Re-opening Colne to Skipton

[ChiefPlanner]

Said it before and will say it again - this forum *so* needs a 'like' button.....

Agreed - but maybe we could , in fairness , have a "don't agree" button.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Here's a list of freight tomorrow at Skipton: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7-27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

As you can see, a lot of traffic is to/from the Settle & Carlisle, which can already access Blackburn via Clitheroe. Much of the rest is Carlisle/SW Scotland to Doncaster/East Coast Ports, which Skipton-Colne doesn't help now. Traffic from East of Leeds is already better off running via the quieter Calder Valley route, so the only traffic the Skipton-Colne route can improve is Stone from Skipton itself to the WCML. It's just not enough of a market to justify additional route mileage.

If there is genuine passenger demand for trains between Blackburn and Skipton, resignalling Hellifield for reversals would seem to give better value for money overall. The new line will cost more than the resignalling, and a chord at Hellifield would require resignalling anyway.

If Man Vic and Miles Platting was such an issue wouldn't they already run via Lostock Hall, Blackburn and Copy Pit? Trains using Clitheroe, Skipton or Copy Pit would still need to use the 2-track parts of the WCML regardless of what they did after Blackburn. And 4-tracking the Winsford-Balshaw lane Jn section (or parts of it) of the WCML would have a far greater national benefit than Skipton-Colne.

How would you 4 track from Wigan to Boars Head ? Reopen the Whelley Line ?
Why not reopen the short stretch of track from Lostock Hall to Farington and increase capacity Liverpool to Lostock Hall and onwards to East Lancashire/Yorkshire ?

 

[zwk500]

How would you 4 track from Wigan to Boars Head ? Reopen the Whelley Line ?

Whether you 4-tracked by diversion or demolition, it'd be a better use of money than Skipton-Colne. For the record, I was not saying we should 4-track it, just that it would be better than Skipton-Colne.

Why not reopen the short stretch of track from Lostock Hall to Farington and increase capacity Liverpool to Lostock Hall and onwards to East Lancashire/Yorkshire ?

This stretch of track is currently open, I think? It's not used by any regular passenger services because of the proximity of Preston, but is used by freights.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Whether you 4-tracked by diversion or demolition, it'd be a better use of money than Skipton-Colne. For the record, I was not saying we should 4-track it, just that it would be better than Skipton-Colne.

This stretch of track is currently open, I think? It's not used by any regular passenger services because of the proximity of Preston, but is used by freights.

A huge amount of groundwork in a deep cutting to Boars Head would be needed.
Thereis no extant track from Lostock Hall to the Farington junction with thr Preston to Ormskirk line. What freights ?

 

[zwk500]

A huge amount of groundwork in a deep cutting to Boars Head would be needed.

Again, I did not seriouisly propose 4-tracking. I was merely pointing out that if you were spending billions of pounds on new rail infrastructure, there were other options with better returns.

Thereis no extant track from Lostock Hall to the Farington junction with thr Preston to Ormskirk line. What freights ?

Ah, I misunderstood where you meant by Farington. I was talking about the South <> East chord between Farington Jn and Lostock Hall Jn, I see you are talking about the East <> West link. Would the split at Ormskirk put people off or would the easier access to the city centre be an attraction?

 

[30907]

Why not reopen the short stretch of track from Lostock Hall to Farington and increase capacity Liverpool to Lostock Hall and onwards to East Lancashire/Yorkshire ?

Getting from the docks to the Ormskirk line would require some new infrastructure (a reversing facility at Bank Hall and reinstating the route to Aintree?) and cause considerable conflict with of Merseyrail.
Shame, because I see the logic.

Would the split at Ormskirk put people off or would the easier access to the city centre be an attraction?

Think we are discussing freight. I can't see East Lancs-Ormskirk working as a passenger route, even though it is the historic one.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Again, I did not seriouisly propose 4-tracking. I was merely pointing out that if you were spending billions of pounds on new rail infrastructure, there were other options with better returns.

Ah, I misunderstood where you meant by Farington. I was talking about the South <> East chord between Farington Jn and Lostock Hall Jn, I see you are talking about the East <> West link. Would the split at Ormskirk put people off or would the easier access to the city centre be an attraction?

Ah.
Are delays actually caused by having a two track section from Wigan to Euxton and would the few biomas trains cause a problem even if crossing the WCML
I would, tongue in cheek, suggest the through line to Liverpool for for Biomas trains to get better access to the Calder Valley and Wakefield lines to avoid the perambulation around Cheshire and Manchester.
The Farington Junc to Lostock Hall carries the Preston to Blackburn passenger trains and I assume the occasional Preston Dock to Lindsay bitumen trains. In ye olden days I don't think there were regular passenger trains except summer Yorkshire/NE to Blackpool excursions to avoid crossing the WCML on the flat. The chord was well used by local goods trains but even the Yorkshire to Fleetwood coal trains used the regular EL line to Preston then crossed, very slowly, across The WCML N of Preston station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2021 ==

Getting from the docks to the Ormskirk line would require some new infrastructure (a reversing facility at Bank Hall and reinstating the route to Aintree?) and cause considerable conflict with of Merseyrail.
Shame, because I see the logic.

