Re-opening Colne to Skipton

[A0]

In the three months since this was written, has anything new of note happened to report?

Yes. It's not part of round 3 of the Restoring Your Railways fund. Doubtless this will cause tears of anguish, wailing and the gashing of teeth from the 6 supporters and a daschund named Colin who keep peddling this scheme along with some tinfoil hat claim about the process being biased against schemes in "the North".

 

[SuspectUsual]

Yes. It's not part of round 3 of the Restoring Your Railways fund. Doubtless this will cause tears of anguish, wailing and the gashing of teeth from the 6 supporters and a daschund named Colin who keep peddling this scheme along with some tinfoil hat claim about the process being biased against schemes in "the North".

Slightly surprised it didn’t make it onto the list, given it has Tory MPs

 

[markindurham]

but the railway line is built on the "wrong" side for a lot of housing

This one line could refer to many reopening campaigns, tbh.

 

[A0]

Slightly surprised it didn’t make it onto the list, given it has Tory MPs

Perhaps you need to read up on Bald Rick's posts about the RYR process - because the colour of the sitting MP has sod all to do with it. It's more to do with how well organised the proposal is, what funding they have and whether they have local stakeholders e.g. local councils on board.

Suggesting it's all to do with the colour of the MP is silly, tinfoil hat nonsense of the kind that should be treated with the ridicule it deserves.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Suggesting it's all to do with the colour of the MP is silly, tinfoil hat nonsense of the kind that should be treated with the ridicule it deserves.

Thanks for that helpful advice

I’ll maybe mention it to my MP next time he tells his constituents that one of the benefits of having a Tory MP is an increased likelihood of securing government investment in capital projects

 

[A0]

Thanks for that helpful advice

I’ll maybe mention it to my MP next time he tells his constituents that one of the benefits of having a Tory MP is an increased likelihood of securing government investment in capital projects

Well try reading the criteria for a successful application to the RYR fund rather than making silly comments. Had you done so, you'd have understood the criteria and therefore why some schemes haven't got anywhere regardless of the colour of their MP.

 

[Bald Rick]

Slightly surprised it didn’t make it onto the list, given it has Tory MPs

It’s not on the list, because like a few others it is an ‘advanced proposal’. ‘Advanced’ in this context is that it was given money to get the initial business case done in advance of the Restoring Your Railway project being launched. However it is following the same process, and being ‘advanced’ confers no advantage in terms of likelihood of being progressed.

I will mention that it is nearly 11 years since I posted my view that this project wouldn’t happen, and offered a bet that it wouldn’t be open before 2030. The project is essentially no further forward in those 11 years, so getting from nowhere to opening in 8 years makes me think my money is safe. (If anyone had actually taken me up on it).

 

[A0]

It’s not on the list, because like a few others it is an ‘advanced proposal’. ‘Advanced’ in this context is that it was given money to get the initial business case done in advance of the Restoring Your Railway project being launched. However it is following the same process, and being ‘advanced’ confers no advantage in terms of likelihood of being progressed.

I will mention that it is nearly 11 years since I posted my view that this project wouldn’t happen, and offered a bet that it wouldn’t be open before 2030. The project is essentially no further forward in those 11 years, so getting from nowhere to opening in 8 years makes me think my money is safe. (If anyone had actually taken me up on it).

I'd forgotten it was "advanced", though forgivable considering this following the RYR 3 bids:

Valley rail link plan wins cash

WORK to develop new mainstream passenger rail link between Rawtenstall and Buckley Wells near Bury has been given £50,000 by Chancellor Rishi Sunak.

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk

"Blackburn with Darwen Council’s deputy leader and Transport of the North board member Cllr Phil Riley said: “It is surprising and and disappointing to a degree that there is no mention of the Colne to Skipton line"

Clearly showing he hasn't understood the process, which with the office he holds is surprising.

I'll pass on your bet - I think your money is very safe.

 

[bluenoxid]

I'd forgotten it was "advanced", though forgivable considering this following the RYR 3 bids:

Valley rail link plan wins cash

WORK to develop new mainstream passenger rail link between Rawtenstall and Buckley Wells near Bury has been given £50,000 by Chancellor Rishi Sunak.

