How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

[Purple Orange]

It would then bypass Manchester Royal Infirmary and associated hospitals, which need to be directly accessible from Stretford/Urmston/Flixton now that Park Hospital, Davyhulme (Trafford DGH) has been downgraded. Similarly route 111 needs to run past these hospitals following the closure of most of Withington Hospital. There is only so much that can be done to replace bus by rail/tram services without inconveniencing folk.

Oh, a line down Oxford Road would not result in an inconvenience, and it doesn’t need to replace all the buses either, but it’s firmly in crayon territory unfortunately. There are other priority routes to focus on and we should see how the regulated bus network evolves and shapes up too. However, if Metrolink is meant to be a street-running tram network in central Manchester, street running down Oxford Road as far as the MRI can qualify as exactly that. Terminate the line as far as Whitworth Park or thread it along Hathersage Rd then head south.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How long would it take to build any Metrolink track/wiring down Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road, as this would certainly snarl things up along a main arterial route in Manchester whilst the work was in progress!

 

[Purple Orange]

How long would it take to build any Metrolink track/wiring down Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road, as this would certainly snarl things up along a main arterial route in Manchester whilst the work was in progress!

Probably quite a while, just as it took to build the airport line. Yet that doesnt mean it shouldn't be done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would then bypass Manchester Royal Infirmary and associated hospitals, which need to be directly accessible from Stretford/Urmston/Flixton now that Park Hospital, Davyhulme (Trafford DGH) has been downgraded. Similarly route 111 needs to run past these hospitals following the closure of most of Withington Hospital. There is only so much that can be done to replace bus by rail/tram services without inconveniencing folk.

OK, via Whitworth Park and Upper Brook St, then, which would give you a tram connection at Whitworth Park for those who want it.

You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2021 ==

Oh, a line down Oxford Road would not result in an inconvenience, and it doesn’t need to replace all the buses either, but it’s firmly in crayon territory unfortunately. There are other priority routes to focus on and we should see how the regulated bus network evolves and shapes up too. However, if Metrolink is meant to be a street-running tram network in central Manchester, street running down Oxford Road as far as the MRI can qualify as exactly that. Terminate the line as far as Whitworth Park or thread it along Hathersage Rd then head south.

It would be silly not to serve one of the largest passenger flows in the UK, namely at least going to Fallowfield.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

How long would it take to build any Metrolink track/wiring down Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road, as this would certainly snarl things up along a main arterial route in Manchester whilst the work was in progress!

Oxford Road is not a 'main arterial road' - that'll be Princess Road and Upper Brook Street / Birchfields Road. It is already bus/taxi/cycle only past the University and MRI. Metrolink to Fallowfield is perfectly feasible - Wilmslow Road in Rusholme isn't narrow, but just clogged up with often ill-parked vehicles. The cycle lanes also take pavement space leading to conflict with pedestrians - I prefer to cycle on the road on this section. Routing Metrolink through the 'Curry Mile' , banning vehicles apart from buses and providing proper cycle lanes could be an exciting regeneration project. Withington Village is a tricky problem - there is no sensible alternative route for traffic and it is narrow - you have to take up 'primary position' when cycling to avoid getting squashed. Demolition would be the only answer - there is nothing of architectural merit apart from a couple of old-fashioned boozers - but it would be a pity to loose more of Manchester's heritage.

 

[cle]

Oxford Road is not a 'main arterial road' - that'll be Princess Road and Upper Brook Street / Birchfields Road. It is already bus/taxi/cycle only past the University and MRI. Metrolink to Fallowfield is perfectly feasible - Wilmslow Road in Rusholme isn't narrow, but just clogged up with often ill-parked vehicles. The cycle lanes also take pavement space leading to conflict with pedestrians - I prefer to cycle on the road on this section. Routing Metrolink through the 'Curry Mile' , banning vehicles apart from buses and providing proper cycle lanes could be an exciting regeneration project. Withington Village is a tricky problem - there is no sensible alternative route for traffic and it is narrow - you have to take up 'primary position' when cycling to avoid getting squashed. Demolition would be the only answer - there is nothing of architectural merit apart from a couple of old-fashioned boozers - but it would be a pity to loose more of Manchester's heritage.

I disagree. The curry mile is incredibly narrow. And Withington too, and both are windy. A Fallowfield tram would have to take a different route for both sections, like down to the retail park. Although Wilmslow Road south of Rusholme is nice and wide so that would work.

But if you deviate once, you should keep going vs doubling back, i.e. if you go east to avoid Rusholme, you stick with it down to Fallowfield - i.e. to reach Kingsway, and then head down to Parrs Wood and join back up with the Met there. That could also include Mauldeth Road and Burnage NR closures - which could well help some of the airport line pattern issues and enable more services to the outer Manchester stops (and much more at East Didsbury, now with two tram lines) - and then Stockport I would expect.

