Current Northern services which could or should have first class

[Philip]

I notice Northern is the only long distance operator (ie. not including Merseyrail) in the Midlands, North and Wales not to have a first class offering on any of its services, or even catering for that matter. I'm not particularly taken with the idea of first class in general, but on the other hand no first class and especially no catering probably doesn't help with the negativity and stereotyping surrounding the image of Northern as a TOC.

Are there any services currently operated by Northern of which adding first class or at least a catering service wouldn't be much of a problem? Are there any Northern services which really ought to have first class or catering on them?

A few that come to mind include the Cumbria service, the Manchester-Blackpool services and the Calder Valley services. What do you think?

 

[tommy2215]

None really

 

[AGH]

Chester to Leeds possibly via Calder Valley. Fair old trek but would need specific rolling stock. Started as 4 car 158s but has been seen with just 2 car 197s and rammed coming into Victoria. Settle & Carlisle a candidate and Leeds to Lancaster. Cumbrian coast if loco hauled as was but generally fleet and services not conducive to it.

 

[daodao]

None.

First class should be removed from all rail services other than long distance inter-city ones, mostly to/from London. It takes more space than standard class and thus reduces train capacity. IMO, it should be scrapped on most services in South East England/East Anglia, other than on fast London-Norwich and London-Weymouth services.

I was not aware that TfW provided any first class facilities, apart from on the once daily (weekdays only) WAG express from Cardiff to Holyhead generously funded at taxpayers' expense.

 

[py_megapixel]

None really

Could you elaborate on why not? We're not talking about the little commuter stoppers here: Northern do now have some proper long-distance work now (e.g. Manchester-Windermere)

 

[daodao]

Could you elaborate on why not? We're not talking about the little commuter stoppers here: Northern do now have some proper long-distance work now (e.g. Manchester-Windermere)

It is a medium distance regional semi-fast train service of well under 100 miles, with no catering.

First class is only warranted on long distance inter-city expresses, that are long enough to justify a whole carriage for first class passengers.

 

[tommy2215]

Could you elaborate on why not? We're not talking about the little commuter stoppers here: Northern do now have some proper long-distance work now (e.g. Manchester-Windermere)

How much of the 2 or 3 car trains do you propose is converted to first class? How much will extra will it cost Northern and ultimately the taxpayer to run the service? How many people outside of this forum would list not having first class as one of Northern's problems? And what would be the benefits for first class passengers that you don't get in standard class?

 

[SuspectUsual]

First class - none of them

Catering - the S&C in the summer, but only because it’s an opportunity to make a few quid rather than because the length of the journey necessitates it. Do the Friends still do this?

 

[Philip]

First class - none of them

Catering - the S&C in the summer, but only because it’s an opportunity to make a few quid rather than because the length of the journey necessitates it. Do the Friends still do this?

Surely catering at the very least should be provided on the Cumbria and Calder Valley services?

Don't forget routes like Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere have had this aspect of the service downgraded; catering when 175s worked the route under FNW/TPE, then catering and first class when 185s replaced them up until, funnily enough, Northern took over the routes and started crewing them. The trains are longer now than they were then, so lack of space is clutching at straws a bit as an excuse.

TfW have made plans for first class provision on the Marches services and before the pandemic catering was provided on both routes out of Manchester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2021 ==

Comparing TfW with Northern, before the pandemic North Wales to Manchester had a trolley service provision (and seat reservations a few years before), whereas Northern's Chester to Leeds service has never had a catering provision and only seat allocations to go with advance tickets. Why is this?

 

[JonathanH]

Surely catering at the very least should be provided on the Cumbria and Calder Valley services?

No, most people don't use it. If there was money to be made in catering it would still be on the trains. It is easier to provide facilities at or around primary stations.

Northern's Chester to Leeds service has never had a catering provision and only seat allocations to go with advance tickets. Why is this?

Northern don't offer catering or seat reservations so aren't going to start doing so on one random service just because another operator does on another route.

 

[daodao]

Surely catering at the very least should be provided on the Cumbria and Calder Valley services?

