc. Does a customer have to have their ticket scanned or can they simply show the ticket ?

Never before have the crews been so pressured to collect sales and marketing data on customers in real time - they literally want everyone to be scanned, throughout every stage of their journey, constantly. A few pence per scan is nothing to the company compared to what the data and

How does the scan stop a refund ?

inability to refund tickets is worth.

I come from outside of the industry originally though I've been here a long time now and I do agree the practice of seeking 50 quid or whatever in new tech payments to use a different phone is ridiculous.

I came from the outside too but most do nowadays. However, I don't believe its just about the introduction of new technology that's the issue. How things are implemented and the new responsibilities you may be given.

One off payments are a pretty sensible approach. From a business point it can make sense. If you introduce something you can pay off your existing staff to help push something through and then once implemented there are no further issues. It becomes part and parcel of the job. Any new starters have it as part of their role and any training can be implemented through the normal means. There are some who believe that introducing new contracts for new starters is a way forward to implement change and to avoid industrial action but they don't then see the issues with a two tier workforce. A quick payment or a 1hr overtime payment to attend a briefing can be far easier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does the scan stop a refund ?

It records that the ticket has been used (and where, when etc). This would come up when a refund was requested and so it would be denied unless there was other evidence that one should be paid, e.g. severe disruption meaning the ticketholder gave up and went home.

It also helps show that a ticket was used on a given delayed train, reducing fraudulent delay repay claims (and potentially later even enabling automated ones for non-Advance tickets).

 

[221129]

How does the scan stop a refund ?

It marks it as used, and it will in theory tell you where, when and by whom.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers Gents

 

[LowLevel]

May I ask what the scanning is all about ?


I'm concerned about this portion. Are the TOCs data harvesting in some way ? How does that sit with GDPR etc. Does a customer have to have their ticket scanned or can they simply show the ticket ?



How does the scan stop a refund ?






I came from the outside too but most do nowadays. However, I don't believe its just about the introduction of new technology that's the issue. How things are implemented and the new responsibilities you may be given.

One off payments are a pretty sensible approach. From a business point it can make sense. If you introduce something you can pay off your existing staff to help push something through and then once implemented there are no further issues. It becomes part and parcel of the job. Any new starters have it as part of their role and any training can be implemented through the normal means. There are some who believe that introducing new contracts for new starters is a way forward to implement change and to avoid industrial action but they don't then see the issues with a two tier workforce. A quick payment or a 1hr overtime payment to attend a briefing can be far easier.

The TOCs will know which trains flexible and season tickets are being used on, which helps greatly with yield management, as well as which routes are being taken if they're flexible. If the ticket is "clipped", the app will no longer allow the customer to refund it as if it is an unused ticket, whereas if it is just glanced at there's nothing in theory to stop people from just claiming their money back.

It also stops people from using photoshopped forged tickets.

 

[221129]

I'm concerned about this portion. Are the TOCs data harvesting in some way ? How does that sit with GDPR etc. Does a customer have to have their ticket scanned or can they simply show the ticket ?

If they refuse to have it scanned then it raises suspicions somewhat (fake ticket, multiple use etc) the TOCs already have the data, it provides more infor about travel patterns etc and can be used to develop future services, timetables etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One off payments are a pretty sensible approach. From a business point it can make sense. If you introduce something you can pay off your existing staff to help push something through and then once implemented there are no further issues. It becomes part and parcel of the job. Any new starters have it as part of their role and any training can be implemented through the normal means. There are some who believe that introducing new contracts for new starters is a way forward to implement change and to avoid industrial action but they don't then see the issues with a two tier workforce. A quick payment or a 1hr overtime payment to attend a briefing can be far easier.

This is probably because in most other industries contracts are not consistent, so two (or many) tier workforces are very common. It's quite usual, and doesn't seem unreasonable, that someone who'd been there a while might be on a different contract to someone who was much newer.

 

[Stigy]

I think clause 9 is they’ve put you on notice of termination. Happy to be corrected though.



If members don’t agree with the stance of the union they should turn up to meetings and voice their issues/stand for positions. Voting no on the ballot paper sends a message to the company that the union is weak.
Crossing a picket line is not the right thing to do. If money is an issue the unions have hardship funds.

Will a hardship fund pay me at least my basic salary for as long as I needed it?

 

[Fokx]

May I ask what the scanning is all about ?


I'm concerned about this portion. Are the TOCs data harvesting in some way ? How does that sit with GDPR etc. Does a customer have to have their ticket scanned or can they simply show the ticket ?



