Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[trebor79]

That isn't really the advantage of them; the advantage of them is hot water on demand at mains pressure. For instance they are excellent for having a good quality, high pressure rain shower without kludges like pumps, though an unvented cylinder is a reasonable substitute.

Unvented cylinder is the best solution (previous house had that).
The reality with combis is that you waste tonnes of water waiting for the thing to fire up and get the primary heat exchanger circuit hot before it even starts heating the water going to the tap. Then the boiler itself is usually on a relatively remote outer wall, rather than a cylinder in the centre of the house so there tends to be more pipework to get hot too. And then the water temperature is all over the place if you vary the tap output (I know more modern boilers will control to a set point, but it's never brilliant).
Finally, once you start to exceed the capacity of the boiler, the water temperature drops, so that shower can get rather frigid.

I put a pump in on our gravity fed system. It was cheaper than replumbing it all properly (much of what should be 22mm pipe has been done in 15mm), have had no issues at all with it and you can barely hear it running. It does all of the hot water outlets, and all of the cold water outlets that are fed from the loft tank. You can shower to your hearts content whilst someone else runs a bath or does the washing up, something a combi would never be able to do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unvented cylinder is the best solution (previous house had that).
The reality with combis is that you waste tonnes of water waiting for the thing to fire up and get the primary heat exchanger circuit hot before it even starts heating the water going to the tap.

Some have a well insulated built-in mini-cylinder that they keep warm to avoid that issue. Mine does, but I turned it off as I haven't found a need for it and it wastes energy keeping it hot. I suppose it does depend on the length of the pipe run, which to my bathroom is quite short because it's in the loft above it and to one side.

And then the water temperature is all over the place if you vary the tap output (I know more modern boilers will control to a set point, but it's never brilliant).

It is on newer modulating boilers e.g. Worcester Bosch Greenstar and newer. I don't even have a thermostatic shower mixer (because combis sometimes "fight" with them) and flushing the bog makes no difference to temperature even though it affects flow, unlike my parents' house when going off the tank. I think a lot of people have had bad experiences with cheap/old combis and haven't tried a modern one - certainly the one that was in my house when I moved in suffered all of those problems, being both a budget and old product.

Finally, once you start to exceed the capacity of the boiler, the water temperature drops, so that shower can get rather frigid.

That is just a matter of choosing an appropriate capacity of boiler and not skimping to save a few quid.

I put a pump in on our gravity fed system. It was cheaper than replumbing it all properly (much of what should be 22mm pipe has been done in 15mm), have had no issues at all with it and you can barely hear it running. It does all of the hot water outlets, and all of the cold water outlets that are fed from the loft tank. You can shower to your hearts content whilst someone else runs a bath or does the washing up, something a combi would never be able to do.

Washing up? How quaint!

 

[py_megapixel]

What was the topic of this thread again?

(Not a criticism - I'm just not sure how we've got here!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the topic of this thread again?

(Not a criticism - I'm just not sure how we've got here!)

Many of the things relating to (issues with and benefits of) switching to EVs also occur with other "greening" measures e.g. home heating. But yes you are right we should get back on track

 

[reddragon]

Its not possible, China are terrible

After having electrified its entire taxi and bus fleet, #Shenzhen is now changing all its sanitation vehicles to #EVs Next step (already ongoing) is the electrification of the very polluting construction vehicles.

https://twitter.com/ShenzhenCity/status/1447400824540471304

Or maybe not?

 

[Bald Rick]

A small milestone for me tonight. For the last few months I have often counted how many ‘pure’ EVs I see being driven on the main road stretch of my walk back from the station (approx 1km). It’s been trending upwards for the last couple of months, and recently has been, typically 4 or 5. Well today it broke double figures with 11, consisting of:

3 x BMW i3
2 x VW ID3
2 x Jaguar I Pace
1 each of:
Renault Zoe
Fiat 500 electric
Kia eNero
Audi etron

And no Teslas, which was the big surprise!

So to be back on topic - clearly they are selling, and selling well.

 

[reddragon]

I've been counting since 2016.

School walk was 1, just mine now its 6-8
Station was 2-3 now its often 10+

 

[DustyBin]

In answer to an earlier poster saying he would only buy German, this report on a BMW explains why not!



