Possible Merseyrail expansion

[507020]

Converting Merseyrail to OHLE would involve more than just those tunnels - there is a huge amount of infrastructure there that is too low for it, including a fair number of footbridges etc. Not insurmountable, but as a closed system it would be easier, if safety was a concern, to convert to bottom-contact third rail than to convert to OHLE.

But it will not be a closed system for much longer. Extension to Skem or reopening the Burscough Curves involves track sharing of some degree and I can see them adopting the standard OHLE system rather than a non-standard system. If overhead clearances are factored in while Liverpool Central is remodelled, even if the 3rd rail is retained for another 25 years, it will be a lot cheaper to convert to OHLE. Between Liverpool and Southport outside the tunnel, there is very little if anything that would prevent installation of OHLE. On other lines there are footbridges like the one at Maghull but there are footbridges of identical design on other lines that have been electrified. Not sure how difficult the Kirkdale/Walton tunnel would be and the Wirral would obviously be harder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is of course no reason why you can't have a mixed system, with OHLE on shared bits and third rail elsewhere, as Thameslink has had since it was built.

I believe the 777s can be fitted with transformers and pantographs if required.

 

[Ribbleman]

There is of course no reason why you can't have a mixed system, with OHLE on shared bits and third rail elsewhere, as Thameslink has had since it was built.

I believe the 777s can be fitted with transformers and pantographs if required.

They can be fitted with pantographs and transformers but that can only be accomplished on sets that are not fitted with batteries. Given the success of the battery trial earlier this year and the continued evolution of battery design it seems most unlikely that any 25kV overhead electrification will be necessary to allow route extensions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can be fitted with pantographs and transformers but that can only be accomplished on sets that are not fitted with batteries. Given the success of the battery trial earlier this year and the continued evolution of battery design it seems most unlikely that any 25kV overhead electrification will be necessary to allow route extensions.

I think this depends on which extensions. If you did the Wapping Tunnel project and moved any of the City Lines into Central those are already 25kV so having some with pantographs would make sense.

For short extensions (Skem*/Wigan/Burscough Bridge) batteries will be fine. I think Warrington Central and Preston, being quite long runs, might be more questionable. Ormskirk to Preston for instance is further than Ormskirk to Liverpool by some considerable margin (the Merseyrail map is not to scale! )

* Wigan actually brings into question the idea of putting some of the City Line services onto Merseyrail, because it would make the primary Liverpool-Wigan route the one via Kirkby due to the high frequency and the culture of using Merseyrail by default, e.g. to Chester.

 

[urbophile]

Skelmersdale seems a good idea though I'm not sure how practical it is. (Where would the station - or stations? - be? I don't know the place so not sure how it would work.) Third-rail to the bay at Wigan (some clever clogs will work out how to fit in with 25Kv to Southport if it ever happens, or last-mile battery).

The plans for Skelmersdale have already been publicised. There is a site for a station (the old Glenburn school campus I believe). It will be an island platform with interchange with the Wigan line – ie substituting the change at Kirkby (with a long walk along the platform) for one with a short walk across the platform. Since anyone travelling from Liverpool to Wigan would probably take a through train from Lime Street there doesn't seem much call for a through train on this route, though it would be technically possible especially with batteries.

 

[adrock1976]

Similar as posted in another thread a while ago:

1) Liverpool Central - Kirkby extended to Wigan Wallgate (every 30 minutes) and Skelmersdale (every 30 minutes), with southward extension into Wapping Tunnel/Edge Hill

2) Southport - Hunts Cross extended to Warrington Central. Possibly post NPR/HS3 when minds are finally made up as to what form the Transpennine upgrade east of Manchester takes.

3) Liverpool Central - Ormskirk extended every 30 minutes to each of Preston and Burscough Bridge/Southport. Midge Hall station reopened (trains already stop there to pick up/drop off the token for the single track section to/from Rufford). If extended beyond Burscough Bridge to Southport, New Lane and Bescar Lane to have trains calling every 60 minutes at each (maybe on request), alternating between them (it is unlikely anybody would make a journey between those two stations as it is a fair hike to the exact same main road that passes both). Also, extended south of Central towards Gateacre.