Think we are discussing freight. I can't see East Lancs-Ormskirk working as a passenger route, even though it is the historic one.

Thanks. I see your points.
I think the Ormskirk to Lostock Hall section was used by L&Y/Midland passenger trains from Liverpool to Scotland and a very few commuter trains from Lpool to East Lancs - one train from Lpool split at Midge Hall with part going to Blackpool and the other half off to Blackburn etc.

 

[zwk500]

Think we are discussing freight. I can't see East Lancs-Ormskirk working as a passenger route, even though it is the historic one.

Freight will not be running on Ormskirk Line, it just won't happen. You'd have to reinstate the connection at Ormskirk, which means rebuilding the station or bridge completely.

Are delays actually caused by having a two track section from Wigan to Euxton and would the few biomas trains cause a problem even if crossing the WCML

Delays not really, but constriction of capacity yes. At the moment it's not too big a problem, but if freight was diverted away from Manchester the interaction between 60mph freight and 125mph Avanti services would potentially become an issue. 4-tracking would only really be justified if you were re-opening the intermediate station in that section.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Freight will not be running on Ormskirk Line, it just won't happen. You'd have to reinstate the connection at Ormskirk, which means rebuilding the station or bridge completely.

Delays not really, but constriction of capacity yes. At the moment it's not too big a problem, but if freight was diverted away from Manchester the interaction between 60mph freight and 125mph Avanti services would potentially become an issue. 4-tracking would only really be justified if you were re-opening the intermediate station in that section.

A biomas train would need a might run up to go up to Boars Head at 60mph ! Also do any trains do 125mph between Wigan and Preston and what speed do passengers trains top the bank from the usual standing start from Wigan ?
If a station was justified I would guess a Coppull station would be justified if replacement of the slow lines were reinstated from Boars Head to Euxton. But no doubt there are numerous better propositions for railway spending.
Would it be cheaper just to add another loco to the biomas trains to enable them to run up Miles Platting reliably and thereby save miles and clogging up Stockport ?

 

[zwk500]

A biomas train would need a might run up to go up to Boars Head at 60mph ! Also do any trains do 125mph between Wigan and Preston and what speed do passengers trains top the bank from the usual standing start from Wigan ?

Indeed, its interesting sometimes seeing actual speed tracks with gradients etc. The speed limit is 80 for the half mile just north of Wigan NW then 125 for EPS (Pendo/Voyagers), 110 for everything else. No idea what speed trains do but Pendos are pretty good off the mark. As the total length of the 2-track section is about 7.5 miles then a Biomass train would be an appreciable obstacle on the fast line, especially from a standing start.

If a station was justified I would guess a Coppull station would be justified if replacement of the slow lines were reinstated from Boars Head to Euxton. But no doubt there are numerous better propositions for railway spending.

Agreed on both points

Would it be cheaper just to add another loco to the biomas trains to enable them to run up Miles Platting reliably and thereby save miles and clogging up Stockport ?

Cheaper than a new line, although locos are expensive assets to tie up on entire journeys for just a couple of banks. There's also the issues of slow crossovers at Manchester Victoria, which would potentially stop the train having a 'proper' charge at the bank, and whether a path could be found across Chat Moss and through Ordsall Lane Jn, etc.

But we are now rather far from the progress of Colne-Skipton, sorry mods.

 

[furnessvale]

Getting from the docks to the Ormskirk line would require some new infrastructure (a reversing facility at Bank Hall and reinstating the route to Aintree?) and cause considerable conflict with of Merseyrail.
Shame, because I see the logic.

Think we are discussing freight. I can't see East Lancs-Ormskirk working as a passenger route, even though it is the historic one.

Merseyrail will not accept ANY new freight use of lines the currently have 100% control of.

 

[Meerkat]

Merseyrail will not accept ANY new freight use of lines the currently have 100% control of.

Are they allowed to do that?

 

[furnessvale]

Are they allowed to do that?

I don't know but they have said that in writing and some years ago. Somewhere deep in the files of an organisation of which I am a member there is such a non computerised letter, but I have no intention of searching for it until absolutely neccessary.

The discussion arose because of a similar response from Tyne and Wear Metro on the same topic.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't know but they have said that in writing and some years ago. Somewhere deep in the files of an organisation of which I am a member there is such a non computerised letter, but I have no intention of searching for it until absolutely neccessary.

The discussion arose because of a similar response from Tyne and Wear Metro on the same topic.

