Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Roast Veg]

I know someone who used to work for MG and according to them they did have a reasonable number of Engineers that worked for them in the UK when they first took over the remains of the Rover Group, along with a bit of UK finishing on some of their early models, but since then the number of engineers has been reduced with more work in China, and the part assembly/finishing stopped some time ago.

There are plenty of companies which make a substancial contribution to UK Jobs far more than SIAC be they assembly or Engineering jobs, along with UK Suppliers, such as JLR/Ford/Vauxhall/BMW/Nissan and Toyota.

Fair enough - I listed several companies with less UK contribution than SAIC, you've listed those with more. I still think there's something to be said for the SAIC presence in the UK, even if it has been rationalised since the Rover buyout.

And yes I would prefer to buy a Tesla than an MG and yes I know Tesla have a Chinese plant but that's not the point I am making.

I'm not sure what the point you are making is. There's a strong anti-China rhetoric in manufacturing, fuelled I think by the rise in anti-consumerism and disposable produce, but the product that SAIC is shipping is already proving itself to be of a fair standard. The MG5 is winning an awful lot of "value for money" awards, as opposed to Tesla's "design" awards. If that is your preference, then so be it.

 

[bspahh]

Fair enough - I listed several companies with less UK contribution than SAIC, you've listed those with more. I still think there's something to be said for the SAIC presence in the UK, even if it has been rationalised since the Rover buyout.

These are the counts if I search for people on LinkedIn with these company names with United Kingdom as the location

Jaguar Land Rover 19,332
Ford               8,146
Nissan             3,395
BMW                2,942
Vauxhall           1,643
Toyota               628
SAIC                 344

Not everyone who works there will have a LinkedIn account. Some of those listed will be people who used to work there. However, I think it shows that at the moment, SAIC are a minor employer in the UK car industry.

 

[Roast Veg]

Thanks for those figures - what about the car makers I mentioned above?

 

[bspahh]

Thanks for those figures - what about the car makers I mentioned above?

Jaguar Land Rover 19,332
Ford               8,146
Nissan             3,395
BMW                2,942
Honda              1,955
Vauxhall           1,643
Tesla              1,123
Toyota             1,091
Mazda                169
Suzuki GB PLC        138
SAIC                  50

I think these figures will include people who used to work at a company, and not just current employees.

For some of these I included people with a UK location for different company names:

Toyota GB plc and Toyota Motor Corporation

Mazda UK, Mazda Motor Europe, Mazda Academy, Mazda Motors UK Ltd

SAIC Design Advanced London, SAIC Motor, SAIC General Motors.
The previous number of 324 UK employees was for www.saic.com which is a US defense company.

Its possible that the counts for some companies include people who work for dealerships and in finance, whilst those roles would have a different LinkedIn affiliation for other companies.

In pharmaceutical R&D I have noticed that LinkedIn doesn't have many people from big pharma companies in Japan as you would get for other countries. Its possible that the figures above for Japanese companies are under-reported if their UK employees don't sign up for LinkedIn.

 

[37424]

Fair enough - I listed several companies with less UK contribution than SAIC, you've listed those with more. I still think there's something to be said for the SAIC presence in the UK, even if it has been rationalised since the Rover buyout.
I'm not sure what the point you are making is. There's a strong anti-China rhetoric in manufacturing, fuelled I think by the rise in anti-consumerism and disposable produce, but the product that SAIC is shipping is already proving itself to be of a fair standard. The MG5 is winning an awful lot of "value for money" awards, as opposed to Tesla's "design" awards. If that is your preference, then so be it.

By all accounts the MG 5 isn't a bad car but it looks naff, i gather the revised model which may eventually come to the UK looks a lot better, and the bigger battery sizes should be a significant improvement to the ZS, but given the west relationship with china these days I dont think we should be so reliant on their manufacturing

 

[trebor79]

Mg will in the end follow Nissan / Toyota / Honda and build MGs here. Maybe only Brexit has stopped them so far?

