Acceleration on Class 803 (LUMO) vs Class 802?

[tornado]

Considering the new Lumo service has electric-only rolling stock I would imagine it is lighter than the Azumas, and thus has faster acceleration?

If that is the case, with the right pathing, could it set a new ECML speed record?

 

[DanNCL]

Considering the new Lumo service has electric-only rolling stock I would imagine it is lighter than the Azumas, and thus has faster acceleration?

If that is the case, with the right pathing, could it set a new ECML speed record?

Very unlikely as the previous record set by a 91+Mark 4 set used a lot of 140mph running, which wouldn’t be authorised on the ECML today regardless of train type.

 

[tornado]

I was thinking of the 125mph speed record. I think Azuma did one when testing but can't find it now.

There is a Sunday morning LUMO only stopping at Newcastle that makes the journey in 4 hr 17.

Realtime Trains - 1S93 1023 London Kings Cross to Newcastle

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

cut out all the engineering allowances and that's sub 4 hours including the stop.

 

[notadriver]

It’s going to be held up behind or amongst other stopping services. I doubt it will spend a lot of time at 125 mph because of this.

 

[tornado]

Sure, but I was considering the potential performance given a clear run

 

[Clarence Yard]

The acceleration rate will be governed on electric (it’s not only on diesel that this is done) so it should be exactly the same.

 

[tornado]

But with a lighter EMU surely the acceleration should be greater with an equal power applied by the engine?

 

[Roast Veg]

Are you proposing to take the passengers out too? They weigh more than the engine on an 801.

 

[tornado]

Are you proposing to take the passengers out too? They weigh more than the engine on an 801.

I think LUMO should look into that. Acceleration would definitely be improved further if modifications were made not to allow any passengers to board.

 

[43096]

But with a lighter EMU surely the acceleration should be greater with an equal power applied by the engine?

If it’s an EMU it doesn’t have an engine.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But with a lighter EMU surely the acceleration should be greater with an equal power applied by the engine?

The software regulates the acceleration - it isn’t unconstrained. It is electronically conformed to a acceleration rate/speed curve. Setting the required acceleration rate is important here, not letting the unit “do its own thing” according to the power/weight ratio.

 

[SolomonSouth]

The software regulates the acceleration - it isn’t unconstrained. It is electronically conformed to a acceleration rate/speed curve. Setting the required acceleration rate is important here, not letting the unit “do its own thing” according to the power/weight ratio.

Cheers mate for that

 

[hwl]

But with a lighter EMU surely the acceleration should be greater with an equal power applied by the engine?

elaborating a bit more from what CY said - The tractive effort available from the motors is greater than that need to meet the specified acceleration curve which the software uses hence the acceleration (on electric) will be identical irrespective of passenger loadings, hurricane force headwinds or having isolated a traction motor.

 

[tornado]

Ok, makes sense. I guess another way of putting it is that LUMO will be more environmentally friendly as it needs less effort to achieve the same acceleration.

Just trying to work out what benefits, if any, there are of all-electric rolling stock on the ECML.

 

[centro-323]

Just trying to work out what benefits, if any, there are of all-electric rolling stock on the ECML.

Marketing. An extra incentive for people to ditch the plane and use the train.

 

[Domh245]

Just trying to work out what benefits, if any, there are of all-electric rolling stock on the ECML.

Cheaper to build, and thus lease

 

[notadriver]

Also - I believe the design wasn’t meant to have a heavy GU. Not having them lessens the stress on the unit as a whole. Less rattles etc.

 

[800001]

Very unlikely as the previous record set by a 91+Mark 4 set used a lot of 140mph running, which wouldn’t be authorised on the ECML today regardless of train type.

Think fastest am azuma has done is 137.5mph, which it did as part of uts acceptance trials, and also recently when 801228 did testing for the stress being placed on dampers due to the cracks.

 

[jopsuk]

If it’s an EMU it doesn’t have an engine.

Class 801s have engines for use when shunting if there's no wires and for self-rescue if the power fails. They have less engines than class 800 or 802 however, so they can't carry out normal operation using them.

 

[Bald Rick]

They have less engines than class 800 or 802 however, so they can't carry out normal operation using them.

They can and have done, albeit for engineering works.

 

[GC class B1]

Think fastest am azuma has done is 137.5mph, which it did as part of uts acceptance trials, and also recently when 801228 did testing for the stress being placed on dampers due to the cracks.

Do you mean testing to determine the stresses that were causing the cracks not due to the cracks. Cracks don’t cause stresses, they are usually the result of stresses.

