RMT Ballot Avanti West Coast Members For Strike Action

[GRALISTAIR]

The person in question is male (and presumably happily identifies as such). Are you suggesting they don’t refer to female members as ‘sister’?

I prefer a gender neutral noun in this context personally but hey I won’t make a big song and dance about it. Colleagues sounds better imho

 

[Sheridan]

I prefer a gender neutral noun in this context personally but hey I won’t make a big song and dance about it. Colleagues sounds better imho

I’m all for gender-neutral language where appropriate but in this context where the member’s identity is known I can’t see it’s a particular problem. On a wider point, unions will have to ensure they are using language which represents all members, but that wider issue doesn’t have any real impact here from what I can see.

 

[Starmill]

Because they add more and more to your duties without consultation, little by little, getting you to performs activities that are outside your (already negotiated) terms and conditions for no extra pay then you're in effect working extra, for free.

The tape measure scenario, that's putting one or more person at the uniform supplier out of a job.

How is scanning a ticket adding anything more to the duties of the train manager ? It's exactly the same duty that they were previously carrying out with their eyes, only now it's potentially easier and quicker. The second point doesn't really make sense either.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Don't expect Avanti to be the last to announce strike action either.

From the RMT meeting I've just attended today, believe me, it is.

Aye, there's trouble brewing in t'TPE mill....

How is scanning a ticket adding anything more to the duties of the train manager ? It's exactly the same duty that they were previously carrying out with their eyes, only now it's potentially easier and quicker. The second point doesn't really make sense either.

The purpose is to incentivise staff to actually use the equipment and in this case carry out ticketing checks. There is a financial benefit to the rail industry by getting these tickets clipped or scanned and staff naturally want a piece of the pie.

 

[Starmill]

Aye, there's trouble brewing in t'TPE mill....



The purpose is to incentivise staff to actually use the equipment and in this case carry out ticketing checks. There is a financial benefit to the rail industry by getting these tickets clipped or scanned and staff naturally want a piece of the pie.

And if as at Northern they're willing to offer it, great. However, if they're not, then as I asked how is it actually making the job more difficult or increasing the work that is to be done?

The claim was that it's akin to unpaid work.

 

[the sniper]

I don't like the term. I can have 'solidarity' with people and feel like a "railway family" without ncessarily wanted to call people brother or sister.

It is funny how 'railway family' is so warmly embraced/overused by the industry yet 'brother' and 'sister' are unacceptable. What relation are we all in this railway family? We've had plenty of weird uncles, I'll give you that.

Brother is also a masculine noun. So do they not want female votes?

At least try... The RMT is a big target, there's no need to be so far off.

 

[Efini92]

What was the Accused of doing to get clause 9?

 

[Carlisle]

It is funny how 'railway family' is so warmly embraced/overused by the industry yet 'brother' and 'sister' are unacceptable. What relation are we all in this railway family?

The concept of a ‘railway family’ hasn’t really been fostered or encouraged by the industry in any meaningful way since privatisation in my experience, but who knows what’ll happen in the future ,

 

[AlterEgo]

It does warrant action if it's dumped on staff with no extra pay for doing so

Only if it makes their job harder or gives them additional duties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2021 ==

I stand by my words, people I've worked with for many years, and not just one person who left the union purely so they didn't have to strike. The union is only as strong as it members. That's the problem with the railway nowadays, too many "I'm alright Jack" types.

One of the biggest problems on the railway front line is a large number of unashamed bullies, almost always men of a certain age.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Its 2p per scan at Northern

We don't get that,time to see my rep!

What was the Accused of doing to get clause 9?

What's clause 9,is that like the old Form 1?

 

[320320]

I didn't say that. But people often quip how it is "impossible to fire anyone on the railway" and having seen disciplinary & grievance cases myself, I would generally agree. Therefore is someone has been dismissed, then yes, I tend to think that it probably is for good reason. There are so many hoops and appeals to jump through to ensure its a dismissal that is fair. HR also work alongside managers - the last thing they want is a tribunal for unfair dismissal that succeeds.

So anyone that is facing disciplinary action is already guilty in your eyes just because manage

One doesn’t have to cancel one’s membership in order to “scab”. I’d strike break if I didn’t agree with the reason for the strike and would not be bullied. The way I see it, is I pay the Union for a service, so they’re there when I need them. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything they do and I’d certainly not be all brother this and sister that.

You don’t have to agree with every reason for strike action and you can even vote against it if it’s serious enough for a ballot but you should honour the result of the outcome.

Id imagine you’d get one chance at breaking the strike before your membership was terminated and you’d no longer have the option to “pay the union for a service”, you certainly get no support from your colleagues if you required it after that point.