OK - I assumed it would be up to some kind of licence as the infrastructure manager.

 

[The Planner]

Are they allowed to do that?

Not without some very comprehensive evidence to prove its detrimental to them, they cannot ignore the network code.

 

[bluenoxid]

As far as I understand Colne-Skipton needs more money than this funding scheme offers to make meaningful progress.

 

[NoRoute]

As far as I understand Colne-Skipton needs more money than this funding scheme offers to make meaningful progress.

Is this:
Colne, population under 20,000, with an existing rail station and line to Burnley
Skipton, population under 20,000 with an existing rail station and line to Keighley and onto Bradford
~12 miles of new line to connect two very small towns, with only a few small villages en-route.

On the face of it, it looks like this wouldn't justify anything more than a basic bus service, not even a tram line, but a new rail line must be pie in the sky. There's towns which are larger with no rail service at all and towns and cities vastly larger without rail connections to their neighbouring towns.

Is this some sort of missing piece which connects two large towns or cities, or opens up some hefty freight flows which aren't possible? Is there some sort of strategic benefit?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Is this:
Colne, .........................existing line to Burnley
Skipton, ............existing line to Keighley and onto Bradford


Is this some sort of missing piece which connects two large towns or cities, or opens up some hefty freight flows which aren't possible? Is there some sort of strategic benefit?

That is exactly what it is. A link between East Lancs and West Yorkshire, the former with high unemployment and the latter with jobs to fill. The line is also proposed to take freight flows, to Drax I believe, away from the congested routes through Manchester.

 

[Bald Rick]

That is exactly what it is

it really isn’t! The large towns / cities are already connected By rail (and in the same time as this route would be)

very few of the freights pass through central Manchester during the day, it’s hardly a problem. Even if it was, there’s other ways they could go without spending hundreds of millions on a new railway.

 

[Glenn1969]

it really isn’t! The large towns / cities are already connected By rail (and in the same time as this route would be)

very few of the freights pass through central Manchester during the day, it’s hardly a problem. Even if it was, there’s other ways they could go without spending hundreds of millions on a new railway.

Any freight passing through Castlefield needs removing if at all possible though

 

[geordieblue]

Any freight passing through Castlefield needs removing if at all possible though

Would Skipton-Colne remove a single freight from Castlefield?

 

[HST43257]

I see no point in Skipton to Colne if freight is the main reason.

What's so bad about using Hellifield to Clitheroe with a run round at Hellfield's highly convenient loops?

 

[zwk500]

I see no point in Skipton to Colne if freight is the main reason.

What's so bad about using Hellifield to Clitheroe with a run round at Hellfield's highly convenient loops?

1. The loops aren't long enough for modern freight
2. Running round at Hellifield involves running up to Settle Jn and coming back, which takes a long time.
Both of these are fixable, of course, but for a price. And then there's the cost of the shunter to couple everything up, which can't be avoided.

EDIT: Fixing Hellifield either way (by extending loops or an avoiding curve) would still be cheaper than Skipton-Colne

 

[HST43257]

1. The loops aren't long enough for modern freight
2. Running round at Hellifield involves running up to Settle Jn and coming back, which takes a long time.
Both of these are fixable, of course, but for a price.

The price is surely lower than a full Skipton to Colne route

And then there's the cost of the shunter to couple everything up, which can't be avoided.

Are shunters needed to couple loco to freight?

 

[The Planner]

Would Skipton-Colne remove a single freight from Castlefield?

You could count them on the fingers of one hand and have some spare.

 

[The Planner]

The price is surely lower than a full Skipton to Colne route

It isn't just Colne though, people never really say it is really Skipton to Gannow Jn. You wouldn''t/can't leave Colne to Gannow as it is.

 

[Glenn1969]

I'm in favour of Skipton to Colne because I see Bradford/Keighley- Skipton- Colne/Nelson/Burnley and beyond as an untapped market for rail and we need to be looking at ways to reduce the number of car journeys even on secondary routes

 

[The Planner]

I'm in favour of Skipton to Colne because I see Bradford/Keighley- Skipton- Colne/Nelson/Burnley and beyond as an untapped market for rail and we need to be looking at ways to reduce the number of car journeys even on secondary routes

Without digging up that argument again (we have done it enough), you can currently do Bradford - Burnley in 44 minutes by train. Would Skipton-Gannow be any quicker? its still small numbers of people in the grand scheme of things vs other schemes.

 

[option]

That is exactly what it is. A link between East Lancs and West Yorkshire, the former with high unemployment and the latter with jobs to fill. The line is also proposed to take freight flows, to Drax I believe, away from the congested routes through Manchester.

How long are they assuming/expecting Drax to continue for?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But we are now rather far from the progress of Colne-Skipton

In the three months since this was written, has anything new of note happened to report?