LNER diversion via Carlisle

[Falcon1200]

* This did cause some amusement on the train at Newark, when a party of "Toffs" got on and DEMANDED that the train manager find them some seats as they'd pre-booked.
Tarquin & Cressida (party organisers) were not impressed, and were going to "write a stiff letter of complaint"

I would not call the regular, repeated failure of what, when it works, is a very good reservation system, in any way amusing; The LNER train I travelled on last Saturday (9th October) also had no reservations displayed, meaning that no sooner had I sat down than another passenger claimed my seat ! The Train Manager was reduced to going through the train and asking passengers without reservations where they were going to, so that he could tell them whether they would have to move or not. When passengers have bought tickets and reserved seats only to find them occupied because the reservation system has failed they are quite entitled, whether 'toffs' or anybody else, to be annoyed.

 

[trebor79]

Is the Guard not obliged to do that anyway under LNER’s ‘seat guarantee’?

No, the seat guarantee offers monetary compensation, not a physical guarantee of a seat.

 

[Cantab26]

No, the seat guarantee offers monetary compensation, not a physical guarantee of a seat.

I was referring to the Guard finding alternative seats for passengers, which as far as I can see the passengers would be entitled to expect him to do.

cf. LNER seat guarantee:

If that happens, and our staff can't track you down an alternative seat…

If your reserved seat isn’t available, and the Train Guard can’t find you another seat…

 

[Stampy]

I would not call the regular, repeated failure of what, when it works, is a very good reservation system, in any way amusing; The LNER train I travelled on last Saturday (9th October) also had no reservations displayed, meaning that no sooner had I sat down than another passenger claimed my seat ! The Train Manager was reduced to going through the train and asking passengers without reservations where they were going to, so that he could tell them whether they would have to move or not. When passengers have bought tickets and reserved seats only to find them occupied because the reservation system has failed they are quite entitled, whether 'toffs' or anybody else, to be annoyed.

Problem was, the "Toffs" did NOT have seats reserved, and barged their way (party of about 20) to the doors on the train and onto the train - into the seats and "out with the Champers and Caviar"....

They were also "miffed off" that this train would NOT make a special stop at Newark for them...

Me? I had a seat in coach "F" - a coach that DIDN'T exist....

 

[trebor79]

I was referring to the Guard finding alternative seats for passengers, which as far as I can see the passengers would be entitled to expect him to do.

cf. LNER seat guarantee:

Yeah, well if the train is full he isn't going to be able to do that.
Regardless of any "Seat Guarantee" (which is compensation not a physical guarantee of a seat), expecting the staff to find you a non-existent seat and then getting all entitled and huffy when there aren't any to be found is a bit pathetic really.

 

[DanNCL]

No, the seat guarantee offers monetary compensation, not a physical guarantee of a seat.

Yeah, well if the train is full he isn't going to be able to do that.
Regardless of any "Seat Guarantee" (which is compensation not a physical guarantee of a seat), expecting the staff to find you a non-existent seat and then getting all entitled and huffy when there aren't any to be found is a bit pathetic really.

The seat guarantee is exactly what the name suggests, a guarantee. The compensation is for when LNER are unable to honour the seat guarantee.

Other customers without reservations may be asked to vacate their seats for someone with a reservation who had been left without a seat, although in practice this rarely happens.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Other customers without reservations may be asked to vacate their seats for someone with a reservation who had been left without a seat, although in practice this rarely happens.

Is unauthorised occupation of a seat validly reserved by someone else not still a byelaw offence?

 

[Wolfie]

Apologies, internal and external displays should be working, but seat reservations will not display on any Anglo Scots services during diverts.
All Scottish services will show either Aberdeen as a destination or Kings Cros depending on direction of travel. Train manager needs to remove calling points to match service, but Aberdeen, Carlisle and London will always display.

Train managers should make manual announcements to advise customers of correct calling points.

Re your last para that doesn't help anyone with hearing issues in the slightest.

 

[DanNCL]

Is unauthorised occupation of a seat validly reserved by someone else not still a byelaw offence?

It is a byelaw offence but is rarely enforced.

 

[Wolfie]

Is it really impossible to configure the screens to display the correct journey information?

Theres only one answer to that - it’s not impossible (indeed you could configure it to say whatever you want) it just requires more effort than LNER/Hitachi appear to be willing to make.

Correct visual information is important as those who are deaf or have limited hearing rely on it, likewise those who speak little/no English will also often find visual screens much easier to understand than announcements.

It really isn’t the end of the world if the automated announcements are switched off and the guard (or “train manager” as LNER likes to call them) makes manual announcements, indeed that’s standard procedure on the Mark 4 sets anyway.

Absolutely.

 

[Falcon1200]

Problem was, the "Toffs" did NOT have seats reserved, and barged their way (party of about 20) to the doors on the train and onto the train - into the seats and "out with the Champers and Caviar"....

Thanks for the update, if they had no reserved seats then it was tough (or toff) luck !

 

[221129]

Other customers without reservations may be asked to vacate their seats for someone with a reservation who had been left without a seat, although in practice this rarely happens.

Although I don't believe there to be any basis for this, so anyone in their right mind would ignore such a request unless the TM was willing to upgrade them.

 

[Ianigsy]

The LNER train I travelled on from Doncaster to Peterborough last Saturday had no reservations. I had a standard single from the LNER flash sale for Coach D, except that when our 5-car Azuma turned up, D was first class.