 

[londonteacher]

I have to say the changes that Avanti have brought in are hardly the end of the world. So, you have to scan tickets now? Deliver food now? Etc. People only causing a fuss because they actually have to do work now rather than hide in one of the carriages as I have witnessed on countless journeys.

Quite simple really, don't want to do it? Then find another job. Plenty of people out there who would happy to do it.

A strike will not win you the public support.

 

[Stigy]

You don’t have to agree with every reason for strike action and you can even vote against it if it’s serious enough for a ballot but you should honour the result of the outcome.

Utter rubbish. Loads of people are union members but won’t strike. For starters you don’t get paid to strike and not everyone can afford it, and you also risk dismissal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2021 ==

Why bother being in the union at all? If you won’t support them, they probably won’t put much effort into supporting you if you do happen to need them anyway.

I support them for the right causes. I didn’t say otherwise. I simply said I wouldn’t strike if I didn’t support the cause and wouldn’t be bullied.

 

[Agent_Squash]

To be blunt - the railway was the only public transport subsidised during lockdown by central government directly. The DfT and Treasury expect their moneys worth.

I’ve noticed a lot better service being delivered on some TOCs since (Northern!) but Avanti has gone massively downhill since VTWC. And the important thing to remember is Avanti doesn’t have a commuter base - it needs the leisure demand to survive and thrive.

Striking over using an app on a work phone won’t win any sympathy - it’ll put people off using the railway, and they’ll lose their jobs rather than having the pain of having to serve food to the seat. Other industries don’t have sweetener payments for additional tasks to support them doing the job they’re paid to do.

Avanti needs to focus on delivering a great service, every time - rather than mourning the loss of the coach K mess room, else you bet the Treasury will pull the plug on any additional funding.
(And people say the central government are resistant to invest in railways - this is part of the reason why)

 

[43096]

The purpose is to incentivise staff to actually use the equipment and in this case carry out ticketing checks. There is a financial benefit to the rail industry by getting these tickets clipped or scanned and staff naturally want a piece of the pie.

It’s part of their job. If they are not doing it, they need managing so that they do. They should categorically not be being incentivised to do what they are already being paid to do.

 

[Philip]

On the point of coach K being a messroom and the recent removal of this; with a handful of staff onboard don't people think it is right that these staff have their own personal space to go to once they have completed their duties? Where else can they go? The TM office is a little too small to fit around 4 or 5 staff in it!

 

[6Z09]

"How dare managers try to manage without our permission"!!!

Is that what they are saying?
Or maybe they just want some consultation and for management to "take the staff with them " rather than impose things!

 

[Wolfie]

It does warrant action if it's dumped on staff with no extra pay for doing so

Welcome to the real world. If your comments sum up general attitudes on the railway all l can say is boy do some folk have a shock coming when HMT really start their saving measures.

 

[6Z09]

I stand by my words, people I've worked with for many years, and not just one person who left the union purely so they didn't have to strike. The union is only as strong as it members. That's the problem with the railway nowadays, too many "I'm alright Jack" types.

You are absolutely spot on with that!
And certain management positively recruit such types!
These people fail to accept that it's down to Union members that they have decent conditions.

 

[Wolfie]

From the RMT meeting I've just attended today, believe me, it is.

If you really want a dispute with HMG l am sure that BoZo et al will be only too happy to accommodate you. New legislation could be a very early reaction...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2021 ==

Is that what they are saying?
Or maybe they just want some consultation and for management to "take the staff with them " rather than impose things!

That is reasonable. However, it doesn't give staff or a TU a veto right.

 

[221129]

I support them for the right causes. I didn’t say otherwise. I simply said I wouldn’t strike if I didn’t support the cause and wouldn’t be bullied.

But would probably still take any benefits that came out of the strike action though.

 

[320320]

Utter rubbish. Loads of people are union members but won’t strike. For starters you don’t get paid to strike and not everyone can afford it, and you also risk dismissal.

Good luck taking that stance if you’re ever involved in industrial action.
I doubt you’d be an Aslef member for very long after refusing to strike because you’re not being paid for it or because you don’t agree with the majority of your colleagues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion it depends on the level of "change", if TOCs keep adding more and more technology to the job role, you might as well end up working for free. First it's Avantix machines, then it's QR barcode scanners, then it's an app to measure you for uniform sizes rather than sending someone round with a tape measure. Where does it stop?

It doesn't. The world progresses and we progress with it, in all of our jobs. Some new tech makes the job easier, some makes it harder. It is the way of the world and does not justify increased pay unless the actual responsibilities change markedly.