 

[800001]

Do you mean testing to determine the stresses that were causing the cracks not due to the cracks. Cracks don’t cause stresses, they are usually the result of stresses.

I think people know what I'm on about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==

They can and have done, albeit for engineering works.

Dragged by an 800/2 and not providing any power. The engine on the 801/1 purely providing lighting, and toilet facilities, and power for doors etc.

 

[DanNCL]

Think fastest am azuma has done is 137.5mph, which it did as part of uts acceptance trials, and also recently when 801228 did testing for the stress being placed on dampers due to the cracks.

A TPE 802 made it up to 148mph a while ago, with passengers onboard, in an overspeed incident. Think that's the fastest any of the 80x family of units have been recorded at.

Class 801s have engines for use when shunting if there's no wires and for self-rescue if the power fails. They have less engines than class 800 or 802 however, so they can't carry out normal operation using them.

They can and have done, albeit for engineering works.

5 car 801s are permitted to operate on diesel in normal operation when working in multiple with a 5 car 800 - this procedure is routinely used during diversions, and has also been used on Harrogate services. 9 car 801s can only operate on diesel for depot shunting and to self rescue, though it was also used to move the units to the ECML from Newton Aycliffe, the single engine not being too much of an issue on the 45mph max Bishop Auckland branch.

 

[800001]

A TPE 802 made it up to 148mph a while ago, with passengers onboard, in an overspeed incident. Think that's the fastest any of the 80x family of units have been recorded at.



5 car 801s are permitted to operate on diesel in normal operation when working in multiple with a 5 car 800 - this procedure is routinely used during diversions, and has also been used on Harrogate services. 9 car 801s can only operate on diesel for depot shunting and to self rescue, though it was also used to move the units to the ECML from Newton Aycliffe, the single engine not being too much of an issue on the 45mph max Bishop Auckland branch.

It is also often used for service recovery ln Ecml If foe what ever reason oHl has issues.
Most recent been a 9 mile stretch on the down line, north of Newark.
Each case is assessed, level if track, incline, distance etc and that them has to be authorised by senior managers.

 

[43096]

Dragged by an 800/2 and not providing any power. The engine on the 801/1 purely providing lighting, and toilet facilities, and power for doors etc.

5 car 801s are permitted to operate on diesel in normal operation when working in multiple with a 5 car 800 - this procedure is routinely used during diversions, and has also been used on Harrogate services.

You can't both be right!

 

[hexagon789]

A TPE 802 made it up to 148mph a while ago, with passengers onboard, in an overspeed incident. Think that's the fastes

The precise speed is inconclusive but at least 145 and very likely 1 or 2mph higher. The unit exceeded 125mph for 165 seconds anyway, that much can be said.

 

[TheBigD]

5 car 801s are permitted to operate on diesel in normal operation when working in multiple with a 5 car 800 - this procedure is routinely used during diversions, and has also been used on Harrogate services. 9 car 801s can only operate on diesel for depot shunting and to self rescue, though it was also used to move the units to the ECML from Newton Aycliffe, the single engine not being too much of an issue on the 45mph max Bishop Auckland branch.

Happy to be corrected but I'm pretty sure the 9 car 801s operated on diesel when there was overhead wire damage at Finsbury Park earlier in the year.

 

[800001]

Happy to be corrected but I'm pretty sure the 9 car 801s operated on diesel when there was overhead wire damage at Finsbury Park earlier in the year.

They did, as I posted above, they do operate in times of disruption, but each incident is taken on a Case by case basis.

 

[hexagon789]

Happy to be corrected but I'm pretty sure the 9 car 801s operated on diesel when there was overhead wire damage at Finsbury Park earlier in the year.

They can, but the single engine will only get a 9-car set to about 60mph on level tangent track after a fair distance. A 5-car 801 can just about make 80mph from the logs I've seen, again after a fair run up.

 

[DanNCL]

It is also often used for service recovery ln Ecml If foe what ever reason oHl has issues.
Most recent been a 9 mile stretch on the down line, north of Newark.
Each case is assessed, level if track, incline, distance etc and that them has to be authorised by senior managers.

I know I frequently criticise the 80x units but I'll give them credit where it's due, it's much rarer for the ECML to be brought to a standstill when the slightest thing goes wrong now than it was when HSTs and Mark 4 sets worked everything.

You can't both be right!

We are both right, just @800001 explained it with a lot more detail than I did, whereas I didn't clarify that the diesel engine on the 801 on such moves was only providing electric train supply, rather than traction power.