East Midlands Railway short formed services

[STINT47]

Even with Intercity trains being 7 cars or two units doubled lots of services are still running full and standing. EMR could run two trains an hour to Nottingham and Sheffield but then more services would be formed of single units.

EMR really need more capacity and the HSTs should not have been removed. The 810s will help but I fear that this will not be enough at the weekends.

To help manage demand is it time to introduce time restrictions on supper off peak tickets at the weekends? Restricting them in the early evening from St Pancras would help spread passenger loading.

On the flip side restrictions could be eased on weekdays as the last and first non peak trains are normally full whilst commuters have not returned in numbers to fill peak trains to capacity. The railway may have to adapt to the weekends being the new peak and change accordingly.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Even if the HSTs were still here, it wouldn't help the Liverpool to Norwich shortforms.

 

[Killingworth]

EMR couldnae be bothered (as the Scots say) to put 4-car on the 11:50 Liverpool to Norwich yesterday.

This Saturday was not significantly different to any other recent Saturday, or any day for many months. EMR didn't seemingly expect to have to continue running the Nottingham - Liverpool section and they haven't enough stock to do it. I can't lay all the fault at their door because nobody seems to be able to make a decision that would allow any operator to make forward plans. Not running a Liverpool - Sheffield at all on Sundays at present should at least provide sufficient stock for other parts of the network that can be crewed.

Walking beside the Hope Valley line today I couldn't help noticing a 4 coach full and standing Manchester - Sheffield Northern stopping service, followed by a 6 coach TPE fast train that also looked to be well loaded. This line's shortly supposed to be having 3 fast services an hour. We currently need just 2 that actually run with space for all who want to travel. Somebody needs to bite a bullet and challenge TPE to take over this route asap and reliably provide at least 4 or 5 coach trains in place of the spasmodic EMR 4, 2, 0 car service we're getting at present.

 

[Jamesrob637]

This Saturday was not significantly different to any other recent Saturday, or any day for many months. EMR didn't seemingly expect to have to continue running the Nottingham - Liverpool section and they haven't enough stock to do it. I can't lay all the fault at their door because nobody seems to be able to make a decision that would allow any operator to make forward plans. Not running a Liverpool - Sheffield at all on Sundays at present should at least provide sufficient stock for other parts of the network that can be crewed.

Walking beside the Hope Valley line today I couldn't help noticing a 4 coach full and standing Manchester - Sheffield Northern stopping service, followed by a 6 coach TPE fast train that also looked to be well loaded. This line's shortly supposed to be having 3 fast services an hour. We currently need just 2 that actually run with space for all who want to travel. Somebody needs to bite a bullet and challenge TPE to take over this route asap and reliably provide at least 4 or 5 coach trains in place of the spasmodic EMR 4, 2, 0 car service we're getting at present.

Worse still, if you're only going to put 2 coaches on, at least make sure they're not rusty and falling to pieces. Which is not what the train I was on was like. I only caught it a very short distance (the shortest on the EMR network) however that was bad enough! Feel sorry for all the punters going all the way!

 

[ChrisC]

You would think but If none where available then none where available. Your comment made things sound very different.

But why should none be available when the service from Liverpool has been cut so drastically in the mornings. The 1152 is currently only the 3rd departure from Liverpool of the day. In the reduced timetable there are only EMR trains departing Liverpool at 0742, 0952 and 1152 so where is all the stock from the missing services. We were told in June that these timetables were temporary to help prevent short forming and to provide a more relatable service without cancellations.

 

[dk1]

But why should none be available when the service from Liverpool has been cut so drastically in the mornings. The 1152 is currently only the 3rd departure from Liverpool of the day. In the reduced timetable there are only EMR trains departing Liverpool at 0742, 0952 and 1152 so where is all the stock from the missing services. We were told in June that these timetables were temporary to help prevent short forming and to provide a more relatable service without cancellations.

It’s an ongoing issue as can be seen by the daily short forms & this thread.

 

[childwallblues]

It’s an ongoing issue as can be seen by the daily short forms & this thread.

I was in Lime Street on Friday morning to catch the 1105 LMR train (8 carriages) to New Street. In Platform 6 was out of service EMR 156408. Goodness knows which previous train was short formed.