4) Bidston - Wrexham Central extended to Birkenhead North, and increased to run every 30 minutes. With some creative timetabling, trains would be timed to pass each other more or less at the same time at Shotton upstairs, with downstairs (the ex Chester & Holyhead/North Wales Coast) having the Liverpool Lime Street - Llandudno (every 60 minutes) and the Manchester Pic - Bangor (Gwynedd)/Caernarfon via Warrington Bank Quay (every 60 minutes) timetabled to more or less pass each other at Shotton, calling there 15 minutes either side from upstairs. This would provide a far more friendlier interchange with the other three directions rather than a 55/5 minute interchange time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool Central - Ormskirk extended every 30 minutes to each of Preston and Burscough Bridge/Southport. Midge Hall station reopened (trains already stop there to pick up/drop off the token for the single track section to/from Rufford). If extended beyond Burscough Bridge to Southport, New Lane and Bescar Lane to have trains calling every 60 minutes at each (maybe on request), alternating between them (it is unlikely anybody would make a journey between those two stations as it is a fair hike to the exact same main road that passes both). Also, extended south of Central towards Gateacre.

I'm less convinced about going to Preston, I'd just run to Burscough Bridge as an interchange, with an hourly single unit service from there to Preston. The line's character gets hugely more rural north of Burscough.

New Lane and Bescar Lane want closing unless housing development is going to happen around them (and if it is, they need the full service).

Add Burscough Mill Dam Lane (Burscough South), which was part of the 1970s plan but never got built, and now has housing development around it.

 

[Callumphillips]

How many extra platforms would we be putting in Liverpool Central then? How many and what services would we be running between Liverpool Central and Edge Hill? I was thinking maybe the following ideas:

• New Brighton to Wigan Central (stopping) 1tph
• West Kirby to Wigan Central (semi-fast) 1tph
• New Brighton to Liverpool John Lennon Airport (stopping) 1tph
• West Kirby to Liverpool John Lennon Airport (semi-fast) 1tph

Now I know what you're thinking, Wigan Central? I believe Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate should be merged into one station, Campaign for Better Transport say the same here.

And, Liverpool John Lennon Airport? I believe an access track to the West Coast Main Line on the Northern Line and an access track to a new station at Liverpool John Lennon Airport on the West Coast Main Line should be built.

Also, Wavertree and Sefton Park? I believe Wavertree, a closed railway station on Wellington Road, and Sefton Park, a closed railway station on Smithdown Road, should be reopened.

 

[TheSel]

New Lane and Bescar Lane want closing unless housing development is going to happen around them (and if it is, they need the full service).

I suspect OPSTA [The Ormskirk Preston and Southport Travellers' Association] might beg to differ. In particular, their manifesto:

https://opsta.chessck.co.uk/manifesto

... calls for

• A base level daily hourly service to Manchester Airport commencing 6.30am ex Southport, with a Monday to Saturday minimum half hourly service until 6.30pm, alternating between all stations (trains to Wigan/Manchester) and limited stops at Burscough, Parbold and Appley Bridge (trains to Manchester Airport), the last train leaving Southport at 11.30pm. A Sunday Manchester Airport service hourly calling all stations.
  
  [my emboldening for clarity]

And at the risk of being "yellow carded" for going off topic, who remembers the billboard advert for Tetley's (pictured below) from the 1980s, which features The Swan (public house) - now closed as a pub and in residential use - and two first generation DMUs passing at Bescar Lane station.



... and (below) how the scene looks today.

 

[Callumphillips]

I suspect OPSTA [The Ormskirk Preston and Southport Travellers' Association] might beg to differ. In particular, their manifesto:

https://opsta.chessck.co.uk/manifesto

... calls for

• A base level daily hourly service to Manchester Airport commencing 6.30am ex Southport, with a Monday to Saturday minimum half hourly service until 6.30pm, alternating between all stations (trains to Wigan/Manchester) and limited stops at Burscough, Parbold and Appley Bridge (trains to Manchester Airport), the last train leaving Southport at 11.30pm. A Sunday Manchester Airport service hourly calling all stations.
  
  [my emboldening for clarity]

And at the risk of being "yellow carded" for going off topic, who remembers the billboard advert for Tetley's (pictured below) from the 1980s, which features The Swan (public house) - now closed as a pub and in residential use - and two first generation DMUs passing at Bescar Lane station.

View attachment 104642

... and (below) how the scene looks today.

I completely agree, now it has been established that we can't pursue a car-led future, closing a station permanently is never the way to go in my opinion. I believe the Southport to Wigan line should be upgraded to cope with a reasonably frequent Merseyrail stopping service between the two towns. The Burscough curves should also be reinstated to connect the Southport to Wigan line with an upgraded Ormskirk to Preston line, providing the possibility of a reasonably frequent Merseyrail stopping service between Southport and Aintree via Burscough Bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely agree, now it has been established that we can't pursue a car-led future

In cities it has, but rurally that is by no means a given.