Spoiler

I'm not sure if you're referring to me (apologies if not) but if so I presume you missed my reply at the time:

Just to be clear, I've never bought a German car. I have had a few large BMWs and Audis as company cars when I've had no choice but I generally find them over-rated. I'd say BMW are the best of the bunch but some of my colleagues would disagree; I'd take driving dynamics over a plush interior which is why I prefer BMW to Audi. None of them are perfect, they are fashionable though. I'm not sure what's outstanding about the Mercedes EQA incidentally, it looks rather ordinary to me?

The MG5 really isn't equal to cars nearly twice it's price. Keeping strictly to EVs that would include the likes of the Tesla Model 3, Mustang Mach-E and new BMW i4. These cars are in a completely different league in every department. It's not just styling as you claim; build quality and chassis development are two further areas in which the likes of MG lag a long, long way behind.

You may be correct regarding the future of PSA (although the French will always buy them). I'm not sure there's much appetite in the West though for Chinese products beyond the cheap tat sold online. Of course, most of us have items manufactured in China, it's practically impossible to avoid, but they're not Chinese brands and that's the difference.

If I were to order an EV right now it would be a Model 3, i4 or Mach-E although the crossover styling of the latter is a big problem for me.

 

[BananaRepublic]

That MG5 is already being replaced by a heavily facelifted update.
Completely new nose and front end.
New, improved quality and more up-to-date interior.
New infotainment system.
Larger battery with improved range.

The Chinese are not hanging around, when it comes to improving their product and moving ahead with technological innovations.

 

[reddragon]

That MG5 is already being replaced by a heavily facelifted update.
Completely new nose and front end.
New, improved quality and more up-to-date interior.
New infotainment system.
Larger battery with improved range.

The Chinese are not hanging around, when it comes to improving their product and moving ahead with technological innovations.

You are referring to the new MGZS arriving from Nov 1st, 72kw battery and 273 miles range. The MG5 refresh is just the body & infotainment system in late 2022

Each step the Chinese take makes the car look so much better than public transport.

The BYD Dolphin, a Fiesta sized car is an even bigger risk. It's £11k + import duty for a car able to do nearly 200 miles with a lot of tech. Coming next year!

 

[Factotum]

Each step the Chinese take makes the car look so much better than public transport.

Damn cunning these Chinese. Able to dissolve traffic jams and queues

 

[reddragon]

Damn cunning these Chinese. Able to dissolve traffic jams and queues

No but they seem to be able to built 25,000 miles of high speed railway quicker than we can do 100 and build 500,000 electric buses when we assemble a few dozen bodies on their chassis. Now if only we hadn't outsourced everything to China eh?

Even our trains from Japan apparently crack apart and only have a design life of 15 years.

If we want the railways to survive very cheap motoring, we'll have to act or it'll be Beeching 2. That'll be taxation and investing in the railways with a much lower unit cost. We cannot continue to make things at 5-10x the cost of China, or we will become a 3rd world country.

The Chinese did offer to build HS2 at a fraction of our costs! Not sure their methods would be that acceptable though!

 

[BananaRepublic]

You are referring to the new MGZS arriving from Nov 1st, 72kw battery and 273 miles range. The MG5 refresh is just the body & infotainment system in late 2022.....

I was referring to the MG5 and not the ZS update.
I see that the range and battery update, has already been introduced on the current version and was being publicised in the motoring press in July.

The facelifted MG5 gets a new interior as well as the external refresh. New dash, new infotainment system, new centre console, new interior door panels etc.
As you say, due here in 2022.

Another Chinese manufacturer already delivering cars in some European markets (e.g. Norway), is relatively new start up, XPeng.
They've attracted attention with their early offerings, the G3 SUV and P7 sport saloon.

It looks like the Chinese are holding back until they have the product quality to be able to come in to Europe and clean up.
If they're allowed to.

 

[37424]

You are referring to the new MGZS arriving from Nov 1st, 72kw battery and 273 miles range. The MG5 refresh is just the body & infotainment system in late 2022

Each step the Chinese take makes the car look so much better than public transport.

The BYD Dolphin, a Fiesta sized car is an even bigger risk. It's £11k + import duty for a car able to do nearly 200 miles with a lot of tech. Coming next year!

Yes the new ZS does look like a significant improvement in the areas most needed, but I am reluctant to buy Chinese.