You could head west too, but then you get into duplicating the Didsbury line eventually. I think a Uni route, skirting Rusholme and Fallowfield (but enabling more developments on new corridors) - and then straight down Kingsway to ED and beyond is best.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree. The curry mile is incredibly narrow.

it's wide enough for two buses to pass, so it's wide enough for two trams to pass. They are road vehicles and thus no wider than buses.

It isn't "winding", it gently curves.

 

[Purple Orange]

You'd have to ban cars if the tram went through Rusholme. The gridlock there would purport to the entire network.

Given the sheer scale of traffic from the city centre down through to Didsbury, perhaps only an underground line would truly work.

 

[cle]

You'd have to ban cars if the tram went through Rusholme. The gridlock there would purport to the entire network.

Given the sheer scale of traffic from the city centre down through to Didsbury, perhaps only an underground line would truly work.

Exactly. I know very well that two buses fit - I took said bus for 4 years. Doesn't mean you want to timetable a tram around street running amidst the rogue operations of countless 42s and 43s.

Nor could trams in reality replace the buses, in this very rare scenario.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd have to ban cars if the tram went through Rusholme.

Private motor traffic should absolutely be banned from Wilmslow Road through Rusholme. The antisocial behaviour issues there relating to it are massive, it's like a car cruise meet on a Saturday evening - highly threatening to pedestrians and cyclists and unsafe. This should happen even if the buses aren't replaced with a tram. Everything can pretty much be accessed from other roads.

If people still insist on driving there, knock down some of the disused buildings at one end or the other and put a multi-storey up, or consider underground parking on a similar basis.

 

[HSTEd]

You can't really build a practical transport network on the principle of one seat rides from everywhere to everywhere.

At some point people do have to change transport vehicle if we are going to build a system that is attractive enough to actually make a dent in car traffic etc.

I actually use buses on this corridor very regularly and they are so slow they are painful - I use one of the branch off routes but I would probably walk straight to Oxford Road if a tram was available - it would easily be quicker.

A road based transport mode cannot escape the vagaries of road traffic and must inevitably pad its timetable to death.

 

[Purple Orange]

Exactly. I know very well that two buses fit - I took said bus for 4 years. Doesn't mean you want to timetable a tram around street running amidst the rogue operations of countless 42s and 43s.

Nor could trams in reality replace the buses, in this very rare scenario.

Private road traffic should absolutely be banned from Rusholme. The antisocial behaviour issues there relating to it are massive, it's like a car cruise meet on a Saturday evening - highly threatening to pedestrians and cyclists and unsafe. This should happen even if the buses aren't replaced with a tram.

If people still insist on driving there, knock down some of the disused buildings at one end or the other and put a multi-storey up, or consider underground parking on a similar basis.

I think it could only be done once regulated buses are in operation, however im not entirely convinced it would be needed through to Fallowfield. I see a tram line down Oxford Road as more of a benefit of getting from the centre of the city to the university. We also need to recognise that students are increasingly likely to be living closer to the centre than they were 20 years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We also need to recognise that students are increasingly likely to be living closer to the centre than they were 20 years ago.

To an extent, but the Owens Park complex is unlikely to go away even if parts of it are redeveloped e.g. the Tower (as has been being threatened for 30 years).

Of course as with HS2 anything is good, you can always extend it later.

 

[Purple Orange]

To an extent, but the Owens Park complex is unlikely to go away even if parts of it are redeveloped e.g. the Tower (as has been being threatened for 30 years).

It wont. But i dont think the students are the market that warrents building a tram line. I think it would be the high volume of people who make the journey the other way from the centre, who go as far as the university and the hospital but not in to Rusholme.

 

[HSTEd]

We also need to recognise that students are increasingly likely to be living closer to the centre than they were 20 years ago.

The centre of gravity of the student occupation of UoM students has actually moved southwards.

They've added many thousands of additional halls rooms in fallowfield and closed most of the halls North of the Main Campus. Whitworth Park hall is also to be the next to go.

The fancy stuff in the centre looks pretty but doesn't actually house that many people, given how luxurious it is.

It wont. But i dont think the students are the market that warrents building a tram line. I think it would be the high volume of people who make the journey the other way from the centre, who go as far as the university and the hospital but not in to Rusholme.

Once you reach the MRI, you are only a mile from the largest single passenger flow in the city.

I think it's insane not to try to capture it - light rail is after all a bulk passenger mode.

Especially as an Oxford Road tramway will inevitably hamper high intensity bus operations on the corridor - those platforms aren't small, and would reduce the road to effectively single lane in each direction unless you slowed the trams down to be no faster than the buses and had them share.