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk

"Blackburn with Darwen Council’s deputy leader and Transport of the North board member Cllr Phil Riley said: “It is surprising and and disappointing to a degree that there is no mention of the Colne to Skipton line"

Clearly showing he hasn't understood the process, which with the office he holds is surprising.

I'll pass on your bet - I think your money is very safe.

The problem with quotes is that they do get truncated. My impression is that he was implying general funding rather than this specific element particular as he mentioned upgrading Preston-Blackburn in the same sentence, which is not a RYR scheme as far as I know (I will get proven wrong now)

 

[Bevan Price]

The population in the area is too low to support a rail passenger service. Indeed, the populations of Colne (about 19,000) and Nelson (about 29,000) have declined slowly since their maxima over 100 years ago. None of the towns (including Skipton, population under 15,000) retain sufficient manufacturing industries to attract large numbers of workers as potential commuters. Leeds & Bradford are too far away to attract lots of commuting from the Colne / Nelson area, and neither Colne nor Nelson have enough attractions to get lots of inward commuting.

If the line had survived the 1970 closure, it might still exist, but the cost of reopening is simply too high.

(I omit mention of Burnley, as it already has services to Bradford & Leeds, and also the recently reinstated service to Manchester via Todmorden. Its demand for services to Skipton is not expected to be enough to pay for a rail service.)

 

[Wtloild]

I'm in favour of Skipton to Colne because I see Bradford/Keighley- Skipton- Colne/Nelson/Burnley and beyond as an untapped market for rail and we need to be looking at ways to reduce the number of car journeys even on secondary routes

Burnley/Nelson/Colne are currently a dead-end both geographically & metaphorically, in desperate need of some sort of boost.
The M65 motorway ends at Colne & it's continuation to Skipton (the A56) is a single-carriageway road dotted with difficult to bypass bottlenecks (e.g. Kelbrook, Earby).
At the Yorkshire end, you're skirting the Yorkshire Dales National Park so road building/widening becomes fraught.

Re. the Rawtenstall line, the fact that marginal local Tory MP Jake Berry (until not long ago Northern Powerhouse Minister) has consistently made a lot of noise about it will have had some bearing on that one's relative success.

 

[Flying Claret]

Living in the area and a regular user of the colne train I totally agree with Bevan. I just don't see this untapped demand for services from East lancs to Skipton. Nelson/Colne would be better focused on trying to get a half hourly service through to Preston with better links at Rose Grove to the Manchester and York services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2021 ==

In addition, there possibly is a market for a half hourly Blackpool -York through copy pit. That would be enough to mop up any further transpennine traffic in the area.

 

[bluenoxid]

Skipton and Keighley are not the boom economies that some people think they are. They struggle with poor access to motorway network.

If I was going for a realistic project, then improvements to the existing transport system would be the area that I would look at including a review of frequencies and ticketing. It might turn out to be better to invest in local bus services even where the railway line exists on this corridor.

I read a comment over the weekend where someone expressed surprise that the line had closed. I was surprised that more transpennine lines had not closed. Copy Pit was pretty close at one point and how the Little North Western has pushed through various cuts is a surprise.

 

[snowball]

The M65 motorway ends at Colne & it's continuation to Skipton (the A56) is a single-carriageway road dotted with difficult to bypass bottlenecks (e.g. Kelbrook, Earby).

At one time Lancashire County Council had a proposed "villages bypass" ... that would have used the alignment of the railway.

 

[Greybeard33]

Burnley/Nelson/Colne are currently a dead-end both geographically & metaphorically, in desperate need of some sort of boost.
The M65 motorway ends at Colne & it's continuation to Skipton (the A56) is a single-carriageway road dotted with difficult to bypass bottlenecks (e.g. Kelbrook, Earby).
At the Yorkshire end, you're skirting the Yorkshire Dales National Park so road building/widening becomes fraught.

The M65 and the railway both end in Colne for the same reason. The main travel demand is down the valley to Burnley and Blackburn, not over the hills to Skipton.