Don't forget routes like Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere have had this aspect of the service downgraded; catering when 175s worked the route under FNW/TPE, then catering and first class when 185s replaced them up until, funnily enough, Northern took over the routes and started crewing them. The trains are longer now than they were then, so lack of space is clutching at straws a bit as an excuse.

TfW have made plans for first class provision on the Marches services and before the pandemic catering was provided on both routes out of Manchester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2021 ==

Comparing TfW with Northern, before the pandemic North Wales to Manchester had a trolley service provision (and seat reservations a few years before), whereas Northern's Chester to Leeds service has never had a catering provision and only seat allocations to go with advance tickets. Why is this?

The provision of catering on trains is dying, both in the UK and other countries, particularly for shorter journeys. How many routes that were formerly part of Southern Railway pre-1948 now provide any catering whatsoever on their trains? How trains with restaurant cars now serve Denmark or Holland?

 

[skyhigh]

Are there any services currently operated by Northern of which adding first class or at least a catering service wouldn't be much of a problem?

No. 195s have less seats than the fleets they replaced to start off with. It would also cost a lot of money to add proper first class and employ catering staff. Chester to Leeds for example can often be 2x 195/0 2 cars. Would you have first class and catering in both, or would you convert only some units and then have an additional subfleet that you'd have to diagram (reducing fleet flexibility and increasing costs there too).

Are there any Northern services which really ought to have first class or catering on them?

Not that I can think of.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2021 ==

Could you elaborate on why not? We're not talking about the little commuter stoppers here: Northern do now have some proper long-distance work now (e.g. Manchester-Windermere)

Even things like Leeds-Chester do act as commuter trains a lot of the time. There's lots of local journeys from stations between Leeds and Man Vic. Very few people travel the full route.

 

[Philip]

No, most people don't use it. If there was money to be made in catering it would still be on the trains. It is easier to provide facilities at or around primary stations.


Northern don't offer catering or seat reservations so aren't going to start doing so on one random service just because another operator does on another route.

But Northern don't really provide good catering facilities at the stations either, despite it being part of their bid to secure the franchise 6 years ago, with the concept of 'Northern Connect' services and stations.

 

[skyhigh]

But Northern don't really provide good catering facilities at the stations either, despite it being part of their bid to secure the franchise 6 years ago, with the concept of 'Northern Connect' services and stations.

I'd forget whatever was in the bid 6 years ago. Things have significantly changed since then. Northern Connect is dead and buried. In any case, I'd suggest the majority of passengers would rather buy refreshments at normal prices from local shops rather than pay station prices.

 

[Philip]

I'd forget whatever was in the bid 6 years ago. Things have significantly changed since then. Northern Connect is dead and buried. In any case, I'd suggest the majority of passengers would rather buy refreshments at normal prices from local shops rather than pay station prices.

What is the way forward for Northern now? In 2015 the way forward was capacity enhancements, new services and an enhancement of both the new and existing services, including catering enhancements at the stations. The likes of Avanti, GWR, TPE, WMT are all still committed to improving the quality of the travel with catering options, new or improved first class etc; so what is the way forward for Northern and why should it be any different than the other TOCs mentioned?

I would place the Manchester-Barrow and Windermere and the Blackpool-York services in a similar category to the Manchester-South Wales and Holyhead services and the Liverpool-Birmingham services to name a few; all of these have better onboard provision than Northern's offering. Is there really no market for a small first class section between one cab end and the first set of passenger doors on the 331s and 195s? For double sets then just also have double first class provision. Overcrowding is not the problem it was before the pandemic, so I think Northern could get away with taking out a small section of standard class to make it first class.

 

[daodao]

What is the way forward for Northern now? In 2015 the way forward was capacity enhancements, new services and an enhancement of both the new and existing services, including catering enhancements at the stations. The likes of Avanti, GWR, TPE, WMT are all still committed to improving the quality of the travel with catering options, new or improved first class etc; so what is the way forward for Northern and why should it be any different than the other TOCs mentioned?

I would place the Manchester-Barrow and Windermere and the Blackpool-York services in a similar category to the Manchester-South Wales and Holyhead services and the Liverpool-Birmingham services to name a few; all of these have better onboard provision than Northern's offering. Is there really no market for a small first class section between one cab end and the first set of passenger doors on the 331s and 195s? For double sets then just also have double first class provision. Overcrowding is not the problem it was before the pandemic, so I think Northern could get away with taking out a small section of standard class to make it first class.

