How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

[Bletchleyite]

Post HS2 & NPR , could an S-bahn network be implemented between Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central, Victoria and Salford Crescent that includes semi-fast services? I would assume that the semi-fasts would need to also call at all stops in the centre.

In my mind, I envisage a 3-spoke S-bahn network with branches radiating from those spokes, lets say the core lines are airport-stalybridge, Rochdale-Bolton and airport-Liverpool, with the semi-fasts dealing with Leeds-Liverpool and Airport-Scotland & Blackpool.

You could certainly do something like Thameslink if you were able to get TPE out of the way, some of it would have to be diesel but you could use 195s and 331s for homogenity. That does leave the Scotland and TfW as "annoyances" to fit in somewhere, though. (As Barrow/Windermere use 195s that could be included without too much of an issue).

 

[Purple Orange]

You could certainly do something like Thameslink if you were able to get TPE out of the way, some of it would have to be diesel but you could use 195s and 331s for homogenity. That does leave the Scotland and TfW as "annoyances" to fit in somewhere, though. (As Barrow/Windermere use 195s that could be included without too much of an issue).

I think that’s how it will have to go, with EMUs appearing as electrification takes place.

The semi-fasts being:

• 2 tph Liverpool-Salford Central-Vic-Leeds-onwards
• 2 tph Liverpool-Deansgate-Ox.Rd-Picc-Sheff-onwards
• 2 tph N.Wales-Chester-Salford Central-Vic-Leeds
• 1 tph Scotland-Sal.Cresc-Deansgate-Ox.Rd-Picc-airport
• 1 tph Cumbria-Sal.Cresc-Deansgate-Ox.Rd-Picc-airport

S-Bahn services (all stops):

• 2 tph Airport-Stalybridge
• 2 tph Airport-Stalybridge-Huddersfield-Leeds
• 4 tph Airport-Liverpool (CLC)
• 2 tph Clitheroe-Vic-Rochdale-Blackburn
• 2 tph Southport-Vic-Rochdale-Bradford
• 2 tph Blackpool-Sal.Cresc-Deansgate-Ox.Rd-Picc-airport

 

[HSTEd]

Well devil's advocate, the primary reason Oxford Road is a good interchange for the Universities as it is on the same bus route as them.

The bus route could be moved to pass by any station or combination of stations we desire.

 

[AGH]

I work in Spinningfields and Salford Central having more platforms could arguably take pressure off Deansgate and Oxford Road. Is an Eastern solution running trains through Victoria still out of the question. Surely EMT could go that way with improvements??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well devil's advocate, the primary reason Oxford Road is a good interchange for the Universities as it is on the same bus route as them.

The bus route could be moved to pass by any station or combination of stations we desire.

The vast, vast majority of people walk (and the environment for doing so is much improved over the 90s - the whole of Oxford Road now feels like a continuation of the city centre rather than a bit separate). There is little point taking a bus about 3 stops unless you're in a massive rush or it's utterly tipping it down. Thus, moving the station such that any access is further from the University than the steps mentioned earlier is a really, really bad idea - indeed I'd look to have an entrance on the other side of any rebuild as well as the current one.

Remember that universities tend to contain a substantially higher number of younger, fitter people than pretty much any other kind of establishment, plus a substantially reduced level of car ownership so a greater willingness to walk. Thus the stairs and a 10 minute walk are not a barrier.

You do get interchange to the buses for going further down (e.g. to Owens Park) of course.

 

[HSTEd]

The vast, vast majority of people walk (and the environment for doing so is much improved over the 90s - the whole of Oxford Road now feels like a continuation of the city centre rather than a bit separate). There is little point taking a bus about 3 stops unless you're in a massive rush or it's utterly tipping it down. Thus, moving the station such that any access is further from the University than the steps mentioned earlier is a really, really bad idea - indeed I'd look to have an entrance on the other side of any rebuild as well as the current one.