I found a seat in standard however if I'd been asked to move, I'd have gladly offered subject to being able to sit in the seat I'd reserved....

 

[800001]

The LNER train I travelled on from Doncaster to Peterborough last Saturday had no reservations. I had a standard single from the LNER flash sale for Coach D, except that when our 5-car Azuma turned up, D was first class.

I found a seat in standard however if I'd been asked to move, I'd have gladly offered subject to being able to sit in the seat I'd reserved....

Coach D is half standard, half first class. Always is regardless of if it is a 5 or a 10.

 

[island]

Although I don't believe there to be any basis for this, so anyone in their right mind would ignore such a request unless the TM was willing to upgrade them.

It’s a byelaw offence to remain in a seat if it’s marked reserved and you’re not the person whom it’s reserved for.

 

[221129]

It’s a byelaw offence to remain in a seat if it’s marked reserved and you’re not the person whom it’s reserved for.

But if its not marked as reserved then the TM has no business in turfing out others. The poster I quoted didn't mention if they were reserved but not displayed or completely unreserved.

 

[yorkie]

I would not call the regular, repeated failure of what, when it works, is a very good reservation system, in any way amusing; The LNER train I travelled on last Saturday (9th October) also had no reservations displayed, meaning that no sooner had I sat down than another passenger claimed my seat ! The Train Manager was reduced to going through the train and asking passengers without reservations where they were going to, so that he could tell them whether they would have to move or not. When passengers have bought tickets and reserved seats only to find them occupied because the reservation system has failed they are quite entitled, whether 'toffs' or anybody else, to be annoyed.

No-one has the right to move anyone from any seat shown as available.

LNER train managers are usually very good at stating people should sit in any vacant seat. Anyone with a reservation unable to find a seat can either be upgraded to 1st if seats are available to the guard will endorse their tickets
for compensation under the seat guarantee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2021 ==

But if its not marked as reserved then the TM has no business in turfing out others. The poster I quoted didn't mention if they were reserved but not displayed or completely unreserved.

Absolutely and I have never known any LNER TMs do this. I won't rule out the possibility of there being one or two rogue TMs acting inappropriately but this isn't something I've ever witnessed on LNER.

 

[DanNCL]

But if its not marked as reserved then the TM has no business in turfing out others. The poster I quoted didn't mention if they were reserved but not displayed or completely unreserved.

Absolutely and I have never known any LNER TMs do this. I won't rule out the possibility of there being one or two rogue TMs acting inappropriately but this isn't something I've ever witnessed on LNER.

Admittedly a long time ago now (back in the VTEC era) but I did once witness this on the ECML and thought it was something TMs were allowed to do. Reassuring to know I was wrong!

 

[Falcon1200]

No-one has the right to move anyone from any seat shown as available.

I agree ! But what is the situation when the reservation system, as seems to happen far too often, fails ? Passengers without reservations could surely be excused for thinking that every seat is 'Available' ? The bottom line is that if TOCs offer seat reservations, and moreover tell passengers that 'reservations are highly recommended' (if at least no longer mandatory), they must ensure that the systems work.

 

[virgintrain1]

Hope not too off topic but blimey all these TMS problems. For all Voyagers faults, the TMS is very open amendments. The train manager can manually add and remove stations as needed including destination and won't muck up the reservations. A 'trip' can be added fully manually, station by station with a retail code/ mission number and if all else fails you can take control of any and every screen with the keyboard and type the appropriate message. You can also tell / trick the train selecting where it is. The IET TMS seems very backwards in terms of the train crew's ability to control it. Although don't get me wrong engineering works can be a pain having to enter all the amended times station by station and this of course can result it human errors.

 

[yorkie]

I agree ! But what is the situation when the reservation system, as seems to happen far too often, fails ? Passengers without reservations could surely be excused for thinking that every seat is 'Available' ?

If there are no reservations, there are no reservations.

The bottom line is that if TOCs offer seat reservations, and moreover tell passengers that 'reservations are highly recommended' (if at least no longer mandatory), they must ensure that the systems work.

I agree they should make best efforts to do so.

Whether they are doing so is open to question, though I do not see how you can guarantee 100% uptime of any system, even a reliable one!

 

[Starmill]

It’s a byelaw offence to remain in a seat if it’s marked reserved and you’re not the person whom it’s reserved for.

Exactly right. So of course if there's no notice that a seat is reserved for a particular person or people who aren't you, it's not an offence to sit there even if someone would like for you to move because they say they reserved it.

 

[38Cto15E]

On Saturday I was on the 0755 from Inverness, The Highland Chieftain. The display on the exterior of the coaches showed a Carlisle stop, but at Edinburgh it was announced that Carlisle was only a crew stop and not a passenger stop. The interior station dispaly was a mess until around Perth, it was showing Northallerton Doncaster etc etc as stops for this service, but it was late rectified.

The service slipped at most stations enroute to Perth, here there was a medical related extended stop so we reached Edinburgh about 20 minutes late.

FWIW, the Azuma does struggle to keep time on Diesel in the Highlands, also I wonder if Scotrail platform staff are as entusiastic as they would be for Scotrail services.
With being late, control cancelled the Edinburgh Circle departure and we went back through Haymarket, a good move by control but wiped the smile off my face, however this meant we were on time arriving in Carlisle.
Here there seemed to be platform staff ensuring no passengers tried to board or leave the train.
Finally, as we were Standard class leading to Carlisle, I also missed out on the High level Bridge Circle also.