They won't. A few cars were built from kits and Longbridge but that stopped 5 years ago and the site is steadily being turned into housing.

By all accounts the MG 5 isn't a bad car but it looks naff, i gather the revised model which may eventually come to the UK looks a lot better, and the bigger battery sizes should be a significant improvement to the ZS, but given the west relationship with china these days I dont think we should be so reliant on their manufacturing

Well, we are! That's a structural issue and one that would take a significant strategy shift and decades to reverse.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Chinese built BMW's (the new iX3) are now coming to Europe (inc. the UK).
Since the end of last year, most, if not all Tesla Model 3's and Model Y's being delivered to European markets, are coming from the Shanghai plant.
Then there's Polestar, the EV offshoot from Volvo (themselves owned by Chinese firm, Geely). Very high build quality, built in China.

Western car companies, including premium brands like Mercedes and BMW, have been building cars in China for years, supplying the Chinese domestic market.
Even if they hadn't had that experience on their doorstep, I don't image for one moment that the Chinese haven't been developing and honing their skills in quality car production.
A few of the Chinese manufacturers are already producing higher priced cars for their domestic market, which are said to be a decent competition to the European premium brands.
I suspect that once they can challenge those "premium brands' from below and outflank the medium sector on both quality and price, that's when Europe could see a serious threat from the Chinese motor industry.

 

[The Ham]

I'd be very surprised if that happens in the foreseeable future.

Japan and Britain have similar labour costs so on that basis it made sense for Japanese manufacturers to set up British plants producing cars predominantly for British and European markets. With Chinese labour costs being significantly lower, the economics of moving production here don't add up.

Even if changing economic conditions did make it worthwhile to move productions outside of China, a plant within the EU is more likely than Britain.

Wages are only one factor, there's a reason that there's still a fairly decent number of engineering firms with manufacturing plants in the UK.

Whilst wages are higher the cost per widget can be competitive in that the UK trends to be good at lean working and being consistent in what's made.

For instance if, due to quality control, you have to junk 1/3 of your widgets and each takes 25% more time to make then it could be more expensive than if you've got to pay 175% of the salary but only need to junk 5% of your widgets.

 

[Hadleywood]

Just created a new thread to discuss this as I think it's quite interesting.


Indeed. Governments and car manufacturers have been foolish in the way they have portrayed electric cars as a "knight in shining armour" that will solve transport issues.
They solve point-of-use emissions, and reduce carbon footprint by means of whatever proportion of the national grid's generation comes from renewables, but they are still inefficient in terms of space and still use resources to produce, especially the batteries which are probably worse than petrol engines. They also still cause a lot of noise and road building/maintainence is still disruptive. And they're still expensive, more so than petrol cars.

Society needs to accept that while EVs are definitely an improvement they are NOT the be-all and end-all of environmentally friendly travel. EVs undoubtedly have a place, outside of cities and towns where providing public transport to everyone would be impractical. But we still need to be pushing people towards public transport where possible, especially if we're also electrifying that public transport. And - even more importantly - walking and cycling.

There was an interesting interview on tv today with the owner of one of the biggest used car dealerships in the UK. He will NOT TOUCH electric cars for several reasons. Not least the circa £10,000 it costs for a new battery plus fitting. Dealer margins are too fragile to guarantee a used car which could need a £12,000 labour and parts repair quite quickly.
He will not buy in a single one. So is he a fool too? Naive? No. Electric cars will be outdated before long and too many people have fallen for it. 5 or so years ago diesel was the only way to go they told us and look how fast they changed their minds. Electric everything is unsustainable because you need gas or coal to back up the unreliable ''FREE'' energy. No way can we rely on wind and solar for millions of cars and trucks, don't be daft.
Hydrogen MAY be the answer though. May...
For now i'll carry on loving my 8+ litre V10 muscle car, my 1300cc race replica Ducati and my newly bought Honda 1970s CBX-6, fitted with a screaming 6 into 1 pipe! Beautiful!
Electric one speed vehicles are just SO boring.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"I'm a petrolhead and am going to come up with spurious arguments to justify that".

