Current Northern services which could or should have first class

[AlastairFraser]

I would probably consider providing 1st on the Windermeres as it is money for old rope and tourists will pay for it. The Windermeres are very popular with foreign tourists, particularly Chinese/Japanese - if your flight has cost you a grand or more, 10-20 quid to upgrade is nowt.

I can't think of any other Northern routes where it would really make sense, so the problem is that that would give you a microfleet. That said, if a microfleet was deliberately procured for those services (e.g. bi-mode, battery or bionic duckweed) then putting in a short First Class section (perhaps the cab end and half the main saloon as per 321s and the likes) would be worthwhile in my book.

Catering would be unlikely to make money, it's not that long a journey so people buy before they board. Much as it's annoying when you board at Ulverston because it's nowhere near any shops!

Convert Northern's remaining 319s to 769s once the 323s from West Mids Railway turn up, heavily refurbish with mostly new interiors, wifi and charging, convert one coach to first class and use them on the Barrow/Windemere to Mcr Airport/Oxford Rd and Kirkby/ Southport to Stalybridge/Blackburn services. Some of these trains being operated by a 2/3 car 195/15x under the wires a lot of the time percent of the time is a really ignorant move and they are always rammed. Or scrap the refurbishment except wifi and chargers and convert them pronto, because the overcrowding is dangerous on some of the Barrow services.

 

[daodao]

Convert Northern's remaining 319s to 769s once the 323s from West Mids Railway turn up, heavily refurbish with mostly new interiors, wifi and charging, convert one coach to first class and use them on the Barrow/Windemere to Mcr Airport/Oxford Rd and Kirkby/ Southport to Stalybridge/Blackburn services. Some of these trains being operated by a 2/3 car 195/15x under the wires a lot of the time percent of the time is a really ignorant move and they are always rammed. Or scrap the refurbishment except wifi and chargers and convert them pronto, because the overcrowding is dangerous on some of the Barrow services.

There is NO need for first class on any Northern services. The 769s appear to be very unreliable, so creating more of them is unwise.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There is NO need for first class on any Northern services. The 769s appear to be very unreliable, so creating more of them is unwise.

About as reliable as the Meccano-made Northern bought from CAF

 

[Ianno87]

Ignoring the operations for a second, the services where Northern probably has a market for first class would be:

Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Cumbria
Maybe Liverpool to Blackpool

Chester to Leeds
Leeds to Nottingham
Leeds to Carlisle
Blackpool to York

At that point, I struggle to think of any others.

You'd effectively need a microfleet of trains to cover the above routes.

Trolley services would work and would be a profitable business if the pricing was right and were able to provide a guaranteed trolley on a designated service.
I worked as a Trolley Steward on the Hastings - London Charing Cross / Cannon Street line in the late 80s and can honestly say the trolley was well patronised on an average day we would each be taking in excess of £400. Admittedly the peak Am/Pm commuter services were our bread and butter, but were used frequently by leisure travellers also.
The journey time was approx 80 mins but you could get through a 12 car unit before Sevenoaks with ease.
It's a part of the whole train experience imo

But in ye olden days there weren't coffee purveyors on every street corner like there are today.

 

[Neptune]

About as reliable as the Meccano-made Northern bought from CAF

I suspect if you actually look at the figures the CAF fleet is far more reliable than the 769’s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ignoring the operations for a second, the services where Northern probably has a market for first class would be:

Manchester Airport to Blackpool and Cumbria
Maybe Liverpool to Blackpool

Chester to Leeds
Leeds to Nottingham
Leeds to Carlisle
Blackpool to York

At that point, I struggle to think of any others.

You'd effectively need a microfleet of trains to cover the above routes.

Of course there would be a big benefit of a micro fleet for the top two of bi modes, being routes that are basically made for such an approach.

 

[daodao]

Ignoring the operations for a second, the services where Northern probably has a market for first class would be:

Manchester Airport to Blackpool
Maybe Liverpool to Blackpool
Blackpool to York

LOL. To Blackpool? Really?

First class wastes capacity on what can be busy routes. The current modern rolling stock on the electrified routes from Blackpool is fine as it is.

 

[py_megapixel]

LOL. To Blackpool? Really?

When FTPE ran to Blackpool, they had First Class.

 

[JonathanH]

When FTPE ran to Blackpool, they had First Class.

That doesn't mean it was appropriate, and it wasn't perputuated from May 2015 when pairs of 156s replaced the 185s needed elsewhere for the loss of the 170s.

How well used was it?

It shows the issue of having a fleet used for different purposes.

Arguably two first class areas on the paired up 185s now in use elsewhere in the North is overkill which suggests that on Northern it would be too.

 

[lancededcena]

I am completely in the view of first class is wasting capacity, especially on TPE where I would consider it a semi-fast commuter service..

I was travelling from Sheffield to Manchester on a 3 car 185 and the train was rampacked full, however the first class compartment at the front of the train was completely empty.. whose idea was to bring down a 3 car 185 in such a busy route I'd have no idea, but until they (and Northern as well on their busy routes) can work out full 8 car operation just like down the South East, they will have to get rid of the completely unnecessary first class compartment on their 185s at the very least..