 

[Bald Rick]

but I am reluctant to buy Chinese.

Just for cars or other consumer products too? (Genuine question, I’m not trying to make a point!)

 

[yorkie]

Just for cars or other consumer products too? (Genuine question, I’m not trying to make a point!)

I suggest that this is discussed in a separate thread

 

[trebor79]

You are referring to the new MGZS arriving from Nov 1st, 72kw battery and 273 miles range. The MG5 refresh is just the body & infotainment system in late 2022

Each step the Chinese take makes the car look so much better than public transport.

The BYD Dolphin, a Fiesta sized car is an even bigger risk. It's £11k + import duty for a car able to do nearly 200 miles with a lot of tech. Coming next year!

Yes the current ZS is a bit lacking in battery range. That new model will do well I think, if the pricing remains competitive.

Yes the new ZS does look like a significant improvement in the areas most needed, but I am reluctant to buy Chinese.

I completely discounted MG for that very reason. But I asked myself "Why? Almost every other durable product I use was made in China - my phone, my laptop, my tablet, and all very high quality indeed". And then I sat in a Tesla and was distinctly unimpressed at the shonky build quality. You can tell the MG has been engineered to a price - slightly wider shut lines than you'd find on a German car, for example. But at least they are consistent all the way round unlike a lot of Teslas, and I bet the air conditioning doesn't get stuck set at 23 degrees (that was a very sweaty day out in my bosses car in the summer).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely discounted MG for that very reason. But I asked myself "Why? Almost every other durable product I use was made in China - my phone, my laptop, my tablet, and all very high quality indeed". And then I sat in a Tesla and was distinctly unimpressed at the shonky build quality. You can tell the MG has been engineered to a price - slightly wider shut lines than you'd find on a German car, for example. But at least they are consistent all the way round unlike a lot of Teslas, and I bet the air conditioning doesn't get stuck set at 23 degrees (that was a very sweaty day out in my bosses car in the summer).

"Made in China" as you say doesn't mean junk - again as you say the iPhone is a superbly engineered piece of kit and of exquisitely high quality and is made in China. The problem is engineering things down to a price. China will make anything you like at any price range you like, you have to get the spec right (remember the old "cheap, fast, high quality - pick any two" thing).

I am not convinced the MGs have done so. Though to be fair the worst build quality I've seen in a vehicle was a Land Rover Defender built in Birmingham, and close behind are French cars.

 

[Factotum]

No but they seem to be able to built 25,000 miles of high speed railway quicker than we can do 100 and build 500,000 electric buses when we assemble a few dozen bodies on their chassis. Now if only we hadn't outsourced everything to China eh?

Even our trains from Japan apparently crack apart and only have a design life of 15 years.

If we want the railways to survive very cheap motoring, we'll have to act or it'll be Beeching 2. That'll be taxation and investing in the railways with a much lower unit cost. We cannot continue to make things at 5-10x the cost of China, or we will become a 3rd world country.

The Chinese did offer to build HS2 at a fraction of our costs! Not sure their methods would be that acceptable though!

The point that I was making is that it is the traffic congestion that makes me choose public transport.
If motoring was free I would still travel by train.

You would have to factor in the cost of several jails if you gave the Chinese the go ahead to build HS2 using their methods

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point that I was making is that it is the traffic congestion that makes me choose public transport.
If motoring was free I would still travel by train.

This is true generally, proven by the fact that over 70s (or whatever the age for a bus pass is) still own and use cars. Price is not the only factor; often it's a very small factor, or a simple "do I have enough money to do this*" rather than "does this represent best value". If price was the only factor no Manchester-London Anytime tickets would ever be sold, for instance.

* Often not even that and just "can I borrow enough money to do this". Probably true of well over 80% of car purchases; the vast majority are on finance of some kind and not cash purchases, and of those cash purchases the vast amount of the cash comes from an unsecured personal loan taken out specifically for the purchase.

 

[37424]

"Made in China" as you say doesn't mean junk - again as you say the iPhone is a superbly engineered piece of kit and of exquisitely high quality and is made in China. The problem is engineering things down to a price. China will make anything you like at any price range you like, you have to get the spec right (remember the old "cheap, fast, high quality - pick any two" thing).

I am not convinced the MGs have done so. Though to be fair the worst build quality I've seen in a vehicle was a Land Rover Defender built in Birmingham, and close behind are French cars.