 

[dk1]

I was in Lime Street on Friday morning to catch the 1105 LMR train (8 carriages) to New Street. In Platform 6 was out of service EMR 156408. Goodness knows which previous train was short formed.

Lots of single 156s in use unfortunately. Several have been F&S on departure from Norwich so that’s going to mean no seat until Peterborough.

 

[Tomnick]

Somebody needs to bite a bullet and challenge TPE to take over this route asap and reliably provide at least 4 or 5 coach trains in place of the spasmodic EMR 4, 2, 0 car service we're getting at present.

I don't really understand why transferring the route to TPE is the default solution on here. Quite apart from the impact on the traincrew who currently work the route, and are as frustrated as everyone else, it'd mean a significant recruitment and road learning effort on TPE's part too. The recent proposal accounted for that by compensating for the loss of work with an increase in work elsewhere, so no redundancies and no unnecessary recruitment/training costs (it'd be silly to make a quarter of a depot redundant only to have to recruit and train others elsewhere to do the same work!).

It'd be far better in the long term to get to the bottom of the current problems and find a way of solving them, if the current measures aren't doing it. It should work - it's a well established operation that's generally been a reasonably solid performer over the years. If the root cause is that the allocation of rolling stock is inadequate (both in quantity and age!), then let EMR have something better to work with, e.g. 185s. If the root cause is poor management at franchise level, then deal with that. Let's not forget that TPE (and Northern) were in rather a mess themselves only a couple of years ago!

 

[Killingworth]

I don't really understand why transferring the route to TPE is the default solution on here. Quite apart from the impact on the traincrew who currently work the route, and are as frustrated as everyone else, it'd mean a significant recruitment and road learning effort on TPE's part too. The recent proposal accounted for that by compensating for the loss of work with an increase in work elsewhere, so no redundancies and no unnecessary recruitment/training costs (it'd be silly to make a quarter of a depot redundant only to have to recruit and train others elsewhere to do the same work!).

It'd be far better in the long term to get to the bottom of the current problems and find a way of solving them, if the current measures aren't doing it. It should work - it's a well established operation that's generally been a reasonably solid performer over the years. If the root cause is that the allocation of rolling stock is inadequate (both in quantity and age!), then let EMR have something better to work with, e.g. 185s. If the root cause is poor management at franchise level, then deal with that. Let's not forget that TPE (and Northern) were in rather a mess themselves only a couple of years ago!

And that's the point I was obliquely making. It needed setting out with the details added by Tomnick.

Changing franchises doesn't automatically and instantly make everything right. Frying pans and fires!

However something seriously needs doing sooner rather than later. Users are being deterred, (and not just from EMR services but the entire railway) crews are bearing the brunt and those standing behind them must be at wits end to get what stock there is out and running. This route has been problematic for too many years.

 

[nottsnurse]

To be honest, I've given up on EMR.

I live in Nottingham and work in Leicester and, under EMT, regularly used the train to get to/from work. Now I'd rather drive.

I also spend a fair bit of time traveling between Nottingham and London (average 2-3 weekends a month) and now choose to either get the train via Grantham or drive to Northampton/Milton Keynes, leave my car in the car park and get a more reliable service from those stations.

If you had been trying to turn people away from using the railways you really couldn't have come up with a better plan than EMR's shambolic performance. Sadly many people foresaw this coming when Stagecoach lost the contract.

 

[paddy1]

The MML was also bad on Sundays when operated by Stagecoach. Lots of trains formed of full and standing four or five cars only on the hourly all stops services between Sheffield/Nottingham - St Pancras. It's just that it happens even more so under Abellio, and has got that much worse. Stagecoach also ran some of the fast Sheffield-St Pancras Saturday services as five car only instead of seven. Short forms/overcrowding has been a lot standing issue on the MML. MML seems to be have been going the opposite way to other long distance main lines out of London over the years, regarding step changes in capacity/train lengths.

 

[Killingworth]

On the Sheffield-Liverpool section I have major fears that when/if TPE have to run from Cleethorpes to Liverpool many users between Sheffield and Manchester may find the Northern stopping service the most reliable option. A statement I can't imagine I'd ever have thought possible only a couple of years ago, even in jest. We have to put a lot of faith in the Manchester recasts. Roll on May 2024, by then we'll be seeing positive progress all round, all being well?