 

[RT4038]

In cities it has, but rurally that is by no means a given.

Not a given in wider suburbia either, I suspect.

 

[Class83]

So Are you saying neston as a terminus station ?
It's just logistically the battery units would have to turn back at shotton, the station has facilities such as a ticket office.
It's got connections to the N Wales coast services and there's a turn back at Dee Marsh if they get the points signalled.

I know the Welsh government and Liverpool major have had high level meetings, the wag stating they want the services go all the way to Wrexham central.

Probably yes, how far from Bidston (round trip) are the batteries going to last. If there were direct services to Liverpool, Neston might well justify staffing. Points north and south of the staion, so the current Northbound platform is a terminus for battery trains to/from Liverpool. The current southbound platform would then be a terminus for diesel trains to Wrexham.

Nail meets hammer. On its head!

Third-rail the Great Central as far as sensible (Neston? the international border?) and hope batteries will get you to Wrexham and back. Perhaps opportunity charging during the Wrexham turnround?

Is there any information on battery range? I'd assumed that they wouldn't get from Bidston-Wrexham, plus would there be enough units. Extending 3rd Rail isn't going to be popular. If the new trains could do 3rd rail and Overhead Lines it would be simpler to wire the extensions.

4) Bidston - Wrexham Central extended to Birkenhead North, and increased to run every 30 minutes. With some creative timetabling, trains would be timed to pass each other more or less at the same time at Shotton upstairs, with downstairs (the ex Chester & Holyhead/North Wales Coast) having the Liverpool Lime Street - Llandudno (every 60 minutes) and the Manchester Pic - Bangor (Gwynedd)/Caernarfon via Warrington Bank Quay (every 60 minutes) timetabled to more or less pass each other at Shotton, calling there 15 minutes either side from upstairs. This would provide a far more friendlier interchange with the other three directions rather than a 55/5 minute interchange time.

This is no more use than the current service to Bidston, either it runs into Liverpool or it's not worth changing anything. Why would someone in Neston or Heswall want to get a train to Birkenhead North? The railway needs to focus on getting passengers from where a reasonably large number of them are, to where a reasonably large number of them want to be.

 

[wobman]

The 777 units with 1 rack can go 20 miles in test, merseytravel are hoping for a 40mile range with the 2 racks of batteries fitted.
Battery technology is advancing a lot but there will be the need for booster points of 3rd rail at shotton and Wrexham central.

Terminating at neston isn't practical as a terminus, it would require expensive resignalling and a crossover.
Then there's facilities would need fitting and shotton is manned peak times and has n Wales coast connections.

To ensure the battery units are a success the services need to go to Liverpool and the passenger numbers will increase significantly.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

The main thing that interests me is the extension of the Merseyrail network with battery equipped 777s - which would mean more routes coming under the Merseyrail locally controlled concession - I have read that these could include Skelmesdale, Preston, Widnes/Warrington, Helsby and Wrexham - a question I have about extending services from Hunts Cross to Widnes and Warrington is how many paths would be free to do this without quadrupling the line considering the existing Northern services on this line - could you extend services to Widnes/Warrington under the existing infrastructure considering the faster acceleration of the class 777s or would some Northern services have to be cut back and replaced by Merseyrail Northern line services to Warrington - in which case that would mean the likes of Mossley Hill loosing those services unless LM and TfW (or the Northern fast service) services could be re timetabled to call at Mossley Hill was passengers advised to change at LSP for Widnes etc? Could it be done that way?

Also is there any business case for passenger services to be introduced on the Bootle Branch which has a connection with Edge Hill and the Merseyrail Northern Line - what passenger routes could run - as it is only a short route I presume a battery 777 could run easily without electrification - what routes could you see here would it be a Liverpool Lime Street-Southport service or do you even think an orbital service could be possible like the North London line or Berlins circular S-bahn line say from Liverpool South Parkway to Kirkby via the Bootle Branch - would that require new infrastructure at Edge Hill what service would be more viable one into Lime Street or an orbital route - a Lime Street - Kirkby (eventually Headbolt Lane)/Ormskirk or Southport do you think that would make a viable service and could it be pathed (how much freight traffic per day on the Bootle Branch)?

 

[D821]

I asked on another thread about how many freight trains used the Bootle branch but never got an answer. From what I've seen in other places I'd guess about 5, though this has increased recently with extra port traffic.