 

[Purple Orange]

The centre of gravity of the student occupation of UoM students has actually moved southwards.

They've added many thousands of additional halls rooms in fallowfield and closed most of the halls North of the Main Campus. Whitworth Park hall is also to be the next to go.

The fancy stuff in the centre looks pretty but doesn't actually house that many people, given how luxurious it is.


Once you reach the MRI, you are only a mile from the largest single passenger flow in the city.

I think it's insane not to try to capture it - light rail is after all a bulk passenger mode.

In which case you'd need to have a mix of regulated buses and trams, potentially with buses diverting from Oxford Street. Thats before we get to the question of frequency and how it fits in to the city centre network. If like to see if St. Peters Sq could handle 55 tph of 10 were diverted down Oxford Street and all buses head down Portland Street.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2021 ==

The other issue to consider is that a tram could only really replace the 142 and the 143 buses which run at frequencies of once every few minutes, plus a dozen other routes that will be running every few minutes along the corridor. It probably needs 10 tph to replace the 142 and 143, but you've still got a further 45 buses each hour to contend with. I.e. for every tram you are going to have 4 buses in any 6 minute interval.

 

[Fokx]

You’re not going to get the student population of Manchester using Metrolink trams whilst they’re effectively given a free bus pass (through bursaries) or the option of £1.50 fares or an annual bus pass for around £200.

Metrolink fares are NOT cheap, particularly season tickets.

My season ticket used to cost £98 a month back in 2019, my bus pass was £179 for the year (2016).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’re not going to get the student population of Manchester using Metrolink trams whilst they’re effectively given a free bus pass (through bursaries) or the option of £1.50 fares or an annual bus pass for around £200.

Metrolink fares are NOT cheap, particularly season tickets.

My season ticket used to cost £98 a month back in 2019, my bus pass was £179 for the year (2016).

You will if the bus doesn't serve their journey any more. Or they'll switch to cycling or walking, both of which are also very good things.

 

[LOL The Irony]

You will if the bus doesn't serve their journey any more. Or they'll switch to cycling or walking, both of which are also very good things.

Forcing them to use a more expensive form of transport isn't a good thing though. Students aren't exactly a group known to be swimming in money.

 

[Purple Orange]

You will if the bus doesn't serve their journey any more. Or they'll switch to cycling or walking, both of which are also very good things.

The tram cant replace all the routes that the buses operate though. There are over 15 routes thay converge on Wilmslow Road and the tail ends still need a bus service.

 

[Greybeard33]

it's wide enough for two buses to pass, so it's wide enough for two trams to pass. They are road vehicles and thus no wider than buses.

It isn't "winding", it gently curves.

Metrolink trams are 2.65m wide, versus 2.55m for a double decker. The extra 10cm of swept path on each side of the road can be significant, especially considering that a bus can move out from the kerb to avoid pedestrians and cyclists, whenever it is not actually passing another bus.

 

[Purple Orange]

Forcing them to use a more expensive form of transport isn't a good thing though. Students aren't exactly a group known to be swimming in money.

Which is why Students are the wrong market to target here. Oxford Road passengers arent all students. There is the whole of the rest of the city that needs good access to that road and a tram line can assist with that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tram cant replace all the routes that the buses operate though. There are over 15 routes thay converge on Wilmslow Road and the tail ends still need a bus service.

I would envisage a combination of moving some routes to the other parallel corridors which are underserved, and of connecting to the tram, for instance the 42 to Stockport would become a shuttle between Stockport bus station and Parrs Wood for connection to either tram route or the train.

 

[HSTEd]

Which is why Students are the wrong market to target here. Oxford Road passengers arent all students. There is the whole of the rest of the city that needs good access to that road and a tram line can assist with that.

Attempting to force a tramway down Oxford Road without removing the bus services will wreck the service reliability - even compared to its existing low levels.

Either the tram takes over all (or almost) all traffic on the route or it is simply unworkable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2021 ==

You’re not going to get the student population of Manchester using Metrolink trams whilst they’re effectively given a free bus pass (through bursaries) or the option of £1.50 fares or an annual bus pass for around £200.

Metrolink fares are NOT cheap, particularly season tickets.

My season ticket used to cost £98 a month back in 2019, my bus pass was £179 for the year (2016).

Metrolink fares vary across the network, the fares on Oxford Road do not necessarily have to correlate with fares elsewhere.

At high traffic densities the tram service will cost the Combined Authority less to operate than the equivalent bus service will, once regulation is in place.

You could easily put the Oxford Road tramway in its own fare zone.

 

[Purple Orange]

Trouble is all of this is very very unlikely and the only way it could happen is if capacity is created by having Altrincham and East Didsbury services taken off the city centre tracks.