 

[Llandudno]

On the Sheffield-Liverpool section I have major fears that when/if TPE have to run from Cleethorpes to Liverpool many users between Sheffield and Manchester may find the Northern stopping service the most reliable option. A statement I can't imagine I'd ever have thought possible only a couple of years ago, even in jest. We have to put a lot of faith in the Manchester recasts. Roll on May 2024, by then we'll be seeing positive progress all round, all being well?

I think the issue will be that anyone from Sheffield travelling across Manchester to Warrington and Liverpool etc will switch from EMR to TPE making the TPE services extra busy between Sheffield and Manchester.

At least you maybe able to board an EMR train (assuming it operates!) at Sheffield, you will still in all likelihood have to stand but you shouldn’t get left stranded on the platform at Sheffield station though!

 

[paddy1]

I noticed when travelling out and back through Stockport last Sunday, with a lengthy wait for connections both ways, that there were no EMR Manchester - Sheffield services through Stockport and that some of the hourly TPE Manchester-Cleethorpes services were only formed of three car 185's, making for an even more dire journey experience for some passengers.

 

[Killingworth]

I noticed when travelling out and back through Stockport last Sunday, with a lengthy wait for connections both ways, that there were no EMR Manchester - Sheffield services through Stockport and that some of the hourly TPE Manchester-Cleethorpes services were only formed of three car 185's, making for an even more dire journey experience for some passengers.

Majority of TPE's on Sunday were 6 car and well loaded by the looks of things; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...4/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

Certainly needs 2 fast services an hour on the route. Northern's 3 and 4 coach trains were also loading very well yesterday. Hopefully EMR will soon be able to resolve their dispute and be able to run Sunday services - and may be able to find enough stock for 4 coach trains by December

 

[Llandudno]

Majority of TPE's on Sunday were 6 car and well loaded by the looks of things; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...4/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TP

Certainly needs 2 fast services an hour on the route. Northern's 3 and 4 coach trains were also loading very well yesterday. Hopefully EMR will soon be able to resolve their dispute and be able to run Sunday services - and may be able to find enough stock for 4 coach trains by December

Ever the optimist…!

 

[Bikeman78]

It’s an ongoing issue as can be seen by the daily short forms & this thread.

It would have been helpful if the ex Norwich 156s had had compatible PA put it more quickly. They've had them nearly two years and conversions have only just started. Likewise binning the 153s seems pointless. They would have been ideal for making Liverpool to Sheffield trains up to three or four cars. Other TOCs still have non compliant units attached.

 

[dk1]

It would have been helpful if the ex Norwich 156s had had compatible PA put it more quickly. They've had them nearly two years and conversions have only just started. Likewise binning the 153s seems pointless. They would have been ideal for making Liverpool to Sheffield trains up to three or four cars. Other TOCs still have non compliant units attached.

Agreed with the 153s but to be fair shouldn’t the 156s have been replaced with 170s much sooner but held back with the 196 issues at WMR?

 

[Bikeman78]

Agreed with the 153s but to be fair shouldn’t the 156s have been replaced with 170s much sooner but held back with the 196 issues at WMR?

I'm not sure about the timescales but given that the 156s needed new PA for their transfer to Northern anyway, it would have been helpful to crack on with it 18 months ago. That would have solved one of the obstacles that EMR control has to deal with every day. I think I'm right in saying that both Northern and EMR both use Train FX. What system did the Norwich units have?

 

[dk1]

I'm not sure about the timescales but given that the 156s needed new PA for their transfer to Northern anyway, it would have been helpful to crack on with it 18 months ago. That would have solved one of the obstacles that EMR control has to deal with every day. I think I'm right in saying that both Northern and EMR both use Train FX. What system did the Norwich units have?

Mate I have no idea what type it was. It wasn’t that great from what I recall & kept getting Pass Com alarms when not needed requiring shutting the desk down to clear & then other times when operated in the train toilets we got nothing at all.

 

[LowLevel]

Mate I have no idea what type it was. It wasn’t that great from what I recall & kept getting Pass Com alarms when not needed requiring shutting the desk down to clear & then other times when operated in the train toilets we got nothing at all.

It is the same system as fitted by default to class 170 bodged to fit a 156.

It is better than TrainFX in that it is generally audible and doesn't fail without telling you, but things like spurious call for aid alarms are very tedious. Luckily the worst unit for that is currently in store at Barrow Hill out the way.