How does the scan stop a refund ?

1 - Scanning aztec/QR code tickets on apps, mobiles, PDF’s and printed tickets.

2 - Yes a passenger is obliged to have their ticket scanned. Failure to allow a member of the railway to do this is failure to display a valid ticket in the same regard that if your phone is dead or screen cracked they cannot scan the ticket, you will be required to pay for a new one or penalty fare.

The data produces your name (if connected to trainline/app) and where your tickets have been scanned such as barriers, revenue lines or previous services. It doesn’t tell the person anything more.

3- Scanning a ticket marks it as used. A few passengers will refund their ticket if it has not been scanned at all during their journey. See the disputes and prosecutions fourum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TOCs will know which trains flexible and season tickets are being used on, which helps greatly with yield management, as well as which routes are being taken if they're flexible. If the ticket is "clipped", the app will no longer allow the customer to refund it as if it is an unused ticket, whereas if it is just glanced at there's nothing in theory to stop people from just claiming their money back.

It also stops people from using photoshopped forged tickets.

The one thing I'm slightly concerned about as a passenger is if they'll start sending "letters before action" out to passengers who e.g. are unwittingly off-route and the likes, so they will have to be quite careful how they use this data.

 

[221129]

The one thing I'm slightly concerned about as a passenger is if they'll start sending "letters before action" out to passengers who e.g. are unwittingly off-route and the likes, so they will have to be quite careful how they use this data.

Surely that would be no different to being reported as could be the case now? And depending how well the back end system is set up it could reduce the amount of arguments about routing and Off peak times etc...

 

[ComUtoR]

If they refuse to have it scanned then it raises suspicions somewhat (fake ticket, multiple use etc) the TOCs already have the data, it provides more infor about travel patterns etc and can be used to develop future services, timetables etc.

Ok, happy to accept that there is data harvesting for ticket useage etc and I support that; a little. Are they getting personal data or just ticket information ? If I buy an eticket from an app/website the TOC wouldn't have my email address or any personal data. If my ticket was scanned do they have access to that or is it literally just ticket type information ? Cheers in advance; as always.

 

[221129]

If I buy an eticket from an app/website the TOC wouldn't have my email address or any personal data.

Yes they would.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely that would be no different to being reported as could be the case now?

Much less likely to happen now - most gateline staff will let stuff like that go if you sound genuine, typically just pointing out the error. Whereas if you've got "big data" you can automatically summons everyone who had a "not valid at this NLC" come up at a gateline, for instance.

 

[221129]

If my ticket was scanned do they have access to that or is it literally just ticket type information ? Cheers in advance; as always.

I don't believe that the guard would have access to any personal data but the TOC would. But they would have that or be able to get that information if required anyway for any ticket brought online or through the various app

 

[Fokx]

Ok, happy to accept that there is data harvesting for ticket useage etc and I support that; a little. Are they getting personal data or just ticket information ? If I buy an eticket from an app/website the TOC wouldn't have my email address or any personal data. If my ticket was scanned do they have access to that or is it literally just ticket type information ? Cheers in advance; as always.

No just your name (and not always), nothing more.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is probably because in most other industries contracts are not consistent, so two (or many) tier workforces are very common. It's quite usual, and doesn't seem unreasonable, that someone who'd been there a while might be on a different contract to someone who was much newer.

Other industries do many different things and have many different terms and conditions. If 'The Railway' should bring themselves in line with other industries then should we then introduce bonuses, Monday-Friday working, signing bonuses, golden handcuff incentives, etc etc ?

 

[Fokx]

I don't believe that the guard would have access to any personal data but the TOC would. But they would have that or be able to get that information if required anyway for any ticket brought online or through the various app

They’d get the data but not personal information.

It might be something on the lines of ‘ticket user 66662’ travels 5 days a week on the 8.06 train from A to B but they won’t be able to see personal information without requesting it from the ticket provider (if it wasn’t their own app)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Other industries do many different things and have many different terms and conditions. If 'The Railway' should bring themselves in line with other industries then should we then introduce bonuses, Monday-Friday working, signing bonuses, golden handcuff incentives, etc etc ?

If they make business sense for the railway to introduce, then yes. Otherwise, no.

 

[LowLevel]

One thing I believe that now happens is any ticket scanned as attempted to be used when refunded is automatically flagged up to the relevant manager at the TOC to consider whether it is being misused, they can make a subject access request to the retailer for the history I believe and if they're constantly refunding tickets may receive one of these letters we've started hearing about.