Or you have a bus pass, which a large fraction of the people on that corridor do as a matter of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you have a bus pass, which a large fraction of the people on that corridor do as a matter of course.

Not the ones commuting in by train, which is who we are talking about (though some might have CountyCards, a lot of commuters come from outside the TfGM area).

But in any case, human powered > public transport > cars. We should never do any kind of public transport investment that causes disadvantage to a very large pedestrian or cycle connecting flow. If you want to do anything, further improving the walking and cycling route by reducing car/bus traffic on Oxford Road and so making it a nicer environment would be the best thing. Of course a tramway would do that - you could then ban all road vehicles entirely subject to certain access provisions and essentially pedestrianise it with tram tracks and a cycle track down the middle.

But don't move Oxford Road's entrance further from where it currently is - if anything, provide one closer on the other side of the bridge. Connections to the rest of Metrolink are really not a priority for Oxford Road station*, and anyone who thinks it is does not understand the way people use that station and need to go there and see.

* Connections to the Unversity for people travelling from elsewhere on Metrolink would of course be beneficial, but I'm talking about Oxford Road *station*.

 

[Purple Orange]

Or you have a bus pass, which a large fraction of the people on that corridor do as a matter of course.

Yes but that connection with the bus route works. If trams ran down there, then that would succeed too.

 

[YorksLad12]

The vast, vast majority of people walk (and the environment for doing so is much improved over the 90s - the whole of Oxford Road now feels like a continuation of the city centre rather than a bit separate). There is little point taking a bus about 3 stops unless you're in a massive rush or it's utterly tipping it down. Thus, moving the station such that any access is further from the University than the steps mentioned earlier is a really, really bad idea - indeed I'd look to have an entrance on the other side of any rebuild as well as the current one.

It's Manchester.

But don't move Oxford Road's entrance further from where it currently is - if anything, provide one closer on the other side of the bridge. Connections to the rest of Metrolink are really not a priority for Oxford Road station*, and anyone who thinks it is does not understand the way people use that station and need to go there and see.

* Connections to the Unversity for people travelling from elsewhere on Metrolink would of course be beneficial, but I'm talking about Oxford Road *station*.

Good point. Everyone exits through the one gateline and heads north, unless they know about the stairs leading to Wakefield Street (even I'd think twice about using them). An additional entrance down to Great Marlborough Street, along the lines of Leeds Station Southern Entrance, would be useful; but as in Leeds some wally agreed to developments right up to the viaduct so there's no space for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good point. Everyone exits through the one gateline and heads north, unless they know about the stairs leading to Wakefield Street (even I'd think twice about using them).

They are used lots and not at all threatening in daytime. Commuter arrivals tip out and people heading for the uni stream out that way.

 

[HSTEd]

The staircase would be even more useful if it could have the end elevated so that it never falls below the level of Oxford Road, it would make it considerably more attractive relative to the "long way around".

I suppose a pedestrian crossing at the bottom of the staircase to allow people easy access to the southbound bus stops couldn't hurt either....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The staircase would be even more useful if it could have the end elevated so that it never falls below the level of Oxford Road, it would make it considerably more attractive relative to the "long way around".

I suppose a pedestrian crossing at the bottom of the staircase to allow people easy access to the southbound bus stops couldn't hurt either....

What would be really handy would be a walkway on the bridge, coming down (including a lift) onto an entrance built out over the Medlock. It could also have an entrance on the other side, you'd only have to get rid of the old Revolution building to put another proper entrance with TVMs, gateline etc there. Or even block New Wakefield St with it, it can be accessed from the other end instead.

 

[Purple Orange]

What I would personally prefer is a metrolink line down Oxford Road fron St. Peters Sq., with a line heading up from Albert Square to Salford Central.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I would personally prefer is a metrolink line down Oxford Road fron St. Peters Sq., with a line heading up from Albert Square to Salford Central.

I think that would help but it would not justify closing or otherwise downgrading Oxford Road station.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think that would help but it would not justify closing or otherwise downgrading Oxford Road station.