 

[JonathanH]

full 8 car operation just like down the South East

Remember the different carriage length - a 6-car 185 or 6-car 331 isn't that far off an 8-car 377.
6 x 24 = 144 metres
8 x 20 = 160 metres

However, I agree that on a Northern train formed of two 3-car 331s, a first class area the same size as that in a 185 in both units is not what is needed.

The difficulty I have with small areas of first class is that it doesn't give much choice of seat to the people who want to use it - it needs to be 185 size to feel worthwhile and that just isn't justified on Northern routes given the need for standard accommodation.

 

[Ianno87]

LOL. To Blackpool? Really?

First class wastes capacity on what can be busy routes. The current modern rolling stock on the electrified routes from Blackpool is fine as it is.

Yes, Busy route, propensity to book in advance (so opportunity for upsell), wanting to be kept separate from the Hoi Polloi** swamping the trains at Bolton, people prepared to pay a slight premium on a ~1 hour journey (more in the Manchester bound direction rather than Blackpool day trippers. Manchester being one of the biggest rail markets in the country).

I'm sceptical of the "wastes capacity" argument. Usually code for "well I personally wouldn't pay for it (even if others might), so I don't want my personal seating capacity reduced"

**I'm from Bolton, before anybody takes offence.

 

[D9006]

First class - none of them

Catering - the S&C in the summer, but only because it’s an opportunity to make a few quid rather than because the length of the journey necessitates it. Do the Friends still do this?

Yes the friends do it still. Majority of services covered daily between Carlisle and settle, they work from Appleby, excellent service and range available

 

[Bletchleyite]

When FTPE ran to Blackpool, they had First Class.

I think that was more because the units had it so you might as well sell it.

 

[mike57]

We have the benefit of the downgraded 1st class on our Northern service as we have the ex Scotrail 170's serving our local station. If I am off to Doncaster/Sheffield I will try and sit there as its 1.5 - 2 hours ish, if its just a local journey I dont bother.

Really there are different levels of 1st class, 'light' 1st class is a better seat, and a bit more room and 'proper' 1st class where you get at seat catering thrown in. Fare uplifts however do not always take account of this, I suppose its what the market will stand. I dont see any Northern services which would benefit from any level first class with the possible exception of Leeds - Settle - Carlisle but that would be to cater for the tourist market, and I cant see the economics of it working.

Really the majority of the Northern services are fairly local, our local service which is Scarborough - Sheffield is one of the longer at around 110 miles and 2h 45m end to end. In the summer you do get people travelling the full length, as people would rather travel without a change if they have luggage or are less mobile, you can save around 30mins to an hour by changing in York, but again not enough of a market to make it worth providing, and I suspect not many of those who do South Yorkshire - Scarborough on Northern would want to pay the extra.

What I used to find unpleasent was getting a 5 across seating unit on a longer journey but they seem to have disappeared from the longer distance services now

 

[Purple Orange]

If there is a Northern service that justifies a 1st class section, the service doesnt belong with Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

We have the benefit of the downgraded 1st class on our Northern service as we have the ex Scotrail 170's serving our local station. If I am off to Doncaster/Sheffield I will try and sit there as its 1.5 - 2 hours ish, if its just a local journey I dont bother.

Really there are different levels of 1st class, 'light' 1st class is a better seat, and a bit more room and 'proper' 1st class where you get at seat catering thrown in. Fare uplifts however do not always take account of this, I suppose its what the market will stand. I dont see any Northern services which would benefit from any level first class with the possible exception of Leeds - Settle - Carlisle but that would be to cater for the tourist market, and I cant see the economics of it working.

Really the majority of the Northern services are fairly local, our local service which is Scarborough - Sheffield is one of the longer at around 110 miles and 2h 45m end to end. In the summer you do get people travelling the full length, as people would rather travel without a change if they have luggage or are less mobile, you can save around 30mins to an hour by changing in York, but again not enough of a market to make it worth providing, and I suspect not many of those who do South Yorkshire - Scarborough on Northern would want to pay the extra.

What I used to find unpleasent was getting a 5 across seating unit on a longer journey but they seem to have disappeared from the longer distance services now

Yes, there's certainly an argument for Northern providing seating more suitable to medium distance travel on its 150's, but this wasn't done in the latest refurb programme.

 

[Philip]

If there is a Northern service that justifies a 1st class section, the service doesnt belong with Northern.

I don't understand the logic of what you have said here. Are you suggesting Northern shouldn't be allowed to run any 'premier' services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand the logic of what you have said here. Are you suggesting Northern shouldn't be allowed to run any 'premier' services?

Originally the idea of splitting TPE off was that they would run all the "premier" services, yes. Northern is however now left with Barrow/Windermere and Blackpool-York which might be arguably better as TPE services.

 

[Ianno87]

Originally the idea of splitting TPE off was that they would run all the "premier" services, yes. Northern is however now left with Barrow/Windermere and Blackpool-York which might be arguably better as TPE services.

And arguably Leeds-Nottingham.

Depends what the point of division between nominal operators is; group all similar types of services? Group traincrew/rolling stock depots with whatever services they happen to operate? Etc.