No. Northern has got it right now.

As I stated earlier, there is really no case for first class travel provision except on longer distance inter-city services, mainly to/from London, where there is sufficient demand to provide a whole coach for first class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would probably consider providing 1st on the Windermeres as it is money for old rope and tourists will pay for it. The Windermeres are very popular with foreign tourists, particularly Chinese/Japanese - if your flight has cost you a grand or more, 10-20 quid to upgrade is nowt.

I can't think of any other Northern routes where it would really make sense, so the problem is that that would give you a microfleet. That said, if a microfleet was deliberately procured for those services (e.g. bi-mode, battery or bionic duckweed) then putting in a short First Class section (perhaps the cab end and half the main saloon as per 321s and the likes) would be worthwhile in my book.

Catering would be unlikely to make money, it's not that long a journey so people buy before they board. Much as it's annoying when you board at Ulverston because it's nowhere near any shops!

 

[JonathanH]

Is there really no market for a small first class section between one cab end and the first set of passenger doors on the 331s and 195s?

To what end though with such a small area - is it going to be well used? Do people really want to pay extra to sit in a small compartment? It just isn't worth Northern's bother.

Overcrowding is not the problem it was before the pandemic, so I think Northern could get away with taking out a small section of standard class to make it first class.

First class on local trains seems to be one of those things that people wouldn't use themselves but think looks nice or raises the status of their service. One fundamental issue is people sitting there who are not first class passengers and don't have first class tickets - indeed having first class on local trains can increase anti-social behaviour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would place the Manchester-Barrow and Windermere and the Blackpool-York services in a similar category to the Manchester-South Wales and Holyhead services and the Liverpool-Birmingham services to name a few; all of these have better onboard provision than Northern's offering.

Blackpool-York is really one of those "string of regional services stuck together because it's operationally convenient and might occasionally be useful to someone" type services, a bit like Liverpool-Norwich. I'm not sure how many through passengers they carry - I'd think relatively few. If you live in York and want to go to the seaside by train you'll go somewhere nearer and much nicer like Scarborough. If you want to go to Scotland, you'll go up the ECML, not change at Preston. Etc. And stag dos don't tend to travel 1st.

The places served by the Barrows are mostly not that well off (even Ulverston isn't really posh, it's quite a working class town). They also aren't really tourist destinations to a significant extent other than Grange and Arnside which are very small. So I'm not convinced about it for those.

Manchester-South Wales doesn't presently have 1st (though TfW are adding it), but as it's a very long trip I can see the case. Liverpool-Brum I suspect has it for the same reason the St Albans Abbey line has it* - because the units they use already have it and so you might as well offer it as a product than declassify it. When Central Trains operated it it was Standard only.

* No fares at the moment, but that could well be because of a lot of faffing with buses and/or a few of the 319s not having 1st; once it's a solid 350 turn I guess they will be reintroduced.

 

[Djgr]

I would suggest that if you find a route that needs first class, refreshments and seat reservations it probably shouldn't be with Northern TOC anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest that if you find a route that needs first class, refreshments and seat reservations it probably shouldn't be with Northern TOC anyway.

You certainly could argue that the Windermeres (specifically) fit that description given their tourist usage, but it's hard to see what to join them to that wouldn't put yet another train through Castlefield. Are there any TPEs that terminate at Manchester Victoria from the east using 80x (for the bi-modes) where the paths might match up?

That said, I think being able to inter-work with the Barrows is too useful, and the Barrows are very much "local trains for local people" with a high turnover of passengers at Lancaster. Most passengers on those appear to be people going to Lancaster for the day, plus some connecting to London having visited family or similar.

 

[daodao]

Why this obsession with first class? Chiltern Railways which serves Buckinghamshire, one of the poshest parts of SE England, doesn't have any first class provision on its trains. The same should apply for South-Eastern, Southern, Great Northern and Thameslink, as well as LNW/WM trains and Greater Anglia trains (apart from the Lonodon-Norwich intercity service).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern Railways which serves Buckinghamshire, one of the poshest parts of SE England, doesn't have any first class provision on its trains.