 

[reddragon]

There was an interesting interview on tv today with the owner of one of the biggest used car dealerships in the UK. He will NOT TOUCH electric cars for several reasons. Not least the circa £10,000 it costs for a new battery plus fitting. Dealer margins are too fragile to guarantee a used car which could need a £12,000 labour and parts repair quite quickly.
He will not buy in a single one. So is he a fool too? Naive? No. Electric cars will be outdated before long and too many people have fallen for it. 5 or so years ago diesel was the only way to go they told us and look how fast they changed their minds. Electric everything is unsustainable because you need gas or coal to back up the unreliable ''FREE'' energy. No way can we rely on wind and solar for millions of cars and trucks, don't be daft.
Hydrogen MAY be the answer though. May...
For now i'll carry on loving my 8+ litre V10 muscle car, my 1300cc race replica Ducati and my newly bought Honda 1970s CBX-6, fitted with a screaming 6 into 1 pipe! Beautiful!
Electric one speed vehicles are just SO boring.

That dealership only has 1 reason not to sell EVs and that is the fact that there's no follow up servicing & maintenance which is where 90% of their profits come from.

I assume that he was old and doesn't care that his business will go bust if he stick to that regime!

The future is 100% renewables like it or not and yes they are more reliable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2021 ==

"I'm a petrolhead and am going to come up with spurious arguments to justify that".

Like!

 

[Bald Rick]

There was an interesting interview on tv today with the owner of one of the biggest used car dealerships in the UK. He will NOT TOUCH electric cars for several reasons.

yep, that one dealer is right, and the hundreds of dealers that sold 33,000* pure electric cars last month are all wrong.

Meanwhile have you done your survey yet asking if car owners would prefer a Porsche Taycan or a Nissan Juke?


* more than three times as many as pure diesel cars in the month.

 

[skyhigh]

Not least the circa £10,000 it costs for a new battery plus fitting.

*bangs head against wall*

 

[XAM2175]

... 5 or so years ago diesel was the only way to go they told us and look how fast they changed their minds. ...

Because adjusting your position upon receipt of better information is how reason is supposed to work.

 

[DustyBin]

Because adjusting your position upon receipt of better information is how reason is supposed to work.

Without wanting to go OT the “diesel is the future” line peddled by Blair’s government was always a sham. I remember when they really started to become popular, at the time I worked on diesel engines for a living and there was much “amusement” among my colleagues at the claims being made. Eventually the technology has caught up, but far too late. My prediction from twenty odd years ago that small capacity turbocharged petrol engines were the future (also widely met with amusement I should add!) was in fact correct, although we’re now moving on again it seems.

 

[reddragon]

Without wanting to go OT the “diesel is the future” line peddled by Blair’s government was always a sham. I remember when they really started to become popular, at the time I worked on diesel engines for a living and there was much “amusement” among my colleagues at the claims being made. Eventually the technology has caught up, but far too late. My prediction from twenty odd years ago that small capacity turbocharged petrol engines were the future (also widely met with amusement I should add!) was in fact correct, although we’re now moving on again it seems.

We used to walk but the problem was we couldn't get anywhere, so we introduced horses.

Horses couldn't pull much so we introduced canals & wagonways.

Horses created dung heaps and were high maintenance so we moved to steam.

Steam really didn't work on roads so we went to electric cars.

Electric cars were beaten by the Ford model T that won the race and bought up & killed off electric cars.

AEC designed a diesel engine suitable for a bus for London Transport, it halved fuel costs & reduced maintenance.
British Leyland designed a diesel engine that worked in cars and halved fuel consumption.

We all forget just how inefficient petrol was in 1990 and just how polluting, smelly & full of soot their exhausts were so then TDi Diesels were a revelation!