Was that an Old Defender or New Defender though? I would imagine it would have been difficult to build the Old Defender to the fit and finish standards we expect today given old the design was.

My concern about MG would not only the build and reliability quality but also do we really want to become dependent on the Chinese for vehicle manufacture to the same extant as has happened in other sectors such as computers and consumer electronics?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was that an Old Defender or New Defender though? I would imagine it would have been difficult to build the Old Defender to the fit and finish standards we expect today given old the design was.

Old, but it was generally sloppy stuff that was easy to fix, e.g. not bothering to line things up properly before banging a screw in.

See also rattling panels on buses, which are most often caused by maintenance staff being too lazy to do the job properly / not being given enough time to do the job properly.

 

[Roast Veg]

My concern about MG would not only the build and reliability quality but also do we really want to become dependent on the Chinese for vehicle manufacture to the same extant as has happened in other sectors such as computers and consumer electronics?

SAIC have a London design office, as well as the Longbridge R&D center, both of which seem to be of quite important strategic value to the company as a whole (both in China and the UK). Not manufacturing, but quite a few skilled positions firmly rooted over here.

 

[reddragon]

SAIC have a London design office, as well as the Longbridge R&D center, both of which seem to be of quite important strategic value to the company as a whole (both in China and the UK). Not manufacturing, but quite a few skilled positions firmly rooted over here.

Mg will in the end follow Nissan / Toyota / Honda and build MGs here. Maybe only Brexit has stopped them so far?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mg will in the end follow Nissan / Toyota / Honda and build MGs here. Maybe only Brexit has stopped them so far?

If we want them to build here (or anyone to build anything here for sale here), it is in our power to apply tariffs to fully built cars but not to components.

 

[gg1]

Mg will in the end follow Nissan / Toyota / Honda and build MGs here. Maybe only Brexit has stopped them so far?

I'd be very surprised if that happens in the foreseeable future.

Japan and Britain have similar labour costs so on that basis it made sense for Japanese manufacturers to set up British plants producing cars predominantly for British and European markets. With Chinese labour costs being significantly lower, the economics of moving production here don't add up.

Even if changing economic conditions did make it worthwhile to move productions outside of China, a plant within the EU is more likely than Britain.

 

[37424]

SAIC have a London design office, as well as the Longbridge R&D center, both of which seem to be of quite important strategic value to the company as a whole (both in China and the UK). Not manufacturing, but quite a few skilled positions firmly rooted over here.

Well yes but in overall terms its pretty small compared to the contribution of some of the other car companies as for MG assembling cars here I doubt it, if you want a European base go to an EU country it makes no sense coming here post Brexit.

 

[JamesT]

Mg will in the end follow Nissan / Toyota / Honda and build MGs here. Maybe only Brexit has stopped them so far?

Though Honda closed their UK plant and moved production back to Japan. Partly due to the EU-Japan trade treaty that removes some of the barriers to producing cars in Japan and importing them into the EU.

 

[Roast Veg]

Well yes but in overall terms its pretty small compared to the contribution of some of the other car companies

Is it? Whilst I don't happen to have any data to back it up, I think you'll find quite a few manufacturers with less of a UK workforce, and certainly with fewer UK senior positions. Cherry picking some examples: would you really prefer to buy a Tesla/Honda/Suzuki/Mazda just because their HQ isn't in China?

 

[37424]

Is it? Whilst I don't happen to have any data to back it up, I think you'll find quite a few manufacturers with less of a UK workforce, and certainly with fewer UK senior positions. Cherry picking some examples: would you really prefer to buy a Tesla/Honda/Suzuki/Mazda just because their HQ isn't in China?

I know someone who used to work for MG and according to them they did have a reasonable number of Engineers that worked for them in the UK when they first took over the remains of the Rover Group, along with a bit of UK finishing on some of their early models, but since then the number of engineers has been reduced with more work in China, and the part assembly/finishing stopped some time ago.

There are plenty of companies which make a substancial contribution to UK Jobs far more than SIAC be they assembly or Engineering jobs, along with UK Suppliers, such as JLR/Ford/Vauxhall/BMW/Nissan and Toyota.

And yes I would prefer to buy a Tesla than an MG and yes I know Tesla have a Chinese plant but that's not the point I am making.