 

[320320]

I support them for the right causes. I didn’t say otherwise. I simply said I wouldn’t strike if I didn’t support the cause and wouldn’t be bullied.

I doubt you’d be bullied, you’d probably just struggle to find anybody to help you out for the rest of your time as a driver.

 

[Efini92]

We don't get that,time to see my rep!

What's clause 9,is that like the old Form 1?

I think clause 9 is they’ve put you on notice of termination. Happy to be corrected though.

Utter rubbish. Loads of people are union members but won’t strike. For starters you don’t get paid to strike and not everyone can afford it, and you also risk dismissal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2021 ==


I support them for the right causes. I didn’t say otherwise. I simply said I wouldn’t strike if I didn’t support the cause and wouldn’t be bullied.

If members don’t agree with the stance of the union they should turn up to meetings and voice their issues/stand for positions. Voting no on the ballot paper sends a message to the company that the union is weak.
Crossing a picket line is not the right thing to do. If money is an issue the unions have hardship funds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's simply the resistance to change unless they get something extra in return. It's not that long ago that one TOC wanted to change how information was conveyed to drivers by introducing tablets, arguably this is a much more efficient and up to date way of dealing with it. The union of course resisted unless the drivers had a nice one off payment to receive the information this way. It would be ridiculous anywhere else .

Yes, that is preposterous. No pay increase should ever be given for something which makes a job easier under any circumstances. You get more pay when your job gets materially harder or gains material extra responsibility (an example might be a driver starting to drive DOO, or a guard going from non revenue to revenue), or annually based on cost of living. Not just because something changes. Change is part of life and we all must accept it; it will never go away.

 

[nedchester]

Welcome to the real world. If your comments sum up general attitudes on the railway all l can say is boy do some folk have a shock coming when HMT really start their saving measures.

Indeed.

I am a big supporter of the unions having been a union rep for many years (non-railway) but the RMT (and ASLEF) have adopted a very outdated attitude when it comes to modernisation clinging onto many outdated practices that are still prevalent.

I can see HMG sorting this out once and for all. They have threatened legislation of minimum service level (even during a strike) and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a “strike to end all strikes” (think of the miners in 1984) to sort a lot of this out especially as the new structure under GBR starts.

Making an issue out of using an app to check tickets rather than simple clipping/marking them is not accepting real world changes happening outside of the railway bubble.

As for complaining about pay freezes maybe they need to look at what’s happening in the airline industries where there have been mass redundancies?

 

[BayPaul]

Threads like this make me feel very glad I'm working in an industry without a significant union presence. Somehow we still manage to deliver great customer services, have excellent terms and conditions for our staff, and a very good working relationship between management and junior staff. Most of us are very excited when a new piece of tech comes in, and we wouldn't consider refusing to work until we were paid extra for using it. Sometimes the rail industry feels like it hasn't left the 1970s

 

[Donny85]

it's just a LOT has been brewing at Avanti as can be seen

A lot of mostly RMT nonsense it seems to an outsider (union rep) like myself.

We have various apps added/swapped/removed all the time to our work phones and no branch of my union’s every batted an eyelid. I just can’t see a possible (legal) situation involving apps that doesn’t already exist in the workplace somewhere already could be an issue for dispute. I’m open to to being enlightened though in terms of these Avanti apps.

then it's an app to measure you for uniform sizes rather than sending someone round with a tape measure

I took this to be a joke. If I’m mistaken, why do staff even need an app to get their uniform size? Surely they’d be aware of their general clothing size already no? Then it’s a simple case of what needs swapping for a different size is swapped.


As for the standard premier (SP) issue of staff not knowing who’s SP and who’s first class. If the way management have implemented it is causing genuine issues, then to my mind there’s a better way to deal with it. In mixed coaches where it’s not genuinely clear who’s who after all expected checks are carried out, serve everyone as first (like someone on here said happened to them), apologies to first ticket holders and suggest they write in and complain. I must admit though, my first thought on this was surely staff could simply check and are they just upset at having to do the extra work this would have created. With one of the issues raised by the RMT being at seat service, I can see why that thought sprung to mind.

 

[Horizon22]

Because they add more and more to your duties without consultation, little by little, getting you to performs activities that are outside your (already negotiated) terms and conditions for no extra pay then you're in effect working extra, for free.

The tape measure scenario, that's putting one or more person at the uniform supplier out of a job.

Tell me how selling tickets and checking tickets are “outside your terms and conditions”? That’s part of a train manager’s role which is what those technologies are for. Once again, it’s to supplement your duties not replace them.