 

[30907]

Skipton and Keighley are not the boom economies that some people think they are. They struggle with poor access to motorway network.

Keighley I agree; Skipton always seems to be doing well but the one major employer AFAIK is the Building Society, and remote working is likely to be part of the mix there UFN.
My impression is that SELRAP are more looking to Leeds as an alternative centre of employment, but again that's prime WFH territory - and Nelson/Colne would be at the outer limit of commuting anyway.
Excuse the non-railway TLAs

 

[D6130]

If the line had survived the 1970 closure, it might still exist, but the cost of reopening is simply too high.

It was widely reported in the late 1960s that Barbara Castle, who was then Minister of Transport and MP for Blackburn, told the Blackburn Chamber of Commerce that they could either keep the rail link to Skipton, or have a new motorway connection to the M6 at Preston (the present day M65) - but not both. Not surprisingly, for that era, they chose the latter.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was widely reported in the late 1960s that Barbara Castle, who was then Minister of Transport and MP for Blackburn, told the Blackburn Chamber of Commerce that they could either keep the rail link to Skipton, or have a new motorway connection to the M6 at Preston (the present day M65) - but not both. Not surprisingly, for that era, they chose the latter.

Has anyone any statistics on the annual usage of the Preston to Colne railway line compared with the annual usage of the M65 motorway that links those areas?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Nelson/Colne would be better focused on trying to get a half hourly service through to Preston with better links at Rose Grove to the Manchester and York services.

A while ago I had similar thoughts as a precusor to any extension.

A decent half hourly service operated by a decent train that should be a minimum of 3 cars long at all times. Ideally I would electrify the line all the way to Preston so that four car 331s or 333s could operate. Fundamentally it needs to feel like a step change!

 

[lancastrian]

The M65 and the railway both end in Colne for the same reason. The main travel demand is down the valley to Burnley and Blackburn, not over the hills to Skipton.

Really have you ever travelled between Colne & Skipton? I have many times and not only is it a real pain to get through Colne. After the M65 there is a short (about half mile section) of 2 lanes, then for the rest of the journey to meet the A59, just before Skipton it is single lane roads, with many speed restrictions, and when it is the National Limit 60 mph, the roads are that windy you can only drive at 30 mph anyway. It is busy in BOTH directions between Colne & Skipton.

We visit Skipton because my wife has family there, it would be nice to catch a train from Bolton to Skipton, via Blackburn & Colne, rather than trying to go via Leeds or Lancaster. Two useful services stop about 13 miles apart, simply because some moron in 1970 decided that route was not needed. We are really paying the price for so many short sighted decisions made after Beeching, which are restricting the use of rail travel in many places, plus if these lines, such as Colne to Skipton where still open, the choice of not using the car would still be there.

 

[Wtloild]

Really have you ever travelled between Colne & Skipton? I have many times and not only is it a real pain to get through Colne. After the M65 there is a short (about half mile section) of 2 lanes, then for the rest of the journey to meet the A59, just before Skipton it is single lane roads, with many speed restrictions, and when it is the National Limit 60 mph, the roads are that windy you can only drive at 30 mph anyway. It is busy in BOTH directions between Colne & Skipton.

I'd second this.
The Colne to Skipton road has always been very busy and very slow whenever I've used it, particularly the first couple of miles round Colne.
It's a more direct route to work for me, but I rarely use it, instead travelling much further, over the M62 single point of failure, then up the M1.

I suspect many others also use the main Manc-Leeds road/rail corridors in the absence of viable alternatives (same for south Pennine travel).

 

[bluenoxid]

Both the A56 and A6068 are busy around Colne because two roads and a motorway converge on to a single carriageway road with little done to minimise the number of junctions on to it.

Beyond Foulridge, most of the issues tend to be slow moving vehicles and the poor road between Earby and Thornton

The corridors through this area are not smooth for motorists but it will require the M65 Foulridge bypass and Harrogate northern relief road as a minimum on top of the works proposed to stabilise/divert the A59 through Kex Gill

 

[YorksLad12]

It was widely reported in the late 1960s that Barbara Castle, who was then Minister of Transport and MP for Blackburn, told the Blackburn Chamber of Commerce that they could either keep the rail link to Skipton, or have a new motorway connection to the M6 at Preston (the present day M65) - but not both. Not surprisingly, for that era, they chose the latter.