In 2015 diesel-gate struck and the death of diesels became inevitable
It was exposed that the oil industry have bought up & shut down all development in EVs, but all that tech existed enabling EVs to become reality.

EVs win the race against Hydrogen, then outpace diesel and then petrol.

EV is king

It's called evolution!

 

[DustyBin]

We all forget just how inefficient petrol was in 1990 and just how polluting, smelly & full of soot their exhausts were so then TDi Diesels were a revelation!

We all don’t, or at least I don’t as I have two V6 petrol engined cars from 1983 and 1991 respectively. I’d rather be sat in traffic behind either one of them than a diesel from the era which really were polluting, smelly and full of soot!

I was actually referring to the early 2000s in my previous post as that’s when diesels really became popular on the back of misguided tax breaks etc.

 

[Domh245]

EV is king

For now! Having just written a whole paragraph about how automotive technology (and similar) has marched forward relentlessly, it's a bold person who asserts we've reached the end of the journey!

 

[reddragon]

For now! Having just written a whole paragraph about how automotive technology (and similar) has marched forward relentlessly, it's a bold person who asserts we've reached the end of the journey!

I am sure nuclear fusion cars will come lol

 

[gg1]

I am sure nuclear fusion cars will come lol

I believe nuclear fusion is 'around 20 years away'

 

[reddragon]

We all don’t, or at least I don’t as I have two V6 petrol engined cars from 1983 and 1991 respectively. I’d rather be sat in traffic behind either one of them than a diesel from the era which really were polluting, smelly and full of soot!

I was actually referring to the early 2000s in my previous post as that’s when diesels really became popular on the back of misguided tax breaks etc.

Some get high on drugs, some on alcohol, others on petrol vapours!

At school kids got high on glue. Each to their own I guess!

 

[ABB125]

Some get high on drugs, some on alcohol, others on petrol vapours!

At school kids got high on glue. Each to their own I guess!

Certainly some (combusted) petrol vapours are quite pleasing, generally from old cars. Unburnt petrol is rather less attractive though!

Meanwhile, whilst on the subject of tax breaks, wasn't it the case that in the early 2000s there was a lot of subsidy for LPG-powered vehicles? A lot of infrastructure (eg: filling stations) was put in place for it. Then the government realised it was losing money and stopped the tax benefits; as a result, the entire LPG system broke down and now no-one uses it (for cars at least!). I wonder what the car market would look like nowadays if LPG had developed into a more mature market?

Also, in Sweden I believe you can run cars of ethanol, which is far cheaper than petrol/diesel (at least, it was when I was last there about 10 years ago and one of the family friends we were staying with had a car powered by it). I wonder why that hasn't caught on here?

Back on topic (), I don't think that electric cars have necessarily been "oversold", but perhaps a bit too much faith has been placed in them. Though with the pace of technological development which seems to be happening, perhaps not!
For me, I think the ultimate test of when purely electric cars are properly viable will be when my dad gets one! He recently got a new hybrid as a company car to replace his previous 2012 diesel; apparently he semi-seriously considered getting a Tesla, but decided against it (not least because that would have a retail value over the £40,000(?) threshold for "luxury vehicle tax" (or whatever it's called) on top of whatever standard car taxes are payable (though I think that's zero for electric cars at the moment?); one of the main incentives for getting a hybrid (apart from the fact that he can get to work and back on electric*) was the reduced tax, so "luxury car tax" somewhat defeats that object!). We'll have to see what happens in 3 years' time when the new lease runs out...


*And because his new car runs on petrol, he can "accidentally" fill up a petrol can at the same time as the car and have it paid for by work. If, by some mysterious circumstances, the petrol from that can finds its way into the tank of one of his classic cars (or "mid-life crisis" Porsche Boxster ), that would be a bit of a coincidence...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile, whilst on the subject of tax breaks, wasn't it the case that in the early 2000s there was a lot of subsidy for LPG-powered vehicles? A lot of infrastructure (eg: filling stations) was put in place for it. Then the government realised it was losing money and stopped the tax benefits; as a result, the entire LPG system broke down and now no-one uses it (for cars at least!). I wonder what the car market would look like nowadays if LPG had developed into a more mature market?