Actually it does, on the Mk3 sets. Most of their units don't though.

 

[JonathanH]

Actually it does, on the Mk3 sets. Most of their units don't though.

All of their units don't. The Mk3 sets don't technically have first class either.

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/onboard-our-trains/what-business-zone

What is the Business Zone?

Business Zone provides business passengers with all the convenience needed to make the journey both comfortable and productive, and is available on our silver trains (identified by the S in the timetable).

You can upgrade to the Business Zone by paying a supplement and get large tables for working, the widest seats with more legroom than you’ll find on any train service between Birmingham or Oxford and London.

You may use the Business Zone with any standard class ticket valid for travel, on payment of a supplement. This can be purchased with your ticket (if booking at a station) or you can simply upgrade onboard.

On London to Oxford services, the supplement is £15 at all times. On London to Birmingham services the supplement is £30 at peak times, and £15 at off peak times. Peak supplements are payable for use on trains which are timed to arrive into London before 1000, or depart London between 1600 and 1900 on weekdays.

Chiltern have the luxury of what is essentially a peak only fleet that they can do this with. They aren't carrying around these coaches other than at times of peak flow (including weekends).

When the silver sets are binned it seems unlikely this provision will be continued.

 

[skyhigh]

Blackpool-York is really one of those "string of regional services stuck together because it's operationally convenient and might occasionally be useful to someone" type services, a bit like Liverpool-Norwich. I'm not sure how many through passengers they carry - I'd think relatively few.

On the contrary, in nice weather on weekends/school holidays they are some of the busiest trains - both for travel to Blackpool and also Leeds-York journeys.

What is the way forward for Northern now?

The way forward now is increasing reliability and capacity where required in a post-Covid world. It's definitely not introducing random first class and catering provision that makes a loss on other TOCs.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But Northern don't really provide good catering facilities at the stations either, despite it being part of their bid to secure the franchise 6 years ago, with the concept of 'Northern Connect' services and stations.

That franchise has ended and with it the franchise commitments.

 

[London Trains]

Definitely none - in fact it should be removed from most other TOC and only be kept on long distance services:

Avanti
EMR (only the 810s for STP to Sheffield/Nottingham)
LNER
GWR (only the IETs)

 

[py_megapixel]

Definitely none - in fact it should be removed from most other TOC and only be kept on long distance services:

Avanti
EMR (only the 810s for STP to Sheffield/Nottingham)
LNER
GWR (only the IETs)

That's a perfectly reasonable view to take, but what about TPE and XC? Not serving London doesn't make them not long distance services.

 

[London Trains]

That's a perfectly reasonable view to take, but what about TPE and XC? Not serving London doesn't make them not long distance services.

XC definitely operate routes that should have first class, but the short, overcrowded voyagers and the multitude of shorter distance commuter flows served by the same trains means it is unviable to keep the first class sections which take up 1/4 or 1/5 of the train.

Similarly TPE operate shorter trains and serve a lot of shorter distance commuter flows but first class could be justified.

 

[Neptune]

Blackpool-York is really one of those "string of regional services stuck together because it's operationally convenient and might occasionally be useful to someone" type services, a bit like Liverpool-Norwich. I'm not sure how many through passengers they carry - I'd think relatively few. If you live in York and want to go to the seaside by train you'll go somewhere nearer and much nicer like Scarborough. If you want to go to Scotland, you'll go up the ECML, not change at Preston. Etc. And stag dos don't tend to travel 1st.

I work this route a lot and there is a hell of a lot of people who travel the full or substantial length of the journey. York - Lancaster changing at Preston is a popular one. Leeds/Bradford/Halifax - Preston/Blackpool is also very popular. I’ve refuted this in threads before when it has been claimed that it isn’t used by many long distance passengers but it seems to always be forgotten when the next thread comes around mentioning YRK - BPN services.

With regards first class it should not be a consideration for Northern whatsoever. First class isn’t required and it just takes up room that is better served by everyone, not a few paltry upgrades or some chav chancers travelling couple of stops.