Oh no i dont think Oxford Rd shouod be downgraded or closed at all. IMHO it is crazy talk to thibk about closing any of the Central Manchester stations. Have people not learned anything from losing all those through platforms at Victoria?

 

[HSTEd]

A major issue with an Oxford Road tramway is the Curry Mile, its too narrow to put two tracks through given how congested it is, it is too long for a single track section to be practical and there are no obvious short route-arounds for it.

You either end up with a big kink in the tramway as you go around it, or you have to build a 900m tunnel or a 900m elevated section, which are either going to be too expensive or too politically problematic to build.

But that is rather off topic - but I'd certainly argue that Oxford Road is an incredibly important station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't too narrow for two tracks. You just ban all other traffic (except cycles) from it entirely during tramway operating hours. Most if not all of the businesses have rear access and there is hardly any housing in the main core.

That would also help deal with the problem of far too many young lads driving their expensive premium cars aggressively to show off, which the area really badly suffers from. At some times of day it might as well be a car cruise rather than an area of Asian/Middle Eastern restaurants.

 

[Purple Orange]

A major issue with an Oxford Road tramway is the Curry Mile, its too narrow to put two tracks through given how congested it is, it is too long for a single track section to be practical and there are no obvious short route-arounds for it.

You either end up with a big kink in the tramway as you go around it, or you have to build a 900m tunnel or a 900m elevated section, which are either going to be too expensive or too politically problematic to build.

But that is rather off topic - but I'd certainly argue that Oxford Road is an incredibly important station.

I would not think it’s off topic - light rail, heavy rail, it’s performing the same function in Manchester. That said the terminus of an Oxford Rd line doesn’t need to be going down the Curry Mile. I also see no reason in terminating it at Whitworth Park either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would not think it’s off topic - light rail, heavy rail, it’s performing the same function in Manchester. That said the terminus of an Oxford Rd line doesn’t need to be going down the Curry Mile. I also see no reason in terminating it at Whitworth Park either.

To be fair I think Europe's busiest bus corridor probably does justify a tram.

 

[daodao]

To be fair I think Europe's busiest bus corridor probably does justify a tram.

The obvious terminus for an Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road/Palatine Road tram route is West Didsbury Parade, adjacent to the existing West Didsbury tram stop on the South District line. It would effectively be a resurrection of Manchester Corporation Tramways route 41 (now bus routes 41 and 43) and would also serve the Christie Hospital.

However, TfGM are not keen on this idea because it would all have to be on street (there is virtually no space for reserved track) and in addition to the pinch point through the "Khyber Pass" (alias the Curry Mile), Withington high street is also fairly narrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, TfGM are not keen on this idea because it would all have to be on street (there is virtually no space for reserved track) and in addition to the pinch point through the "Khyber Pass" (alias the Curry Mile), Withington high street is also fairly narrow.

There are a lot of closed, boarded up businesses in Withington (it really does seem to have gone down the bog), so unlike the Curry Mile compulsory purchasing them and knocking them down in favour of a redevelopment might not be too bad a thing.

Regarding where to run it, it would need to be two routes - I would agree with you that West Didsbury is one sensible interchange, the other one being Parr's Wood.

 

[HSTEd]

However, TfGM are not keen on this idea because it would all have to be on street (there is virtually no space for reserved track) and in addition to the pinch point through the "Khyber Pass" (alias the Curry Mile), Withington high street is also fairly narrow.

Myself I would argue that given it would lift the majority of the traffic from the 41, 43, 142, 143, 147 and probably a bunch of other routes, that it wouldn't really be on street on most of Oxford Road because there would be precious little left running on the route in bus terms.

Depending on interchange arrangements a lot of the other routes could be reduced to stubs, like the 111, 85 and probably the 15.

 

[daodao]

There are a lot of closed, boarded up businesses in Withington (it really does seem to have gone down the bog)

I have hardly passed through Withington high street in recent years. My memory of it is mostly from 50-55 years ago, when I used a special school bus on route 41x (typically operated by an old late 1940s/50s Leyland/Crossley vehicle) to travel home from school.