 

[mike57]

Originally the idea of splitting TPE off was that they would run all the "premier" services, yes. Northern is however now left with Barrow/Windermere and Blackpool-York which might be arguably better as TPE services.

And of course the predecesor to TPE used to run Scarborough - Blackpool services at one point, seem to remember they were routed the same way as the current York - Blackpool via Bradford and Copy Pit, only used it once, would have been around 1999. Trans Pennine services also used to run to Scarborough via Hull at one point in the early 2000s, calling at the local stations north of Bridlington. I am not sure what the thinking was running via this route.

 

[Ianno87]

And of course the predecesor to TPE used to run Scarborough - Blackpool services at one point, seem to remember they were routed the same way as the current York - Blackpool via Bradford and Copy Pit, only used it once, would have been around 1999. Trans Pennine services also used to run to Scarborough via Hull at one point in the early 2000s, calling at the local stations north of Bridlington. I am not sure what the thinking was running via this route.

They are in effect just the current Northern services at the time using the same Transpennine Class 158s as the "Mine Line" services. Victoria-Calder Valley-Leeds/Selby/York also had some from time to time.

(I'd add Blackpool-York as being a credible service for First Class)

 

[Purple Orange]

Originally the idea of splitting TPE off was that they would run all the "premier" services, yes. Northern is however now left with Barrow/Windermere and Blackpool-York which might be arguably better as TPE services.

Yes Blackpool-York could be a good fit with TPE using a 3-car 185. In fact it might be worth extending it to Scarborough and then focussing the Liverpool-Scarborough service on Newcastle instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes Blackpool-York could be a good fit with TPE using a 3-car 185. In fact it might be worth extending it to Scarborough and then focussing the Liverpool-Scarborough service on Newcastle instead.

Ooh, that's a good idea, which could contribute to my idea (in the Manchester thread, so further discussion there I guess) of reducing TPE's cross-Pennine fast services to 4tph for increased resilience and to allow a proper Manchester-Huddersfield Northern stopping service to be reinstated.

"The Sandcastle Line"?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes Blackpool-York could be a good fit with TPE using a 3-car 185. In fact it might be worth extending it to Scarborough and then focussing the Liverpool-Scarborough service on Newcastle instead.

Do the Copy Pit and/or Preston to Blackburn routes have much in the way of SP or MU differentials? If so, would there still be scope to keep time due to the units' acceleration (as is the case on Selby to Hull)? Compared to 158s, probably. Compared to 195s, I'm not so sure.

 

[Anonymous10]

We have the benefit of the downgraded 1st class on our Northern service as we have the ex Scotrail 170's serving our local station. If I am off to Doncaster/Sheffield I will try and sit there as its 1.5 - 2 hours ish, if its just a local journey I dont bother.

Really there are different levels of 1st class, 'light' 1st class is a better seat, and a bit more room and 'proper' 1st class where you get at seat catering thrown in. Fare uplifts however do not always take account of this, I suppose its what the market will stand. I dont see any Northern services which would benefit from any level first class with the possible exception of Leeds - Settle - Carlisle but that would be to cater for the tourist market, and I cant see the economics of it working.

Really the majority of the Northern services are fairly local, our local service which is Scarborough - Sheffield is one of the longer at around 110 miles and 2h 45m end to end. In the summer you do get people travelling the full length, as people would rather travel without a change if they have luggage or are less mobile, you can save around 30mins to an hour by changing in York, but again not enough of a market to make it worth providing, and I suspect not many of those who do South Yorkshire - Scarborough on Northern would want to pay the extra.

What I used to find unpleasent was getting a 5 across seating unit on a longer journey but they seem to have disappeared from the longer distance services now

when i was on holiday in Scarborough from wales this year i done Scarborough to hull a trip of approx one hour found it to be much nicer than our units and much quiter was very happy with the seats too id happily use one for 3 hours

 

[Bigman]

I still don't understand how Northern get to operate to Nottingham. So far off their patch, a bit like TPE operating Newcastle to Edinburgh.

 

[Ianno87]

I still don't understand how Northern get to operate to Nottingham. So far off their patch, a bit like TPE operating Newcastle to Edinburgh.

Because TOC names are basically arbitrary - just a collection of routes and services centred around particular depots, given a loose geographical name as a brand.

 

[Purple Orange]

Because TOC names are basically arbitrary - just a collection of routes and services centred around particular depots, given a loose geographical name as a brand.

This. Scotrail has travelled to Newcastle many many years. South Western operates primarily in the South East! Great Northern in East Anglia. East Midlands Trains go to London, Liverpool & Norwich (none of which are in the East Midlands). What has London Northwestern got to do with Birmingham? If names are a relevant issue, at least the TPE services that operate in to Scotland (both ECML & WCML) do actually operate in to cities that sit adjacent to the Pennines.

 

[Anonymous10]

Because TOC names are basically arbitrary - just a collection of routes and services centred around particular depots, given a loose geographical name as a brand.

a good example of this is tfw running services to Manchester from west wales and being the only operator on the welsh marches line which is mainly in england