 

[dk1]

It is the same system as fitted by default to class 170 bodged to fit a 156.

It is better than TrainFX in that it is generally audible and doesn't fail without telling you, but things like spurious call for aid alarms are very tedious. Luckily the worst unit for that is currently in store at Barrow Hill out the way.

I never had any issues with the PIS fitted to 170201-8/270-273. This seemed awful in comparison.

 

[LowLevel]

I never had any issues with the PIS fitted to 170201-8/270-273. This seemed awful in comparison.

It works much better on the 170s than the 156s. The main issue with it for us is that on the Regional side the guard has looked after the PIS since TrainFX came into being, the 156/9s and 170s complicated matters by only being operable by the driver.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is the same system as fitted by default to class 170 bodged to fit a 156.

It is better than TrainFX in that it is generally audible and doesn't fail without telling you, but things like spurious call for aid alarms are very tedious. Luckily the worst unit for that is currently in store at Barrow Hill out the way.

What's the plan for imported class 170s? Will they get TrainFX or will they be incompatible with the rest of the fleet for the foreseeable future?

 

[LowLevel]

What's the plan for imported class 170s? Will they get TrainFX or will they be incompatible with the rest of the fleet for the foreseeable future?

I am fairly sure that it has been said they'll eventually get TrainFX, unfortunately, presumably when they go for interior refurbishment.

 

[Skymonster]

Luckily the worst unit for that is currently in store at Barrow Hill out the way.

the very fact that there is an EMR unit stored at Barrow Hill (actually more than one if I recall) while passengers are subjected to daily short forms tells you all you need to know about EMR / Abellio‘s attitude to its customers.

Nearly as bad the repainting going on right now (360s, 150s, etc) while interior refurbishments are still months if not years away. It’s been two years and yet best I can tell NO interiors have been redone. What’s currently happening is like painting lipstick on a pig, and clearly Abellio values brand image above customer comfort.

 

[LowLevel]

the very fact that there is an EMR unit stored at Barrow Hill (actually more than one if I recall) while passengers are subjected to daily short forms tells you all you need to know about EMR / Abellio‘s attitude to its customers.

Nearly as bad the repainting going on right now (360s, 150s, etc) while interior refurbishments are still months if not years away. It’s been two years and yet best I can tell NO interiors have been redone. What’s currently happening is like painting lipstick on a pig, and clearly Abellio values brand image above customer comfort.

There are actually 2 units stored at Barrow Hill. The problem is finite depot space. Since EMT finished 15 x 153 vehicles have left the fleet with 6 remaining for another month or so.

I think 18 x 156/9 vehicles (9 units) have come in, albeit 2 x 2 car 156 are currently stored.
On top of that 31 x 170 vehicles have arrived.

That gives an increase of 34 vehicles in the Regional fleet, plus the 4 x 180s (currently 19 vehicles). Some of these are 3 car 170s which can't just be chopped and moved around like the 153s could. 1 or 2 x full length HST sets (though they were maintained at Neville Hill so were only stabling) and the 3 ish short ones are no longer stabled at Etches Park.

They all need fuelling, tanking and the bogs need emptying regularly which is a significant extra workload. More trains stable at Lincoln and Boston but they still need to be serviced regularly.

There are consequently an imbalanced number of legacy fleet and new fleet vehicles kicking about that all need servicing at different rates (the loos on 170s for example appear to be a previous generation to those now fitted to the 15x and have to be emptied more often or they go out of service).

As a result EMR's resource of depot space, siding and stabling capacity and maintenance staff struggle with the number of trains that are kicking about and that is why 2 x 156/9s are at Barrow Hill.

They shouldn't in theory be required but of course all great plans etc and the company doesn't have the 3 car 170s it planned to have to deliver capacity rewired on some services.

In the mean time it is a struggle.

I'm not defending the state of the affairs, but it is not as simple as "we have dumped these units out the way, screw the passengers".

Getting rid of the 153s will help - they're constantly breaking down and getting in the way.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Is there still a problem this week, because they can't get the units off the depot during the day, due to staff shortages / illness? Or was that only a temporary issue?

 

[Mariner16]

Is there still a problem this week, because they can't get the units off the depot during the day, due to staff shortages / illness? Or was that only a temporary issue?

That issue should be resolved now.