Myself I would argue that given it would lift the majority of the traffic from the 41, 43, 142, 143, 147 and probably a bunch of other routes, that it wouldn't really be on street on most of Oxford Road because there would be precious little left running on the route in bus terms.

Depending on interchange arrangements a lot of the other routes could be reduced to stubs, like the 111, 85 and probably the 15.

Truncating bus routes so that they don't operate through to the city centre is user unfriendly and recreates the unpalatable situation that existed in the days of the first generation tramways, when passengers travelling further south had to transfer to buses at the West Didsbury and Southern Cemetery tram termini.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have hardly passed through Withington high street in recent years. My memory of it is mostly from 50-55 years ago, when I used a special school bus on route 41x (typically operated by an old late 1940s/50s Leyland/Crossley vehicle) to travel home from school.

In the late 90s it was quite decent, the bit where the posher students lived. It seems unfortunately to have declined badly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

Truncating bus routes so that they don't operate through to the city centre is user unfriendly and recreates the unpalatable situation that existed in the days of the first generation tramways, when passengers travelling further south had to transfer to buses at the West Didsbury and Southern Cemetery tram termini.

This depends. I think the "Gateshead example" was downright silly and discredited the concept (a Manchester sort-of-example would be having buses from the west tip people out at Cornbrook, say), but feeder buses to trunk rail (be that tram or heavy rail) is the model used in countries I consider to get things right e.g. Germany. The model works when the bus journey is the short bit and the rail journey the longer bit, as it would for "40 variants" but wouldn't really for some of the routes which would be better just going down parallel main roads.

 

[HSTEd]

Truncating bus routes so that they don't operate through to the city centre is user unfriendly and recreates the unpalatable situation that existed in the days of the first generation tramways, when passengers travelling further south had to transfer to buses at the West Didsbury and Southern Cemetery tram termini.

I don't think waiting two minutes for at tram that gets them to their destination in ten minutes instead of twenty is particularly "unpalatable" but that's just me.

EDIT:

Also a bus route like the 15 is clearly not for people travelling end to end on it......

It's a terrible way to get from Flixton to Piccadilly Gardens

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think waiting two minutes for at tram that gets them to their destination in ten minutes instead of twenty is particularly "unpalatable" but that's just me.

Of course you could operate buses with no cash fares sold, tap in and tap out contactless, all door boarding and wider stop spacing and you'd get running times similar to a street tram. One of the reasons trams are so desirable here is that we just can't do buses properly.

On the other hand Europe's busiest bus route must surely deserve better, though in Germany it'd absolutely have a cut and cover U-Bahn by now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...a Manchester sort-of-example would be having buses from the west tip people out at Cornbrook, say...

That effectively presently happens for passengers on trams from the Trafford Centre...

 

[daodao]

Also a bus route like the 15 is clearly not for people travelling end to end on it......

East of Stretford, it is the main bus route from the Kings Road area (Firswood) to the city centre, and 1 of only 2 remaining bus routes from Brooks's Bar to the city centre, so it would be wrong to truncate it at Whitworth Park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

East of Stretford, it is the main bus route from the Kings Road area (Firswood) to the city centre, and 1 of only 2 remaining bus routes from Brooks's Bar to the city centre, so it would be wrong to truncate it at Whitworth Park.

It would probably be better to send it up Lloyd Street/Higher Cambridge Street rather than Oxford Road.

 

[daodao]

It would probably be better to send it up Lloyd Street/Higher Cambridge Street rather than Oxford Road.

It would then bypass Manchester Royal Infirmary and associated hospitals, which need to be directly accessible from Stretford/Urmston/Flixton now that Park Hospital, Davyhulme (Trafford DGH) has been downgraded. Similarly route 111 needs to run past these hospitals following the closure of most of Withington Hospital. There is only so much that can be done to replace bus by rail/tram services without inconveniencing folk.