 

[AGH]

Doesn't extending it to Birkenhead mean you connect to both West Kirby and New Brighton services as opposed to only WK at Bidston. Better connection therefore (referencing post re Wrexham service)

 

[D821]

Doesn't extending it to Birkenhead mean you connect to both West Kirby and New Brighton services as opposed to only WK at Bidston. Better connection therefore (referencing post re Wrexham service)

Yup. Taking the Wrexham train to BHN also doubles the connections to Liverpool, too.

 

[S&CLER]

The main thing that interests me is the extension of the Merseyrail network with battery equipped 777s - which would mean more routes coming under the Merseyrail locally controlled concession - I have read that these could include Skelmesdale, Preston, Widnes/Warrington, Helsby and Wrexham - a question I have about extending services from Hunts Cross to Widnes and Warrington is how many paths would be free to do this without quadrupling the line considering the existing Northern services on this line - could you extend services to Widnes/Warrington under the existing infrastructure considering the faster acceleration of the class 777s or would some Northern services have to be cut back and replaced by Merseyrail Northern line services to Warrington - in which case that would mean the likes of Mossley Hill loosing those services unless LM and TfW (or the Northern fast service) services could be re timetabled to call at Mossley Hill was passengers advised to change at LSP for Widnes etc? Could it be done that way?

Also is there any business case for passenger services to be introduced on the Bootle Branch which has a connection with Edge Hill and the Merseyrail Northern Line - what passenger routes could run - as it is only a short route I presume a battery 777 could run easily without electrification - what routes could you see here would it be a Liverpool Lime Street-Southport service or do you even think an orbital service could be possible like the North London line or Berlins circular S-bahn line say from Liverpool South Parkway to Kirkby via the Bootle Branch - would that require new infrastructure at Edge Hill what service would be more viable one into Lime Street or an orbital route - a Lime Street - Kirkby (eventually Headbolt Lane)/Ormskirk or Southport do you think that would make a viable service and could it be pathed (how much freight traffic per day on the Bootle Branch)?

Widnes would make a better terminus for extension from Hunts Cross, as there is room for a terminal bay, which cannot be provided at Warrington without enormous expense and radical reconstruction. The CLC had 4 tracks from a point near Allerton depot to the original Halewood station. Unfortunately housebuilding along the base of the Halewood triangle has encroached on this, but there is still room for a modest extension of 4 tracks east of Hunts Cross; of course the signal box would have to be removed to allow this, and Hunts Cross would need to be "uncrossed" by putting the Merseyrail tracks on the south side of the formation, the fast lines on the north. Platforms on the fast lines would not be necessary, as connections could be made at South Parkway or Widnes; Hunts Cross, Hough Green and Halewood would be Merseyrail-only stations. Incidentally, Hunts Cross is currently having lifts installed. I think an extension to Widnes might have a better business case than an extension to Gateacre, which would perpetuate the conflict between Merseyrail and CLC route trains at HX. The Outer Loop is one of those "dead but won't lie down" ideas.

 

[6Gman]

I completely agree, now it has been established that we can't pursue a car-led future, closing a station permanently is never the way to go in my opinion. I believe the Southport to Wigan line should be upgraded to cope with a reasonably frequent Merseyrail stopping service between the two towns. The Burscough curves should also be reinstated to connect the Southport to Wigan line with an upgraded Ormskirk to Preston line, providing the possibility of a reasonably frequent Merseyrail stopping service between Southport and Aintree via Burscough Bridge.

Why would Merseyrail run a service where only 2 of the 10 stations are in Merseyside?
How much demand is there for a service between Southport and Ormskirk/ Maghull/ Aintree?
If there are to be "reasonably frequent" (every 30 minutes?) services from Southport to Preston, Wigan and Aintree, plus - presumably - a faster service to Manchester, that would be 7 trains per hour between Southport and Burscough!

 

[8A Rail]

I would extend the 3rd rail service terminating at Hunt's Cross as far as Gateacre, and the 3rd rail Kirkby service to Skelmersdale, and that's about it. These might need to be battery operated, given the aversion to 3rd rail extensions.

No Station at Gateacre (unless new build), so I assume you mean Halewood? In the meantime, the intention for years was to get to Hough Green as that is the last station within the Merseytravel boundary. However, I think Warrington Central would be the obvious destination for termination of M.R. trains.

 

[daodao]

No Station at Gateacre (unless new build), so I assume you mean Halewood? In the meantime, the intention for years was to get to Hough Green as that is the last station within the Merseytravel boundary. However, I think Warrington Central would be the obvious destination for termination of M.R. trains.