LPG had some benefits - reduced particulates, for instance - but it is not a carbon neutral or even reduced carbon fuel - note the P - petroleum - gas from crude oil. It has therefore been rendered basically redundant by cleaner petrol engines and diesel particulate filters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Oct 2021 ==

Also, in Sweden I believe you can run cars of ethanol, which is far cheaper than petrol/diesel (at least, it was when I was last there about 10 years ago and one of the family friends we were staying with had a car powered by it). I wonder why that hasn't caught on here?

Ethanol is being added to petrol, which causes issues for some old cars but not modern ones. That's what E10 petrol is - 10% ethanol.

 

[ABB125]

Ethanol is being added to petrol, which causes issues for some old cars but not modern ones. That's what E10 petrol is - 10% ethanol.

I know - but this was something like 90% (or even 100%) ethanol.

 

[DustyBin]

Some get high on drugs, some on alcohol, others on petrol vapours!

At school kids got high on glue. Each to their own I guess!

No wonder they only gave us Pritt Stick!

 

[reddragon]

No wonder they only gave us Pritt Stick!

Yeah we lost 2 in my school in 1 year to evo-stick!

 

[Factotum]

For now! Having just written a whole paragraph about how automotive technology (and similar) has marched forward relentlessly, it's a bold person who asserts we've reached the end of the journey!

And an equally bold one who can be confident that the journey is going in the correct direction.

And an even bolder one who is confident that renewables can meet all our energy needs in the foreseeable future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Oct 2021 ==

I believe nuclear fusion is 'around 20 years away'

As it has been most of my long life, ever since Zeta.

 

[jon0844]

There was an interesting interview on tv today with the owner of one of the biggest used car dealerships in the UK. He will NOT TOUCH electric cars for several reasons. Not least the circa £10,000 it costs for a new battery plus fitting. Dealer margins are too fragile to guarantee a used car which could need a £12,000 labour and parts repair quite quickly.
He will not buy in a single one. So is he a fool too? Naive? No. Electric cars will be outdated before long and too many people have fallen for it. 5 or so years ago diesel was the only way to go they told us and look how fast they changed their minds. Electric everything is unsustainable because you need gas or coal to back up the unreliable ''FREE'' energy. No way can we rely on wind and solar for millions of cars and trucks, don't be daft.
Hydrogen MAY be the answer though. May...
For now i'll carry on loving my 8+ litre V10 muscle car, my 1300cc race replica Ducati and my newly bought Honda 1970s CBX-6, fitted with a screaming 6 into 1 pipe! Beautiful!
Electric one speed vehicles are just SO boring.

What programme was this? Is it on catch-up anywhere? I'd love to see that, and see how he can claim a car might suddenly need a new battery when batteries don't just die overnight - and are demonstrably proving to be lasting longer than predicted (not surprising when they're guaranteed for a certain number of charges/usage, and so the manufacturer will have quite a 'safety margin').

I'd love to know why someone would think a battery pack would just stop working (bar a major defect in production, which would become known very quickly) when we use Lithium batteries in so many devices now, and nobody suddenly finds that their laptop/phone/smartwatch or whatever simply fails to power up one day because the battery went from 90-95% health to 0%.

 

[Meole]

I know - but this was something like 90% (or even 100%) ethanol.

Brazil pioneered the 100% ethanol autos.

 

[reddragon]

For now i'll carry on loving my 8+ litre V10 muscle car, my 1300cc race replica Ducati and my newly bought Honda 1970s CBX-6, fitted with a screaming 6 into 1 pipe! Beautiful!
Electric one speed vehicles are just SO boring.

Bad news (for you), your cars will be banned from the roads in 2040!