Looking at it on the map again... branching the M65 northwards at the reservoir and taking over the railway line would be a good idea, even if only as a 2-lane relief A-road.

The problem with the Colne-Skipton rail route was that it missed out Barnoldswick, which would be quite a large passenger generator. In an ideal world you'd head north from Colne, over the canal at Wanless Bridge and cross the B683 somewhere between Barnoldswick and Salterforth, then meet the former track north of Earby to reach Skipton.

To be clear: I don't expect either of those things to happen, even if the geology permitted!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Speaking of Barnoldswick I have previously wondered if it would be better relaying the line but then diverging off on a new chord with a new station near West Craven High School. It would need a slight deviation from the old line at Salterforth but judging by Google maps it looks doable!

Perhaps then later relay the 8 mile between Barnoldswick and Skipton electrify that and terminate some electric services at Barnoldswick.

One of the biggest issues I see with Skipton to Colne, is the fact that one side is electrified and the other isn't and where do you terminate them! On a seperate note I would love to see Colne all the way to Preston electrified but at the moment I think its wise to build up to that!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem with the Colne-Skipton rail route was that it missed out Barnoldswick, which would be quite a large passenger generator.

The Midland Railway built the short branch line to Barnoldswick from Earby station. It was opened on 13th February 1871 and closed on 29th September 1965. I think that a supermarket was built over the station site.

 

[YorksLad12]

The Midland Railway built the short branch line to Barnoldswick from Earby station. It was opened on 13th February 1871 and closed on 29th September 1965. I think that a supermarket was built over the station site.

Yes, I know. But that was a branch, and only from one direction. It was an odd omission given its size, but understandable if the geology didn't allow for for it at the time.

The route through Elslack seems to be built on in parts, so if you're going to have to divert make it a useful one, I say!

 

[A0]

We visit Skipton because my wife has family there, it would be nice to catch a train from Bolton to Skipton, via Blackburn & Colne, rather than trying to go via Leeds or Lancaster. Two useful services stop about 13 miles apart, simply because some moron in 1970 decided that route was not needed. We are really paying the price for so many short sighted decisions made after Beeching, which are restricting the use of rail travel in many places, plus if these lines, such as Colne to Skipton where still open, the choice of not using the car would still be there.

And how many people do you think regularly want or need to travel from Bolton to Skipton? I'm going to bet I've got more fingers.

There's a regular bus from Burnley / Colne to Skipton with a journey time that matches the train between Burnley & Colne and does the journey from Colne to Skipton in 35 mins - not much slower than a reinstated rail line would be. So why not use what is already there rather than demanding a reinstatement which would cost the public purse at least half a billion quid and would never come close to covering that in my children's lifetime let alone mine.

 

[Ianno87]

Burnley/Nelson/Colne are currently a dead-end both geographically & metaphorically, in desperate need of some sort of boost.

But could that "boost" be provided by something else at more modest cost?

For example, a passing loop on the Colne branch to permit a half-hourly service on the branch.

Oh right, that's not "sexy" enough.

 

[A0]

But could that "boost" be provided by something else at more modest cost?

For example, a passing loop on the Colne branch to permit a half-hourly service on the branch.

Oh right, that's not "sexy" enough.

And of the 3 cited - Burnley has direct train links to Leeds and Manchester with ~1 hour journey times. Hardly remote and unconnected.

With the bus being competitive with the train on journey time between Colne and Burnley, I'm not sure the branch would justify a half-hourly service.

 

[Bevan Price]

The public transport travel demand between Burnley, Colne & Skipton is such that the bus service has fairly recently been reduced from every 30 minutes to hourly - with no evening services*. The through journeys between Skipton. Burnley & Manchester (service X43) no longer exist. (Indeed, the only X43 buses north/east of Burnley are a few peak hour journeys from/to Nelson.)

* (Last bus 18:40 from Burnley, returning at 19:45 from Skipton)