I did mean new build on the former trackbed to Gateacre, and a new line (branching off the old L&Y main line) into Skelmersdale.

Warrington is outwith Merseyside and it is not possible to operate more than a 2 tph stopping service on the CLC line unless the semi-fast service to Sheffield is completely removed from it, which cannot be done at present as there is no spare capacity on the Chat Moss line.

 

[AGH]

Gateacre has quite a big catchment area so would attract plenty of passengers. Be a lot quicker than a bus to Liverpool. Hunts Cross has the facility to be doubled from Allerton TMD and would just need to resite the brown building at the end. Relatively low cost extension. All old disused railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course it's going to cost though, HS2 is now costing over £100bn and they're still pressing ahead with that, because it's the backbone to a faster, high-speed Britain. This would cost billions itself and I wouldn't plan on implementing the whole scheme, but we need to do something more than what we are doing, especially seeing as our transport system is currently an absolute show and many people up here are perfectly content with the disastrous idea of a car-led future.

Is this your riposte to the new era of both and and cars with new generation modes of transmission that world-wide has seen all the car and van makers still deciding to stay in business producing these and also to the television advertising budgets promoting them.

Why not address a Merseyside-based vehicle plant and address the workforce of your view?

 

[D821]

Eh?

Electric vehicles are better for the environment than fossil fueled ones, but aren't immune to congestion.

They may be cheaper to run, but once the treasury starts to take a serious hit on revenue from a drop in fuel duty income, they'll be getting taxed per mile via satellites. I'll put my money on that.

 

[8A Rail]

I did mean new build on the former trackbed to Gateacre, and a new line (branching off the old L&Y main line) into Skelmersdale.

Warrington is outwith Merseyside and it is not possible to operate more than a 2 tph stopping service on the CLC line unless the semi-fast service to Sheffield is completely removed from it, which cannot be done at present as there is no spare capacity on the Chat Moss line.

I understand your point about the CLC line BUT that can be overcome with expenditure on updating the signalling on the line to increase capacity. In some ways, updating the signalling on some parts of the CLC will be required IF they intend to expand the service beyond Hunts Cross anyway especially if its to Hough Green / Widnes going by some members views. Warrington Central has got the capacity due to the two sidings in place (not including the engineering sidings) to allow extra trains and also Warrington is the better termination option for Merseytravel / Liverpool City Region.

However, I do not expect to see any expansion on the CLC line in my life time if at all as I think priorities are elsewhere, namely new stations and also the poss Skelmersdale extension as that makes more sense, as long as West Lancashire Council get on board.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2021 ==

I asked on another thread about how many freight trains used the Bootle branch but never got an answer. From what I've seen in other places I'd guess about 5, though this has increased recently with extra port traffic.

In answer to your question, on average about 8 / 10 trains in each direction in a 24 hour period (not including any L/E movements). Some days better than others. Traffic includes Biomass, Scrap, Intermodal / Container, and occasional Steel. Please see this timetable (0600 to 2200) for 'possible' trains but as you will note some are there in the 'hope' they may operate - https://www.8arail.uk/edge-lane-junction.html

 

[daodao]

I understand your point about the CLC line BUT that can be overcome with expenditure on updating the signalling on the line to increase capacity. In some ways, updating the signalling on some parts of the CLC will be required IF they intend to expand the service beyond Hunts Cross anyway especially if its to Hough Green / Widnes going by some members views. Warrington Central has got the capacity due to the two sidings in place (not including the engineering sidings) to allow extra trains and also Warrington is the better termination option for Merseytravel / Liverpool City Region.

However, I do not expect to see any expansion on the CLC line in my life time if at all as I think priorities are elsewhere, namely new stations and also the poss Skelmersdale extension as that makes more sense, as long as West Lancashire Council get on board.

Little of that is needed for a relatively simple (and IMO more useful) extension to Gateacre from Hunt's Cross.

 

[Glenn1969]

Not a given in wider suburbia either, I suspect.

Given that at least 85% of journey's are still made by car (including many journeys to stations and P&Rs) I'm not sure it's a given anywhere

24/7 door to door public transport anyone ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can someone please clarify a matter for me. There have been cases cited of Merseyrail expanding into the area of another franchise. How legally will this be taken forth and would Merseyrail have to financially compensate any other franchise should this occur?

 

[Glenn1969]

Can someone please clarify a matter for me. There have been cases cited of Merseyrail expanding into the area of another franchise. How legally will this be taken forth and would Merseyrail have to financially compensate any other franchise should this occur?

Moot given that under GBR franchises don't exist anymore anyway ?